Universal Health Care

[The Leader]

I think Coolie has taught us all a valuable lesson here today: You don't need to have knowledge or even facts to back your side of a debate. You don't even need to debate. All you have to do is claim to have proven your point and then you win!

[The Leader]

Do we agree on there be death panels yet? :love

Peter Orzsag. <---use...google.
No, because you're wrong and we know who Peter Orzsag is. Do you actually think that we don't know who he is or are you just being a manchild?

[Dimnos]

Coolie, describe in single words only the good things that come into your mind about... your mother.

:?

[Dimnos]

Gargamel <-----Google him.

[Colonel Flagg]

Damn. Missed 2 hours, and missed 2 pages. That'll teach me to get some work done. :)

Thanks, Dim, for noticing that I try to be truthful to the spirit of Coolie's messages by quoting him exactly. He should be accusing himself of twisting his own words, and not "little old me".

[Colonel Flagg]

I think Coolie has taught us all a valuable lesson here today: You don't need to have knowledge or even facts to back your side of a debate. You don't even need to debate. All you have to do is claim to have proven your point and then you win!

WA BAM!

[Dimnos]

Coolie, describe in single words only the good things that come into your mind about... your mother.


:confused:

[TheCoolinator]

....

Come on flagg.....get over it dude. Its embarrassing.

[Dimnos]

Coolie, describe in single words only the good things that come into your mind about... your mother.


:confused:

[TheCoolinator]

I believe it's a form of genocide no matter how you twist my words. The rationing of care by this new commission will be a federally mandated death board. With immunities of course.

Rationing care against the US population = Genocide. Don't know how else to explain it to you people. :sleep




Why didn't you take them to court? Why didn't you fight for your family? Or find another insurance plan?

See, you need to read what's going on. From the top, The new and improved government death panel WILL be in charge of deciding what tests, treatments, cures, and surgeries are allowed. If they are NOT allowed.....pay close attention now.....then your insurance...here it comes.......WONT COVER YOU. Tada! Get it? So, they'll deny you before you even need any of these medical wonders to keep on living.

Please, Read the Article. On the Death Panels and look up Peter Orzsag

For Colon Flagg.

[Dimnos]

Coolie, describe in single words only the good things that come into your mind about... your mother.


:confused:

[Colonel Flagg]

For Colon Flagg.

Whoopsie. Did I hit a nerve? :lol

For the record, I've already "fixed" the HMO problem - I'm now on a PPO plan that does not require referrals. I pay quite a bit for the privilege too. >:

Also for the record, the HMO plan that you so quickly analyzed and ordered me to "take to court" was discontinued by my company, chiefly because lack of employee participation. It seems that when presented with the choice, most employees here felt that they didn't want this kind of coverage.

Just saying "no" sometimes works as well as yelling in a sarcastic humor forum - oh wait, that isn't working, now is it?

And, I read the article, and, as I said before, I think it's horseshit. :)

Come on flagg.....get over it dude. Its embarrassing.

You're right, it is, but not for me. I'm actually enjoying this. :)

[Dimnos]

I bet next he is going to call you an idiot for not knowing what an HMO is. :lol

[Colonel Flagg]

Short for HOMO. As in "one of THOSE people."

Right? :confused

[Zhukov]

There was an horrific accident on the road on my way to work today. A truck lost control and plowed into a family car on it's way interstate. :\

[Zhukov]

The driver of the car was killed instantly and the two passengers died later in hospital. :\

[Dimnos]

DUDE! Same fucking shit happened to me two days ago.

[Zhukov]

The driver of the truck has been accused of negligence and genocide. :\



Oh, also, I researched Peter Orszag, and it turns out that he was a lieutenant in the Chilean army during Pinochet's "caravan of death" in the 70s. Rumored to have been highly involved in "Operation Condor" as well as numerous loose trails on ranking assassinations on Soviet diplomats, he now Director of the Office of Management and Budget for President Obama, tasked with forming an elite squad of killers to head the "La muerte del panel" to eliminate the American people as a national group.

Now who looks like an idiot? I guess you guys should just read the facts once and a while.

[Dimnos]

http://www.orszagasm.com/

[Colonel Flagg]

Coolie will be so proud. You guys finally "get it." I guess I'm the one with egg on my face. :ashamed

[TheCoolinator]

Whoopsie. Did I hit a nerve?

No, I'm not upset. Somewhat disappointed, yes. But definitely not upset.

For the record, I've already "fixed" the HMO problem - I'm now on a PPO plan that does not require referrals. I pay quite a bit for the privilege too.

I don't know why you would take a shitty plan like that in the first place.

And I don't see healthcare as a "priviledge", I believe it to be a right. That's why I wish they just expanded medicare instead of creating this healthcare monstrosity which will effect negatively every working family in the USA.

:sleep

Also for the record, the HMO plan that you so quickly analyzed and ordered me to "take to court" was discontinued by my company, chiefly because lack of employee participation.

Wish more people would protest with their wallets like that. The main obstacle comes from having to convince people its a bad idea. Usually only after they get screwed they realize that and by that time its too late.

And, I read the article, and, as I said before, I think it's horseshit.

Ok, but can you disprove it?

[The Leader]

Can you prove it?

[TheCoolinator]

Can you prove it?

I can't disprove it. :lol

[The Leader]

Have you tried?

[TheCoolinator]

Have you tried?

Yes,
Have you? :confused:

[The Leader]

Stop being such a genocide. :rolleyes

[TheCoolinator]

Stop being such a genocide.

I'm not on Obama / Orzsag's Rationing commission. So, I guess I'm innocent.

[Colonel Flagg]

No, I'm not upset. Somewhat disappointed, yes. But definitely not upset.

Dude, you changed my name to something derisive and derogatory. Are you sure there's not something more going on here? :Psychoanalysis

I don't know why you would take a shitty plan like that in the first place.

It was cheap. :dunce

I did it back when I was young, naive and foolish. About your age, in fact, coincidentally. After I had back surgery and the HMO wanted to deny me the cost of a second opinion I switched off that screwed up crap. Good thing too, as my son was less than a year old - try getting referrals for things like speech therapy. Not happening. >:

But again, this was 10+ years ago, when some guy named Clinton was getting his rocks off in the oval office. How is it that it's just now becoming cachet to call this crap "death panels"?

Answer - it's not, it's called "managed care".

In short, you're crazy if you think this isn't the way things have been for at least the last 10+ years. Nothing new or newly evil here, just the same old same old.

And I don't see healthcare as a "priviledge", I believe it to be a right. That's why I wish they just expanded medicare instead of creating this healthcare monstrosity which will effect negatively every working family in the USA.

So in other words, you would expand an already flawed and badly mismanaged (and nearly bankrupt) government entitlement program?

Right. :rolleyes

Ok, but can you disprove it?

Only insofar as I can research the facts and determine to my own satisfaction that 99% of that article is horseshit. In much the same way as you can read your blogs and columnists and post links to internet sites and determine it to be 100% accurate.

And before you quote me, please refrain from changing my words. I quote you directly, I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same. Plus, next time please spell-check and/or grammar-check your posts. With all due respect, you look like a goofball.

{there I go again, mumbling incoherently. :\}

[TheCoolinator]

It was cheap.

I hope you learned your lesson. You should read things before you start paying into them. Speaking of which...did you read the Healthcare bill? It's only 3000 pages long.


I did it back when I was young, naive and foolish. About your age, in fact, coincidentally.

Did I hit a nerve?


After I had back surgery and the HMO wanted to deny me the cost of a second opinion I switched off that screwed up crap.

Switched off a plan you shouldn't have agreed to in the first place....go on...


But again, this was 10+ years ago, when some guy named Clinton was getting his rocks off in the oval office. How is it that it's just now becoming cachet to call this crap "death panels"?

Answer - it's not, it's called "managed care".

The original question was "Does the new Obamacare Health bill contain Death Panels? "

The answer is yes. A commission of 11 government officials will head the commission and proactively deny you and others the care that they are entitled to. Worse then anything before.

This is how it works, Take notes,

The for-profit deregulated insurance companies will command the Government Officials who work on the Death Boards to find out reason to deny you certain costly procedures. Once denied, the for-profit insurance companies will just refer to the death panels to why they are denying you and your family.

Very Simple. How old are you again? And why don't you know this yet?


So in other words, you would expand an already flawed and badly mismanaged (and nearly bankrupt) government entitlement program?

I don't believe it's flawed, just under funded, and I agree, it is badly managed but these things can be fixed. It shouldn't be taken away, just improved upon and then expanded to compete with private insurers to force them to lower their prices while also mandating that they cannot deny care if one pays into the plan.

Healthcare fixed. Next.


Only insofar as I can research the facts and determine to my own satisfaction that 99% of that article is horseshit.

I'll just take that as a "No" you can't disprove it. Call it names, yes (very mature), but disprove it, no.

[Tadao]

If the health care bill was 100 pages fagots would complain that not enough is being done.

You can't read 3000 pages? Oh yeah, you have trouble understanding 1 paragraph.

[TheCoolinator]

If the health care bill was 100 pages fagots would complain that not enough is being done.

You can't read 3000 pages? Oh yeah, you have trouble understanding 1 paragraph.

Rabbits are prey animals. :lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

[Dimnos]

The original question was "Does the new Obamacare Health bill contain Death Panels? "

The answer is yes. A commission of 11 government officials will head the commission and proactively deny you and your family the care that they are entitled to. Worse then anything before.

The answer is no. Not to mention you have no fucking clue what they are or are not going to do. And what the fuck do you mean "Worse then anything before"? I highly doubt you know what the fuck anyone has done before. What is the worst injury you have ever had? Did you have to try and get the government to pay for it?

I have to agree with Kahl. The difference between the people who ration out care under Obamacare vs the ones at insurance companies is irrelevant. Hell if anything the fact it will be rationed out by the government means they will be less worried about making the company a profit. Which means your probably more likely to get covered. You see Medicare/Medicaid already exist and already have government employees who determine whether or not you get covered. Guess what. They cover people who are never going to get better. People who will never get well enough to hold down a job. People who will never be "contributing members of society". Are they left to their fate denied medical aid and coverage? No. Simply no. I still say to call it a "death panel" is a grotesque misconception.







I don't believe it's flawed, just under funded, and I agree, it is badly managed but these things can be fixed. It shouldn't be taken away, just improved upon and then expanded to compete with private insurers to force them to lower their prices while also mandating that they cannot deny care if one pays into the plan.

If anything this will force insurance companies to up their prices just so they can survive against a government agency. If they are losing customers to cheaper government coverage and are forced to pay out more money on every little thing people claim on, they are going to go under really fucking fast.

Healthcare fixed. Next.

Yes. Because anything involving the government and big business is ever that simple. :lol (There isnt an emoticon to convey how much I laughed are you stupidity. I damn near pissed my pants)

Very Simple. How old are you again? And why don't you know this yet?

Call it names, yes (very mature), but disprove it, no.

Wait? What?

All I see is an avalanche of doublethink going on here......

I think your just covering up how long it took you to grasp something so rudimentary. Which I repeated about 40 times.

I'm not the one who made a thread based around condescending to people you just happened to walk by that day and from the amount of times you brought up your beloved "Degree" I think you have some sort of self esteem issue.

You really don't know anything do you Leader?

Oh, and does anyone else get the mental picture of a garden hose shooting out raw sewage every time TheLeader posts something? I guess it's just me.....:|

When things don't fit into your cookie cutter idea of reality you tend to start getting a little confused and revert right back to "left / right".


Do you see? Little Puppet. Do you see how they pull your strings?


Naivety strikes again!



This is all common sense. Please stop writing your little papers and begin to learn how the world really works.

Prove me wrong, o' scholar. Show us what that big "degree" can do then. Come on.

Say something else other than these infantile little snipes and grumbles from the backround. I dare you. :love


If you want to a tool fine but please quit being a hypocrite at least. :rolleyes

[Tadao]

Rabbits are prey animals. :lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fCtU8IV1MuQ/SAd-eCTeMVI/AAAAAAAAAZY/3EjkPjQbYIk/s200/tim.gif

Look, that rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide! It's a killer!

[TheCoolinator]

Some....call me....Tim!

[Colonel Flagg]

If you want to be a tool fine but please quit being a hypocrite at least. :rolleyes

Agreed.

Unfortunately, if I said this it would get ignored. Maybe you'll have better luck?

:notcountingonit

[Colonel Flagg]

Look, that rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide! It's a killer!

99X8WDQWAKg

I never get tired of this clip. About 1:14 in.

[The Leader]

I hope you learned your lesson. You should read things before you start paying into them. Speaking of which...did you read the Healthcare bill? It's only 3000 pages long.

Did I hit a nerve?

Switched off a plan you shouldn't have agreed to in the first place....go on...

The original question was "Does the new Obamacare Health bill contain Death Panels? "

The answer is yes. A commission of 11 government officials will head the commission and proactively deny you and others the care that they are entitled to. Worse then anything before.

This is how it works, Take notes,

The for-profit deregulated insurance companies will command the Government Officials who work on the Death Boards to find out reason to deny you certain costly procedures. Once denied, the for-profit insurance companies will just refer to the death panels to why they are denying you and your family.

Very Simple. How old are you again? And why don't you know this yet?

I don't believe it's flawed, just under funded, and I agree, it is badly managed but these things can be fixed. It shouldn't be taken away, just improved upon and then expanded to compete with private insurers to force them to lower their prices while also mandating that they cannot deny care if one pays into the plan.

Healthcare fixed. Next.

I'll just take that as a "No" you can't disprove it. Call it names, yes (very mature), but disprove it, no.
OH NO I DON'T KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT SO I AM GOING TO TRY TO MAKE FUN OF COLONEL FLAGG AND KEEP ACTING LIKE I AM RIGHT MAYBE IF I KEEP IT UP I WON'T BE WRONG ANYMORE

[TheCoolinator]

Do we agree there is rationing panels in the new Obama Healthcare bill?

[The Leader]

DO WE AGREE THERE IS RATIONING PANELS (AKA DEATH PANELS) IN THE NEW OBAMA HEALTHCARE BILL WHOSE INTENT IS TO SYSTEMATICALLY KILL AMERICA? I WIN YAY

[TheCoolinator]

DO WE AGREE THERE IS RATIONING PANELS (AKA DEATH PANELS) IN THE NEW OBAMA HEALTHCARE BILL WHOSE INTENT IS TO SYSTEMATICALLY KILL AMERICA? I WIN YAY

You're better than this TheLeader. :love Use the force.

[Dimnos]

Rationing panels? Yes. Death panels? No.

[Dimnos]

I have to agree with Kahl. The difference between the people who ration out care under Obamacare vs the ones at insurance companies is irrelevant. Hell if anything the fact it will be rationed out by the government means they will be less worried about making the company a profit. Which means your probably more likely to get covered. You see Medicare/Medicaid already exist and already have government employees who determine whether or not you get covered. Guess what. They cover people who are never going to get better. People who will never get well enough to hold down a job. People who will never be "contributing members of society". Are they left to their fate denied medical aid and coverage? No. Simply no. I still say to call it a "death panel" is a grotesque misconception.

ONCE AGAIN! >:

[The Leader]

But don't you get it Dimnos, rationing = genocide much like sheep = hammer or chair = potato. IT MAKES SENSE

[TheCoolinator]

ONCE AGAIN!

I think you should research more into the Obamacare bill and the Peter Orzsag death commission.

Thanks.

[Dimnos]

OH! HOW DARE YOU MISQUOTE ME AND TWIST MY WORDS AROUND. I SOOOOOOO PUT A DAMN >: IN THERE!

[The Leader]

YES DO MORE RESEARCH BY READING BLOGS AND WEBSITES AND TOTALLY DISREGARDING ANY ACTUAL STUDIES OR READING THE ACTUAL BILL OR LEARNING ABOUT ACTUAL LAW

THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE IS THE TRUTH

[TheCoolinator]

YES DO MORE RESEARCH BY READING BLOGS AND WEBSITES AND TOTALLY DISREGARDING ANY ACTUAL STUDIES OR READING THE ACTUAL BILL OR LEARNING ABOUT ACTUAL LAW

THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE IS THE TRUTH

A lot of caps going on here.

[The Leader]

AMERICA'S HERO COOLIE CONTINUES HIS VIGILANCE

[TheCoolinator]

AMERICA'S HERO COOLIE CONTINUES HIS VIGILANCE

So, I proved the existence of Death Panels headed up by Peter Orzsag to ration care on the US population and TheLeader can't come to terms with this? I'm not holding it over anyones head I just told you what's going on....no need to get all bent outta shape comrade.

[The Leader]

:lol

[Dimnos]

You cant come to terms with the fact you havnt done any of that. :lol

[The Leader]

He keeps insisting that we are all raging over this so I wonder if he is actually all huffy and puffy and assumes that we are as emotionally fragile as he is.

[Colonel Flagg]

:lol

Double :lol:lol

He keeps insisting that we are all raging over this so I wonder if he is actually all huffy and puffy and assumes that we are as emotionally fragile as he is.

Unfortunately, I believe this is true.

But damn it all, I have no links or blogs to quote to prove it. >:

[TheCoolinator]

As usual, the most dangerous parts of ObamaCare aren't receiving the scrutiny they deserve—and one of the least examined is a new commission to tell Congress how to control health spending. Democrats are quietly attempting to impose a "global budget" on Medicare, with radical implications for U.S. medicine.

Like most of Europe, the various health bills stipulate that Congress will arbitrarily decide how much to spend on health care for seniors every year—and then invest an unelected board with extraordinary powers to dictate what is covered and how it will be paid for. White House budget director Peter Orszag calls this Medicare commission "critical to our fiscal future" and "one of the most potent reforms."
.......

Worse, it makes little room for medical innovations. The commission is mandated to go after "sources of excess cost growth," meaning treatments that are too expensive or whose coverage will boost spending. If researchers find a pricey treatment for Alzheimer's in 2020, that might be banned because it would add new costs and bust the global budget. Or it might decide that "Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller," as President Obama put it in June.
.......

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...025055040.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703792304574504020025055040.html)


ehhhh....^ This isn't difficult to comprehend.

Is it wrong? Is it false? Is it Make-believe?

Please...explain to me in an intelligent way why this isn't true...THANX - K - BUHBYE

[The Leader]

A little bit of truth with a little bit of taking comments out of context and then applying them to everything etc. It's just too difficult for you to interpret information is all. ;/

[TheCoolinator]

A little bit of truth with a little bit of taking comments out of context and then applying them to everything etc. It's just too difficult for you to interpret information is all. ;/

I can't get enough of your mental gymnastics. Please show me more. :love

[The Leader]

How many phrases do you have? Can't you come up with something original or are you going to keep using the same tired stuff?

[TheCoolinator]

How many phrases do you have? Can't you come up with something original or are you going to keep using the same tired stuff?

Come on,

Tell me that the rationing panel doesn't exist. Please...tell me how they won't be rationing care and subsequently killing people but instead handing out muffins....come on ....please! Gimme something to laugh at :love

[The Leader]

You weren't talking about a rationing panel, you were talking about a death panel who, in your lack of logic and knowledge, you accuse of carrying out a genocide. Plus you're the one who makes others laugh, I just help to provoke your work.

[Colonel Flagg]

I am going straight to hell for this:

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/palin-vs-obama-death-panels/

Read it Coolinator. Then tell me how this is biased toward the left. It is probably the most balanced treatment of this particular controversy to date. And not only does it provide dirct quotations from the parties involved (Obama, Palin to name two) but it also critiques the spin from BOTH sides of the aisle.

Say what you want about the Annenberg Foundation, this treatment is a lot more balanced and reasonable than any neo-conservative blog you care to quote.

There. I've done what you asked. Now "tear me to shreds". I promise to enjoy it. :)

[TheCoolinator]

You weren't talking about a rationing panel, you were talking about a death panel.

When you ration care what does that do to the person who you are rationing? And what group or population of people will be affected by this rationing panel?




Fart.

Na,

Not even going there. The article doesn't even bring up Peter Orzsag or the Rationing committee.

[The Leader]

When you ration care what does that do to the person who you are rationing? And what group or population of people will be affected by this rationing panel?
What, you don't know?

Na,

Not even going there. The article doesn't even bring up Peter Orzsag or the Rationing committee.
Of course not. You don't want to be shown that you're wrong.:lol

[TheCoolinator]

This year, it is targeting such frivolous luxuries as knee replacements, spinal cord stimulation, a specialized autism therapy and MRIs of the abdomen, pelvis or breasts for cancer.

Here,

Let's make it simple.

What will happen to the people who don't get MRI's to check for cancer?

[The Leader]

But I just read an article on your blog that claimed that stuff like MRI's actually hurt patients.:x

[TheCoolinator]

But I just read an article on your blog that claimed that stuff like MRI's actually hurt patients.

Ummm...

Question:

What will happen to those patients who don't get preventative care?

[The Leader]

But your blog says that those kinds of treatments are bad for people!

[TheCoolinator]

But your blog says that those kinds of treatments are bad for people!

Dodging the question.

Check

and

mate?

[The Leader]

Nope, I'm just pointing out that you are contradicting yourself. Here's a link to your blog. Link (http://the-coolinator-lounge.blogspot.com/2010/04/10-biggest-health-care-lies-in-america.html)
If you're going to discuss things then you should probably know where you stand.

[The Leader]

And here's the answer: According to your blog patients who don't get preventative care are better off than those that do.

[TheCoolinator]

Nope, I'm just pointing out that you are contradicting yourself. Here's a link to your blog. Link (http://the-coolinator-lounge.blogspot.com/2010/04/10-biggest-health-care-lies-in-america.html)
If you're going to discuss things then you should probably know where you stand.

And here's the answer: According to your blog patients who don't get preventative care are better off than those that do.

I didn't know you were such a fan of my blog. Thank you. You should subscribe.

But back to the point.

Question:

When you ration peoples preventative care.......what happens to the people?

Your answer please ......3 seconds.....

[The Leader]

More people get care than if you would have just given all resources to the first people who show up.

[kahljorn]

What will happen to those patients who don't get preventative care?isn't this sort of irrelevant to the entire discussion of if universal health care will ruin the world?

Maybe you shoudl start another thread about preventative health care, because it has nothing to do with universal health care, really.

When you ration care what does that do to the person who you are rationing? And what group or population of people will be affected by this rationing panel?Also irrelevant. Your entire argument is irrelevant. Basically, your qualm isn't even with universal health care but with health care in general, and even further the world ;/
You can apply this to the government too. STUFF ABoUt RATioniNg CARE GOVERNMENt. IT WILL AFFECT POPULACeS. SO LIKE MAYBE WE SHOULD DO AWAY WITH GOVERNMENTS ALL togetHER? your argument doesn't even boil down to doing away with it, your argument has no conclusion or proposed solution, really.

your arguments and concerns are hopelessly tragic, because for the most part your problem isn't with any specific system compared to another system, but the fact that they aren't perfect. Even if preventative medicine was used, there would still be some people who are getting hurt. Just like theleader is saying now, MRIs can actually hurt people. thus, your argument is even against preventative medicine and pretty much anything that doesn't have a perfect result.

Furthermore you have no concept of a "State of nature" which we are struggling against. I guess you are an optimist because ultimately you are presenting an anarchist/stuff argument which states that WITHOUT ANY SYSTEMS RATIONINg cARE HUMANITY WOULD BE PERFECT.

either that or you are just some douchebag who wants to GET US THINKING ABOUT THE ISSUES :rolleyes

[TheCoolinator]

More people get care than if you would have just given all resources to the first people who show up.

Say again? :confused:

I think you're wires are getting crossed.

[The Leader]

No, you're just getting confused by reality.

[kahljorn]

he's saying if you don't ration out care than not everybody gets treated, because they end up treating people who didn't need it instead.

[TheCoolinator]

No, you're just getting confused by reality.

Question:

Does Peter Orzsag head the committee that will ration the care of the American people?

Answer please.

[The Leader]

Yes.

[Colonel Flagg]

Fart.

Na,

Not even going there. The article doesn't even bring up Peter Orzsag or the Rationing committee.

Oh very good. Quite a mature and convincing argument.

You should join the debate team.

[TheCoolinator]

Oh very good. Quite a mature and convincing argument.

You should join the debate team.

I am the debate team. :rock

Yes.

Thank you. You can lock the thread now.

[The Leader]

Thank you. You can lock the thread now.
So you admit that you're wrong?

[The Leader]

Oh wait, no, you were just acting like a child pretending that they were right because they are too ashamed to admit that they were wrong.

[TheCoolinator]

Original Question:

Do Death Panels Exist in the new Obama Health care bill??

Question:

Does Peter Orzsag head the committee that will ration the care of the American people?

Answer please.


Yes.

Fin.

[The Leader]

Rationing of care does not equal a death panel. You are too stupid or arrogant to understand/admit this.

Fin.

[TheCoolinator]

Didn't you just admit a little while ago that private insurance companies who deny care through their panels cause deaths?

Why wouldn't this new death panel cause deaths?

[The Leader]

Wouldn't the previous system have a death panel then?

[Colonel Flagg]

Rationing care has been around for YEARS! We've just called it something else. Now it's become the poster child of the Sarah Palin Drumline under the new name "death panel". Which, taken literally is a gross misrepresentation of what managed care is all about.

I'm not a fan of HMO-style managed care, but properly handled it can (in theory) help reign in the high cost of health care while ensuring the highest quality care for the greatest number.

[kahljorn]

Insurance committees don't kill people; nature does :rolleyes

[Zhukov]

No results found for "Peter Orzsag death commission".

Anyway.


Coolinator you are really something. If you remember correctly the original question of this thread was whether or not Obama was committing genocide through the use of fluoride in your drinking water.

Question:

Does Peter Orzsag head the committee that will ration the care of the American people?

Answer please.

Yes.


Oh. Well, I guess he is. :\


Never mind.

[DougClayton4231]

So...why haven't we copied Canada's system yet? Our system is slow, expensive, and ineffective. Theirs is just slow. Food for thought.

[Tadao]

Many Canadians do not believe that. It's just better than ours currently, but it isn't the fucking godlike health care system people keep saying it is. Putting it way up there on a pedistal is the worst thing you can do for the people who need this free care.

[DougClayton4231]

All of my Canadian friends can get healthcare if they need it. I can't say the same for us. Nothing is flawless, but they have taken a step in the right direction.

[Tadao]

So you are saying we are not taking a step in the right direction?

[Colonel Flagg]

This tidbit is on a sideways topic, but it's barely relevant ....

I just heard about a Gulf War veteran locally who recently suffered a stroke. Not to put too fine a point on his situation, but he needs a lot of therapy - physical, fine and gross motor and speech - to go back to living a semblance of a normal life. Apparently his prognosis is good - if he can get the therapy he needs. Trouble is, the VA won't cover him, as the stroke was not a result of his tour of duty in Iraq. Local groups are holding fundraising efforts for his family to help them offset the cost of the therapies involved, which probably total upwards of 3-5 kilobucks per month (a guesstimate).

Does he need some health coverage? :(

[Zhukov]

I've been in hospital quite a lot of times and I always feel very, very grateful that myself or my family have never had to pay for the professional, extensive and pretty damn good care I have been given. :brag

[TheCoolinator]

Wouldn't the previous system have a death panel then?

Yes, they would.

Obama's healthcare bill though makes a new health panel (Run by Peter Orzsag, 11 Government officials) that will institute federally mandated rationing that cannot be challenged.

And as you said previously, Insurance companies denial of care has led to many deaths throughout the years, this new panel which is meant to ration (I.E. Deny care) will lead to many more deaths.

Rationing care has been around for YEARS! We've just called it something else. Now it's become the poster child of the Sarah Palin Drumline under the new name "death panel". Which, taken literally is a gross misrepresentation of what managed care is all about.

I'm not a fan of HMO-style managed care, but properly handled it can (in theory) help reign in the high cost of health care while ensuring the highest quality care for the greatest number.

This isn't about Sarah Palin. No one cares about Sarah Palin or what she says.

The question:

Does Obama's healthcare plan have a rationing panel?

Yes.

Fin.

[Zhukov]

Oh? It's a 'rationing panel' now?

[Fathom Zero]

All these panels... what is this, like a house or sumthin'?

:a-boooooooooooo :x

[Zhukov]

:lol

[TheCoolinator]

Oh? It's a 'rationing panel' now?

rationing, austerity, denial, pick your word....it all means the same thing.

[Colonel Flagg]

But has it been there before now?

Answer: Yes.

So what's changed?

Answer: Nothing.

[TheCoolinator]

But has it been there before now?

Yes,

but this is a new kind of panel designed for extreme austerity measures. We have to remember that these 11 government officials that sit on this new board probably get "donations" or promises of high paying jobs in the insurance industry if they do whatever they are told.

And even if that's not true, from what they have been doing and discussing doesn't give me a sense that the US population will be treated fairly at all.

Bailouts for the rich, corporations don't have to pay taxes, and you....you have to be rationed.

[Zhukov]

Rationing doesn't equal death. In fact, I'd say that rationing is a response to the prospect of death; a way to combat it. Food rationing prevents famine etc. The fact that there is rationing of health is a sad fact of capitalism rather than a malicious refusal of care with the sole intention of genocide against the American people.

Also, rationing, austerity, denial and death all mean different things. Strange that, isn't it?

[Dimnos]

:rolleyes

[TheCoolinator]

Rationing doesn't equal death. In fact, I'd say that rationing is a response to the prospect of death; a way to combat it. Food rationing prevents famine etc. The fact that there is rationing of health is a sad fact of capitalism rather than a malicious refusal of care with the sole intention of genocide against the American people.


You're a communist and you're defending the for profit insurance companies? Shouldn't you be on the side of the people and demand NO rationing which if unchallenged may lead to needless deaths as TheLeader has stated previously.

[Zhukov]

You're a communist and your defending How could you make this mistake...?


As for your question, I don't know where you got the idea that I was defending insurance companies or arguing for the rationing of health care. Go on, quote me.

The fact that there is rationing of health is a sad fact of capitalism rather than a malicious refusal of care with the sole intention of genocide against the American people.

It's just that what you believe; "malicious refusal of care...genocide..." is stupid.


That's what I have issues with: you being stupid.

[Dimnos]

I dont think he said anything about for profit insurance companies. Just the rationing of health care. Which will happen no matter what. All the money in the world going to hospitals staffed with doctors who are all independently wealth and working for free out of the kindness of their hearts will still have their time and resources rationed. Fact of the matter is there is only so much money, doctors and medicine to go around and rationing will exist. If you want to buy into the political hoopla and do the very thing you yourself had been warning people not to do by demonize the newest version of the same old thing thus making yourself a gullible hypocrite... then fine do what ever the fuck makes you happy. But please PLEASE shut the fuck up about it already.

[Colonel Flagg]

Yes,

but this is a new kind of panel designed for extreme austerity measures. We have to remember that these 11 government officials that sit on this new board probably get "donations" or promises of high paying jobs in the insurance industry if they do whatever they are told.

And even if that's not true, from what they have been doing and discussing doesn't give me a sense that the US population will be treated fairly at all.

This is proof?

[TheCoolinator]

As for your question, I don't know where you got the idea that I was defending insurance companies or arguing for the rationing of health care. Go on, quote me.

I dont think he said anything about for profit insurance companies. Just the rationing of health care. Which will happen no matter what. .

If you guys don't get it by now this 11 person panel headed by Peter Orzsag, created through the Obama Healthcare bill will work to deny claims, ration care, to save the for-profit insurance companies money.

That's the whole entire point of the bill.....a bailout for the insurance companies.

[Dimnos]

I have the solution for you Coolie. Go suck Peter Orzsags dick. He is sure to give you the coverage you need then.

Orzsag... Win. Coolie... Win. People of IMockery... Win.

[TheCoolinator]

........

I'm going to make new thread in the video game forum. :sleep

blah.

[Zhukov]

If you guys don't get it by now this 11 person panel headed by Peter Orzsag, created through the Obama Healthcare bill will work to deny claims, ration care, to save the for-profit insurance companies money.

That's the whole entire point of the bill.....a bailout for the insurance companies.

I don't care if it's a 5 billion person panel headed by The Wurzels and created to steal our eternal souls, how did I say that I was in defense of insurance companies or of the rationing of care? I didn't. If you are obviously wrong in an argument, you have the brilliant ability of simply shutting down and starting a new one up right over the top of the old one without a flinch.

The fact that there is rationing of health is a sad fact of capitalism rather than a malicious refusal of care with the sole intention of genocide against the American people.

Leads to

you're defending the for profit insurance companies?

?????

Rationing care is not genocide like you claim. It's a ridiculous thing to say and one that you should be embarrassed about, more so that you keep saying it. If you believe that saying it is not genocide, or that the panels created to ration health care are not set up to kill people, make one a 'defender of insurance companies', well you are about the same size idiot I thought you were.

[Dimnos]

Dont give him a reason to come back. :(

[Tadao]

Coolie, if I hear anymore talking points from you, I will start the ban process.

[Colonel Flagg]

I have the solution for you Coolie. Go s**k Peter Orzsags d**k. He is sure to give you the coverage you need then.

Dim, my apologies for the edit. :(

I never understand why he places so much emphasis on any single individual or point. With global warming he accuses everyone of supporting cap-and-trade even though he's the ONLY ONE who ever brought it up. (look it up) Then, in the depression thread, when I point out that the article that HE POSTED identifies the tent cities as being made up of homeless people (who incidentally have been homeless for many years, predating the current financial crisis), he up and calls me a "denier". Without, I might add, addressing the point.

And now with this healthcare debate, he's fixated on Peter Orszag; even though he heads this "panel", he's only one man! I mean give me a break - even OPRAH is only one man.

[Tadao]

CAREFUL HOW YOU EXPLAIN YOURSELF COLLIE.

[TheCoolinator]

Coolie, if I hear anymore talking points from you, I will start the ban process.

CAREFUL HOW YOU EXPLAIN YOURSELF COLLIE.

You're a sad little man. :lol.....who likes Rabbits.

[The Leader]

If you guys don't get it by now this 11 person panel headed by Peter Orzsag, created through the Obama Healthcare bill will work to deny claims, ration care, to save the for-profit insurance companies money.

That's the whole entire point of the bill.....a bailout for the insurance companies.
Everyone knows that you silly sog. That's not what we have been debating with you. We have been debating your use of the terms "genocide" and "death panel" as the first has been used wrongly by you as you yourself demonstrated (but don't realize) and the second is misleading. Terminology and the extremely paranoid world view that you seem to be promoting is what is being questioned, not that this bill does almost nothing but give insurance companies money.

BUT YOU WON'T UNDERSTAND THIS POST ANYWAY SO LETS MAKE FUN OF YOU MORE :x

[TheCoolinator]

Everyone knows that you silly sog. That's not what we have been debating with you. We have been debating your use of the terms "genocide" and "death panel" .


So it's both now?

Ok,

There is a death panel of 11 government officials who will ration the US populations care. Which will lead to more needless deaths similar to the private death boards run by major insurance companies.

This will be mandated by law though to give the insurance company the legal authorization to deny care.

They are denying care to a specific population. In this case the US population. Which would support my point of using the term "Genocide".

Don't know how many times I have to repeat it. (here comes another warning from Tadao! :) )

[The Leader]

We already know how you are interpreting things, we don't agree with it because you don't know what actually constitutes genocide even though you yourself posted a definition which contradicts your use of the word.

[Tadao]

You're a sad little man. :lol.....who likes Rabbits.

I gave you a month off, we'll see if any mod here cares to shorten it.

[RaNkeri]

don't go forgettin' them black helicopters

[Dimnos]

And now with this healthcare debate, he's fixated on Peter Orszag; even though he heads this "panel", he's only one man! I mean give me a break - even OPRAH is only one man.

One man that isnt even going to bother with looking at any claims himself. One man who at most is going to set up some arbitrary guidelines for thousands of government workers (who dont give a shit about what happens to the money) to follow.

[Pentegarn]

My objection is that the government is involved. If you must make it state sponsored health care, sub it out to a private company, give them a caretakers fee, and then let it go from there. Less taxpayer dollars wasted even with the caretaker fee I wager, especially when you consider how wasteful government run anything is

[Tadao]

I don't like the idea of private companies. They will always abuse it and we can't ever hold them responsible for their actions.

[Pentegarn]

I disagree with the latter statement, they could certainly be fired by the government if they abused their admin powers.

That said, it is a wholly different debate as to weather the government will fire said corrupt company in that situation.

The issue with anything that is socialized is that humans are ambitious. Ambition + power usually = corruption. The reason nothing socialized/communist works is the corruption of those in power will break it.

[Tadao]

Fired, yeah. But we'll never get the money back that the stole and they will never do jail time. They expect to get caught and fired, that's why the steal so much, so fast, and then leave us in an even worse situation than what we started with.

[Pentegarn]

If they did all that, I expect they would have to be prosecuted, that is committing fraud which is illegal and can lead to heavy fines and prison time

[Tadao]

I used to expect it. :(

[TheCoolinator]

Why am I unbanned?

[Tadao]

Chojin over ruled me and decided you should only have 1 infraction.

[mew barios]

a messageboard rationing panel has allocated your monthly posting privileges.

[Tadao]

It would appear that there is no death panel.

[TheCoolinator]

a messageboard rationing panel has allocated your monthly posting privileges.

See, I told you it was real.

OUR WORK HERE IS DONE. Let's go home.


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:imock

[Zhukov]

Rationing doesn't equal death. In fact, I'd say that rationing is a response to the prospect of death; a way to combat it. Food rationing prevents famine etc. The fact that there is rationing of health is a sad fact of capitalism rather than a malicious refusal of care with the sole intention of genocide against the American people.



How do you get that I am a defender of insurance companies, and FOR the rationing of health care from this quote?

[kahljorn]

I like how no doctor has ever cured a disease, but insurance companies are personally responsible for people's deaths.

[TheCoolinator]

Regarding the Oligarchy.


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12/27/08

[Zhukov]

I noticed you completely ignored everything I, and most likely anyone with a sensible point of view, have said.

[The Leader]

Everyone knows that you silly sog. That's not what we have been debating with you. We have been debating your use of the terms "genocide" and "death panel" as the first has been used wrongly by you as you yourself demonstrated (but don't realize) and the second is misleading. Terminology and the extremely paranoid world view that you seem to be promoting is what is being questioned, not that this bill does almost nothing but give insurance companies money.

BUT YOU WON'T UNDERSTAND THIS POST ANYWAY SO LETS MAKE FUN OF YOU MORE :x
:)

[Zhukov]

The Leader why do you think that the insurance companies are in the business of making money, not for providing health care? I can't believe you didn't know this.

Also, isn't just a little bit too convenient that the president of the "United States" has had direct dealings with not only Peter Olzslagzd, but the CIA as well?

Just something to think about.

[TheCoolinator]

I noticed you completely ignored everything I, and most likely anyone with a sensible point of view, have said.

The Youtube video I posted really details the ideology of the ruling class and how we...the people...are seen as an inferior species that in their minds must be culled (Death Panels / Rationing Panels).

I believe it makes a good point.

[Chojin]

I didn't even get a 'thank you' from him.

[TheCoolinator]

I didn't even get a 'thank you' from him.

I'm sorry,

Thanks buddy. I've never been let back in once I've been banned. I appreciate it. And I appreciate the general debate as well.

[Zhukov]

The Youtube video I posted really details the ideology of the ruling class and how we...the people...are seen as an inferior species that in their minds must be culled (Death Panels / Rationing Panels).

I believe it makes a good point.

I see, I see... hmm, well that certainly answers all the questions you have been asked. Definitely doesn't leave anything unanswered, or outright dodged.

[RaNkeri]

What fucking death panels are you talking about? I admit I haven't followed US politics, but I'm having hard time believing that a panel would be administrated to decide who deserves to live and who must die.

[TheCoolinator]

Just go back a few pages where I linked to the wallstreet journal article. Not only will we have private rationing boards which will lead to needless deaths but now we will have government rationing boards which will mandate which treatment you can and can't have. If you want I can PM you the article.

[RaNkeri]

If you don't mind, then please do

[Zhukov]

Webster Tarpley on the "oligarchy". Ok. First five minutes is nothing, so thanks for that I'm on a slow internet at the moment; just warming up the audience by saying meaningless buzz words and phrases like "fascistoid militias" and "international depression breakdown crisis perspective" (I kid you not).

His 'resounding theme' for the year is "the crisis of the Anglo-American ruling class". In the US, and around the world. He includes Burma, Pakistan and others. Now, what is this crisis? Is it the crisis of there simply being a ruling class? That isn't a crisis in itself, otherwise we might as well consider almost the entirety of recorded history to be one long crisis, in which case it ceases to be a crisis and becomes the norm.

Ok, so now I'm told that the crisis is that they "make the wrong decisions for the economy". Implying that if they made the right decisions (who knows what they are) then everything would be ok and the oligarchy would be hunky dory. The "wrong decisions" include betting the farm on 1.6 quadrillion in derivatives. The Burmese oligarchs are part of this, btw. They are relying on green energy like windmills and solar cells to get them out of the worst world economic depression that we have ever seen. The reason behind relying on green energy is because they are too decadent and degenerate to think otherwise. Right.

++++DELETED A THOUSAND WORDS ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE HOAX++++

This guy displays very Coolinator ideas on information, and he goes of on a tangent about how old windmills and solar cells are.

Now we find out what his "Oligarchy" are, they are the ruling class ("sounds Marxist? Well guess again!") yes, you heard it right, the oligarchs are the ruling elite. You could never have guessed this. He bases his views on Plato's comment that the rich ruling the poor, which I need not explain is as simplistic as it sounds. Rich rule poor. No question on how they become rich, through, say, their class standing and economic opportunities of said class standing, which might be more relevant to whether they are in power, since several different... ugh, never mind. Rich rule poor. So, the ruling class are "oligarchs", which is technically correct if we take Plato's starting point, but far too simplistic to actually mean anything; it's just a word used to conjure up fear or interest. The sort of buzz word that Coolinator supposedly hates. YOU SHEEP.

How else do we know that the world is ruled by an oligarchy? Well, Plato states that an oligarchy is filled with evils, and guess what? SO IS THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION. Wa bam!

Next. The world is, by definition (???), overpopulated. The definition of the world.... means that it is overpopulated. I'll just move on. The oligarchs only care about themselves, so they want to what sounds like 'cull' the poor population with wars, Death Panels, insurance companies, fluoride, genocide, and chemicals in foods. The Trojan war was based around the fact that the world was overpopulated, and the oligarchs wanted to keep the poor under control. As an ex ancient history student and enthusiast, this idea makes me cry. Hell, the idea that any wars are simply designed to cull your own population is a bit rich.

He mentions the Spartan Oligarchs, during what I am guessing is the Peloponnesian wars, lamenting the fact that Athens had a powerful navy with which to harm their rights (Athens being non-oligarchical, apparently... uh, despite us being told that the oligarchs are in power all over the world and have been for ever...). Thucydides prefers to think that it was mainly to do with trade issues and shit, but whatever. Why is he delving into ancient history like a ham fisted barbarian burning down the Acropolis? Well, it's not important, but it sounds quite technical, and if we talk about the past it sort of gives weight to the idea that the "oligarchy" has been around throughout history, rather than just being a buzz word.

Now, there was an idea growing in the 19th century that the world could support a certain amount of people comfortably. Darwin is mentioned as being on board with this. Rather than logically seeing this from an environmental and social perspective on how humanity can live safely, healthily and happily on a world with limited resources, it's OBVIOUS that this is just another example of the "oligarchs" wanting to cull the population, or keep the population low through god knows what methods. This, we are told, is fascism. "Hitler and so forth are based, to a significant degree, on the reading of Darwin by Nietzsche". Not social Darwinism, or something relevant to fascism, but the fact that Darwin believed that the world could support 3 billion people. People know that Nietzsche is related to nazis, right? It's like saying that Darwin had a beard, and Nietzsche noticed this, so Hitler had a moustache and this is why they are all oligarchs. Fascist oligarchs.

So then the derivativeness come up, and the failures of the governments of the USA and UK over a thirty year period, and this is the stuff that people cling to. If you can say that the economy of the world is failing, which I myself believe it is, then you link that in to the idea of "oligarchs" simply by association. They must be international fascist oligarchs because the economy is failing, duh! And the economy is failing BECAUSE they are international fascist oligarchs.

I'm not going to expect too much from it, but you did say it explains things. It does not. The idea that there has been some sort of unbroken line of rich people in power internationally since 350BC (or before) is ridiculous. The idea thrown in, almost hesitantly in what seems to be embarrassment, that the "oligarchs" want to keep the population low, is ridiculous, and in that video certainly not backed up. Why would they want the population low? Why would they want a smaller market to peddle their wares? Why would they want a smaller size workforce that inevitably would mean less competition for jobs and higher wages? Why would they want less people in impoverished nations to manufacture their goods? "So that the oligarchs can live comfortably" does not cut it.

This guy does not cut it. The economic horrors could be true or false for all I care, and I don't care to look up the figures, but thinking that mere association with these said horrors makes the idea of "evil" population controlling oligarchs any more authentic is absurd. The final nail in the coffin is that there is no solution offered; it's just whinging about "bad decisions".

You know Coolinator, I honestly think you could learn a lot from reading over a marxist view of the world. Not being snide here (just here though), but if you actually want to have explanations for these things that obviously affect (not effect) you, then maybe try reading up on something which can explain the process of history quite well. The idea of dialectical materialism, class struggles and conflicting class welfare is much more extensive and informative about where society has come and where it is going than Griffin Tarpley is.

If sane people are wondering why I care so much to type so much, well, it's a mixture of reasons. Some enjoyment, a lack of anything better to do, and a genuine feeling that there is possibility to inform.

[Colonel Flagg]

The Youtube video I posted really details the ideology of the ruling class and how we...the people...are seen as an inferior species that in their minds must be culled (Death Panels / Rationing Panels).

Dude, you miss the point. Zhukov asked a question. Without posting a link to a blog, quoting a blog, or insulting his intellect or his viewpoint, ANSWER HIM! >:

I'm sorry,

Thanks buddy. I've never been let back in once I've been banned. I appreciate it. And I appreciate the general debate as well.

So this isn't the first time. Why am I not surprised.

Just go back a few pages where I linked to the wallstreet journal article. Not only will we have private rationing boards which will lead to needless deaths but now we will have government rationing boards which will mandate which treatment you can and can't have. If you want I can PM you the article.

Again with the articles. You still don't understand that we want to discuss the issue, and not being bludgeoned over the head with someone else's (biased) opinion. There are two sides to every story - that's part of the reason I like factcheck.org - at least they make an effort to look at misleading information from both sides of every issue. Check it out - I found every time there is a point "for" the healthcare bill, there is another point "against" the healthcare bill.

The bottom line is that it's not as good as its supporters say it is, and it's not the "evil death panel" that the detractors contend.

Personally I'd like to see some substantive discussion on how it's likely to affect each of you, including you, Mr. Coolinator. After all, you work, and therefore you have some kind of health care coverage.

No blogs allowed.

[RaNkeri]

I'm confused as hell about this topic, so to avoid dwelling deeper into this whole mess that american healthcare seems to be, I'll stay in the death panel discussion.

What I understood, rationing panels will decide how money will be spend. That is, they will "rank" the patients according to their needs, those in greatest need being first in line. Not getting your inquinal hernia operated might be annoying, but it sure won't be lethal.

I can't say how biased/exaggerated (apparently quite exaggerated) the article was.

I couldn't find proof of arthroscopy etc. being banned in washington, but if true, isn't this retarded? Wouldn't this lead into increase in disability pensions and therefore costs? Not to mention increased costs due to escalations of symptoms?


And once again to make it clear, my grasp of politics etc. is very loose and I'm a retard.

[TheCoolinator]

Wouldn't this lead into increase in disability pensions and therefore costs? Not to mention increased costs due to escalations of symptoms?


And once again to make it clear, my grasp of politics etc. is very loose and I'm a retard.

The Death / rationing panel is meant to reduce the cost to the private-for profit insurance companies. This will allow them a federal mandate to deny care thus saving them money. We have to remember that this is an insurance bailout in the disguise as a healthcare bill for the people. It's not meant to reduce the cost of beneficial programs like disability pensions.

[Dimnos]

So if it is meant as a ruse to allow insurance companies to deny claims then wouldnt the public become even more distrustful of insurance companies? Wont they then turn to the government option for its cheaper coverage even if they do deny as many claims as the insurance companies? You might as well pay less for the same shitty coverage right? All of this masterminded by the insurance companies to bring down those smug insurance companies... ?

[TheCoolinator]

So if it is meant as a ruse to allow insurance companies to deny claims then wouldnt the public become even more distrustful of insurance companies?

I don't know how much more distrustful people can get of insurance companies. Not much I believe.


Wont they then turn to the government option for its cheaper coverage even if they do deny as many claims as the insurance companies? You might as well pay less for the same shitty coverage right?

In the bill it says that you will be forced to purchase products of private insurance companies. I'm sure the option for medicare and medicaid are still there but if you do not qualify for this you will have to buy private insurance.



All of this masterminded by the insurance companies to bring down those smug insurance companies... ?

This is a bailout for insurance companies. Forcing people to pay into private insurance company plans is not bring them down. It's actually proping them up. With the assistance of the death / rationing panels they will be able to maximize the number of "customers" while being able to deny even more care than before.

Win / win situation for them.

[kahljorn]

An Oligarchy is just the negative form of an aristocracy, like tyranny is the negative form of monarchy -- according to Plato. Interestingly he considered Democracy to be the negative form of Polity.

:lol how can there even be a world wide oligarchy? The world isn't a state, or maybe it is to Coolinator he's all into that ONE GUBERMENT TAKe ovER ILLUMINATI SHIT prolly.

Also I'm pretty sure Plato considered Sparta a Polity/Democracy, but maybe it was an oligarchy at one point in history.

Plato on OLIGARCHY:
"they allow no one whose property falls below the amount fixed to have any share in the government."

yea that totally happens.

"What are the characteristics of this form of government," you might ask?
"Just think what would happen if pilots were to be chosen according to their property, and a poor man were refused permission to steer, even though he were a better pilot?"

The Death / rationing panel is meant to reduce the cost to the private-for profit insurance companies. This will allow them a federal mandate to deny care thus saving them money. We have to remember that this is an insurance bailout in the disguise as a healthcare bill for the people. It's not meant to reduce the cost of beneficial programs like disability pensions.

Maybe you should start your own insurance company instead of assuming that no organization should ever CUT COSTS OMG. Again: Who gives a shit if these people are denied or not? There's nothing in this world that guarantees people health and good fortune.

[Zhukov]

I'm confused as hell about this topic, so to avoid dwelling deeper into this whole mess that american healthcare seems to be, I'll stay in the death panel discussion.

What I understood, rationing panels will decide how money will be spend. That is, they will "rank" the patients according to their needs, those in greatest need being first in line. Not getting your inquinal hernia operated might be annoying, but it sure won't be lethal.

I can't say how biased/exaggerated (apparently quite exaggerated) the article was.

I couldn't find proof of arthroscopy etc. being banned in washington, but if true, isn't this retarded? Wouldn't this lead into increase in disability pensions and therefore costs? Not to mention increased costs due to escalations of symptoms?


And once again to make it clear, my grasp of politics etc. is very loose and I'm a retard.

One could argue that the private sector has no interest about disability pensions, which is true, but the answer to why they are rationing care is because it's "genocide", an attempt to systematically eliminate the entirety of the American populace, because the "oligarchs" want to cull the poor people.

In reality the answer to why they are rationing health care is probably because the public side of things isn't going to be as well funded, and therefore not have enough "health care" to go around. You know, how health care is in every other country.



On one hand this guy Tarpley tells us that it's Rich ruling poor, and it has been for ever, but he also tells us that the "oligarchs" always try to kill off the poor population. Which is absurd since it's the working class that does, well, the work, and the ruling oligarchs would have no workforce.

Another thing; if the "oligarchs" wanted to cull the population, why would they go through such inefficient means such as rationing health care, rather than, say, a chemical bomb of some sort?


Answer me please Coolie, I watched your stupid video.

[Zhukov]

:lol how can there even be a world wide oligarchy? The world isn't a state, or maybe it is to Coolinator he's all into that ONE GUBERMENT TAKe ovER ILLUMINATI SHIT prolly.


I don't know if he means oligarchs all over the world in control, or one big group of oligarchs in control of the whole world. I suppose it will go either way depending on the situation and arguments presented.

What gets me is the massively simplistic view of it. The denial of social revolutions throughout history having any change on things. It's the rich ruling the poor, oh, and also the rich wanting to kill the poor. If you broke down most ruling classes through history, then yes, it's the people who are in charge are well off, BUT why stop your investigation there? Why not delve deeper into the insanely complicated workings of social relations than Rich rules Poor (and also wants to genocide them)? Because it's easier, that's why. Because you can argue anything if you keep your base facts (PFFFTTT) vague enough.

[kahljorn]

one time i heard this one conspiracy that somewhere in utah is a rock which says that the world should only have half a million people in it and this is proof the illuminati is gonna kill everyone

maybe its something like that

[Zhukov]

Like... like a speaking rock? :|


Anyway, if they were in charge of the world's armies, tanks, planes, chemical and biological weapons and nuclear stockpiles, and they wanted to kill everyone but themselves, why wouldn't they just do it, man?

[kahljorn]

its not everyone but themselves its everyone except like 480,000 slaves and 20,000 oligarchs or some shit. also its just carvings on a rock or something :(

i guess they are waiting for the chosen time when our alien/lizard overlords come back to claim us as a slave race.

[Colonel Flagg]

one time i heard this one conspiracy that somewhere in utah is a rock which says that the world should only have half a million people in it and this is proof the illuminati is gonna kill everyone

maybe its something like that


You may be talking about these rocks (http://www.thegeorgiaguidestones.com), located in Georgia, called the "Georgia Guidestones"; they're somewhat misleadingly referred to as the "American Stonehenge" as they were erected recently.

http://extraordinaryintelligence.com/files/2009/05/georgia_guidestones.jpg

I think it's more like a "How to rebuild society after the apocalypse" primer. :confused

[Zhukov]

That looks awesome. I haven't seen Stonehenge, but I have seen the oldest standing stones in the British Isles (possibly world???); Calanais, which were just out the back of some guy's house.

[kahljorn]

that might be what it is Colonel Flag but illuminati conspiracy people treat it as their intention to dwindle the world's population down to 500,000 people. I've heard A LOT of people say this too.

and that is what they are i think.

[kahljorn]

http://www.rense.com/general16/georgiaguidestones.htm

:lol there's some hella coolinator stuff on here:
The Guidestones' emphasis on preserving nature anticipates the environmental movement of the 1990s

:O :O :O :O

[Colonel Flagg]

I'm hoping he actually goes and reads some of that stuff. :)

EDIT: Especially the part about RC Christian being Ted Turner. Ooooooh Spooky. :eek

[TheCoolinator]

Ya, Ya,

I know about the guide stones. They were made by some weirdos. I think they are near a highway or something too. I'm really not impressed by a bunch of rocks by a roadway.

[Colonel Flagg]

Wow. Just when you think you have someone pegged .... :shocked

[Zhukov]

Another thing; if the "oligarchs" wanted to cull the population, why would they go through such inefficient means such as rationing health care, rather than, say, a chemical bomb of some sort?

..

[TheCoolinator]

..

They'll probably do that too and just blame it on a nameless "terrorists". The health rationing is much easier because people have been trained to just blame a persons lifestyle on their disease and move on. They won't question why they were denied care. They'll just say something similar to......

"Oh, he got brain tumors cause he talked on the phone too much"

"Oh, he got cancer cause he smoked"

"Oh, she got pancreatic cancer because she drank too much soda"

They rationalize the death, are happy its not them, and move on. Kind of like when an animal gets killed. The whole flock runs away and leaves the one animal to get eaten. They don't think about it after. They just go about there business. It didn't happen to me, why should I care?

[Zhukov]

Rationing health care is not easier than rounding people up and gassing them. The Nazis killed millions and millions of people in a few short years, and only stopped because they lost a war. Why not gas people instead of ration their health care and wait for them to die from disease or injury?

Furthermore, the death rates attributed to 'lack of health care'; where someone could have been saved had they gotten proper treatment, are so far behind the birth rate that it should not be even slightly taken in to consideration. In the US or any other country. The amount of people dying from preventative illness doesn't slow down the amount of people being born into this world every year. It's hardly effectively culling the population if more people are born than die.

[kahljorn]

as far as age demographics go we are fucked anyway, from what i understand :O Soon there will be more old people and children then there will be working age adult + a large portion of the elderly population (baby boomers) will start to die. also its almost to the point that the amount of people born don't replace the amount of people that die.

The health rationing is much easier because people have been trained to just blame a persons lifestyle on their disease and move on. They won't question why they were denied care. They'll just say something similar to......uh, nobody deserves or has a right to care, so they weren't really denied it in that sense. Also, they aren't being denied care; the insurance company just won't cover the payment for the care that they could otherwise receive if it were necessary.
also haven't you been saying how important "preventative medicine" is i.e. eating healthy / having a good lifestyle? Maybe people should like, i dunno, be healthier? Stop eating crap? Where does personal accountability come into this?

Do you want to have to pay for people's fat reduction surgeries/liver transplants because they are alcoholics/abortions? Do you think these people should take financial precedence for their care over people who have, for example, gun shot wounds, cancer from asbestos or other diseases which were not self-inflicted? Because ultimately that is what you are saying unless you believe there is infinite money.

I guess that is THE MOSt impoRtANT QUEStiON FOR COOLIE TO ANSWer: COOLIE DO YOU THINk tHAT THERE IS INFINITE MONEY AVAILABLE To FIX EVErONE

Also you have to keep in mind that this bill is being made in AMERICA so it has to satisfy many different interests. Not just yours and a few other people. In other words, while it has to cater to idiots like you who think everything should be covered because they are stupid and don't use their brain and think money miraculously appears (Interesting that a guy who complains about the amount of money being spent also says we should have MORE COVERAGE: MORE COVERAGE=MORE MONEY=YOUBITCHING MORE. Just can't win with you) it also has to cater to persons who believe that they shouldn't have to pay for their drug addict sisters abortion, rehab, methadone treatments and std medicines.

You don't even have a clear political stance, it's like you don't even recognize that there are problems in the WORLD which society is trying to respond to :(

[TheCoolinator]

Rationing health care is not easier than rounding people up and gassing them. The Nazis killed millions and millions of people in a few short years, and only stopped because they lost a war. Why not gas people instead of ration their health care and wait for them to die from disease or injury?

Let me first start out by saying this is all hypothetical. I don't know if they are really trying to kill us. It certainly looks that way but who knows.

We all know now there are Death panels in the new obama healthcare bill. This has been proven time and time again and it will be focused directly at the US population.

But since we are on this speculative train let me just say that the combination of tainted food, rationing of care, toxic medicine, and environmental pollution will probably out do Stalin and Hitler in the murder department.

That's just my opinion though. You have to remember that the USA is the most sickest nation in the world. Also, the US government / Corporations can go around machine gunning people. That might actually wake people up to what is going on. They need to do it incrementally. Very slowly so no one notices.

[Colonel Flagg]

We all know now there are Death panels in the new obama healthcare bill.

Uh, no. No we don't. Has anyone agreed with you yet on this point?

You have to remember that the USA is the most sickest nation in the world.

I'm guessing some countries in Eastern Europe, Africa, South and Central America, or Southeast Asia could have something to say about that. Mexico too.

Reread your posts so they make sense, killer. ;)

[Zhukov]

Do you want to have to pay for people's fat reduction surgeries/liver transplants because they are alcoholics/abortions?


I certainly don't want my tax dollars going towards abortions getting a new liver. FUCK THAT.

Let me first start out by saying this is all hypothetical. I don't know if they are really trying to kill us. It certainly looks that way but who knows.
Wha? WHY DID YOU LINK THAT VIDEO THEN? WTF. You piss and rant about people not watching your videos, and then when someone DOES, you try to distance yourself from it. What was the point of the video? The guy TELLS us that the oligarchs are in charge, and have always been, and that they are aiming for a population culled of all poor people. That was what the video was about... why make us watch it if you get embarrassed when someone ACTUALLY watches it and points out how absurd it is? If the idea is one that you don't actually believe in, why whinge and cry to get us to watch it?

Are you not so sure that a "death panel" is genocide anymore?

The truth is you never actually expected anyone to watch it, you just wanted to post it to tell yourself that you proved everything you ever said. Hell, I bet you just randomly picked that video.


We all know now there are Death panels in the new obama healthcare bill. This has been proven time and time again and it will be focused directly at the US population.
That's an interesting thought. It's focused directly at the US population, ok. So the holding back of funds for health care is focused directly at the US population... does that mean that non-US citizens will get health care? I mean, if they are focusing all their non-health care on US citizens, I guess that means that everyone else can come get a slice of the pie. Actually I'm just taking the piss out of you here. I mean, who else will anything to do with US public health care be focused on if not the US population?



But since we are on this speculative train let me just say that the combination of tainted food, rationing of care, toxic medicine, and environmental pollution will probably out do Stalin and Hitler in the murder department. According to your link Stalin and Hitler were oligarchs as well, and part of the same system. Also, what sort of time frames are we looking at? Are we talking Obama's administration? Do you believe that rationing of care, "tainted food", "toxic medicine" and pollution will kill more people during Obama's term in office than Stalin or Hitler?


That's just my opinion though. You have to remember that the USA is the most sickest nation in the world. Also, the US government / Corporations can go around machine gunning people. That might actually wake people up to what is going on. They need to do it incrementally. Very slowly so no one notices.How slowly is slowly? Your video says that the oligarchs have been in control at least since 340BC, how long does it take? I think they are actually doing a poor job; the population of the world is getting bigger, despite all the "tainted food". Another thing, why does it matter if people notice? The Jews noticed, and they still went to that gas chambers.

[TheCoolinator]

Still don't understand why everyone is so hostile. Its all out in the open. You guys make it sound like some kind of shadowy conspiracy.

[RaNkeri]

If it's all out in the open, then why don't you move away or overthrow the government if it is trying to kill you?
Why has there been no news of death panels butchering people?

[Zhukov]

Why did you link to a video pouting 'Aha, I think this video will answer all your questions!' and then later say 'Oh, erm, it's all speculation at the moment... it's hypothetical'?

Why?

[TheCoolinator]

Why did you link to a video pouting 'Aha, I think this video will answer all your questions!' and then later say 'Oh, erm, it's all speculation at the moment... it's hypothetical'?

Why?

The video explained the ruling class ideology and why death panels are not shunned. In a normal society death panels would be out of the question but since there is an oligarchy at the top those death panels are condoned.

[Zhukov]

The video explained the ruling class ideology and why death panels are not shunned. In a normal society death panels would be out of the question but since there is an oligarchy at the top those death panels are condoned.

Normal society? The guy says that the oligarchs are always in charge. How is anything else normal?

Ugh. I think you've missed the hype of your own insane beliefs. The "death panels" are going on because of the "ruling class ideology", but the ruling class ideology is that the rich should cull the poor, hence "death panels" to do it. Why am I explaining your own conspiracy theories to you?

[TheCoolinator]

Normal society? The guy says that the oligarchs are always in charge. How is anything else normal?

Ugh. I think you've missed the hype of your own insane beliefs. The "death panels" are going on because of the "ruling class ideology", but the ruling class ideology is that the rich should cull the poor, hence "death panels" to do it. Why am I explaining your own conspiracy theories to you?

No,

The heart of the matter is that the insurance companies gambled on derivatives on wallstreet, lost, and now have to be bailed out. The healthcare bill seeks to pay off their debt by forcing people to buy their "products". Another sneaky way they are attempting to save them cash while also destroying beneficial social safety nets would be to create the Rationing Board / Death panels. By doing so they can effectively deny care with a federal mandate and cut government benefits for the needy.

The video was just referencing some historical facts about oligarchs and how they always seek to brand normal people as an inferior species oppressing the breast of mother earth.

[Zhukov]

Like you just stated:

The video explained the ruling class ideology

Oligarchs culling the poor through wars and death panels.

This seems like it's the key concept for this guy that you follow. Do you not fully believe his truth?

[TheCoolinator]

Like you just stated:



Oligarchs culling the poor through wars and death panels.

This seems like it's the key concept for this guy that you follow. Do you not fully believe his truth?

It doesn't matter what I believe or not. I know that the Obama health care bill has death panels. I can't disprove it. It doesn't matter if the Oligarchical masters of the universe are culling the poor through certain activities what matters is that there is a death panel and they will deny the US population care for the greater good of the private insurance companies.

[Zhukov]

You keep going back to how you can prove death panels exist, but you don't seem to realise that I'm not debating death panels with you, and have already stated that I don't really care about the subject past making jokes at you about it.

I'm talking about the video you posted about "oligarchs" and how it makes some pretty outlandish claims, and whether or not you believe them.

[TheCoolinator]

.

I'm talking about the video you posted about "oligarchs" and how it makes some pretty outlandish claims, and whether or not you believe them.


All the video was doing was quoting historical texts regarding the Oligarchy through the ages. Its up to you to interpret them in whatever way you feel comfortable.

I have no comment on the subject.

[Dimnos]

Rationing health care is not easier than rounding people up and gassing them. The Nazis killed millions and millions of people in a few short years, and only stopped because they lost a war. Why not gas people instead of ration their health care and wait for them to die from disease or injury.


Or hell they could start some dummy corporation that then "accidentally" has a chemical spill of something much more toxic than fluoride. Kill off thousands of people before anyone finds out. Then just blame the dummy company that then closes. That way the government doesnt even have to worry about taking the heat for it. Or they could sabotage a few nuclear power stations and basically have an American Chernobyl. Or or or... They could just reinstate the draft and send us all off to Iran or some shit and get us killed WHILE we are killing others. :lol

[Zhukov]

I have no comment on the subject.

Why not? You posted the video with "here's the oligarchy! All facts in here!"

Yet you wont admit that you believe it all.

[TheCoolinator]

Why not? You posted the video with "here's the oligarchy! All facts in here!"

No, the post said

Regarding the Oligarchy.

and then I dated when it was originally broadcast.

[Zhukov]

Why post a video about the "oligarchy" if you wont say whether you believe it or not? This is what I am trying to get at here.

[TheCoolinator]

Why post a video about the "oligarchy" if you wont say whether you believe it or not? This is what I am trying to get at here.

Well, if I remember correctly you asked me about oligarchy so in response I posted a video regarding oligarchy.

[Dimnos]

And now he is asking where you stand on the issue. :rolleyes

[TheCoolinator]

And now he is asking where you stand on the issue.

It's irrelevant to the conversation. Many threads turn into a Q/A sessions based solely around me personally. Let's try not to let that happen. If I'm so popular then you guys can just PM me and I'll answer your question like I did when TheLeader PMed me a little while ago.

[Zhukov]

Why not just answer here? IF you posted a video about the "oligarchy" in reply to something, then surely you believe it? Why reply with something that you don't believe in?

Ok, I'm done, you believe that nonsense so there's no point me going on about it.

[Dimnos]

If you dont want to get involved then dont get involved.

[Colonel Flagg]

Geeez. A whole page devoted to ..... nothing.

Jerry Seinfeld would be proud.

[The Leader]

It's irrelevant to the conversation. Many threads turn into a Q/A sessions based solely around me personally. Let's try not to let that happen. If I'm so popular then you guys can just PM me and I'll answer your question like I did when TheLeader PMed me a little while ago.
You never answered my question about whether or not you or someone you knew had Aspergers.

[Chojin]

You never answered my question about whether or not you or someone you knew had Aspergers.

I'm pretty sure it's a given that he's got the asspies.

[The Leader]

I've asked him a couple times and he never responds. When I pm'ed him about it he thought I was mad at him for something and I was trying to insult him.

Coolie, I just want to know. :(

[Dimnos]

Coolie, describe in single words only the good things that come into your mind about... your mother.

Im still waiting for an answer to this one. >:

[Dimnos]

5nRzh4CJTZs

[The Leader]

:lol

[Chojin]

oh shit, that black guy is from one of my favorite comedy teams, derrickcomedy

[kahljorn]

I'm going to start a, "DOEs coolINAToR BELIEve IN INFINITe moneY" thread WITh A POLL

[Colonel Flagg]

Here's a thought - now with the healthcare bill as law, will doctors try to kill more people by prescribing more fluoride?

Sounds like a win-win.