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mburbank
Dec 11th, 2003, 02:17 PM
Florida first in U.S. to dedicate prison to faith-based program

By Jim Ash, Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

TALLAHASSEE -- Hard time will soon be hallowed time for nearly 800 Florida inmates who will be given the option of repaying their debt to society in the nation's first prison dedicated entirely to faith-based rehabilitation programs.

Gov. Jeb Bush made the surprise announcement Friday at a White House-sponsored news conference in Tampa that spotlighted President Bush's attempts to give religious organizations a greater role in solving social problems.

"I believe that when people commit violent acts, it is appropriate to enforce the laws and that people should be punished for their actions," Gov. Bush said. "But I also believe that lives can be changed.

"For those individuals who are motivated to change their lives, programs like this can make a tremendous difference and create a pathway out of the criminal justice system."

Under the governor's plan, the entire Lawtey Correctional Institution in rural Bradford County, with its eight prison dormitories and 791 inmates, will house inmates who have volunteered for the program. To be eligible, they will have to be within three years of completing their sentences and have had a clean prison record for the previous 12 months, said Florida Department of Corrections spokesman Sterling Ivey.

"To our knowledge, there is no other correctional system in the country that is operating a prison exclusively with faith-based programming," Ivey said.

Prisoners who meet the minimum requirements will be offered space at the facility on a first-come, first-served basis. Once accepted, they will receive religion-based classes in everything from parenting and character building to job training, Ivey said.

Volunteers from religious groups also will help inmates find work after their release, Ivey said. The department already is negotiating with volunteer groups from various religions and expects to convert the prison by Dec. 24, he said.

Inmates who are now assigned to the prison but not interested in the programs will be moved, he said.

The plan would be an evolutionary step beyond a current Florida program, in which 10 prisons already have separate dorms for religion-based rehabilitation programs and where there are waiting lines to get in. The dorms were set up in 1999, Ivey said.

The first wave of inmates was released in 2000, making it too recent to conduct recidivism studies, he said. But he said anecdotal evidence suggests the inmates are better behaved in the faith-based programs.

"These inmates are motivated, they want to be there," Ivey said.

But critics were quick to condemn the move. Among them was the Washington-based Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which last month successfully sued to remove a replica of the Ten Commandments from the Alabama State Supreme Court, a legal battle that eventually cost that state's chief justice his job.

Eight months ago, the group filed a federal lawsuit challenging a program in the Iowa prison system that is similar to the existing Florida program. That suit has yet to be heard.

Spending taxpayer dollars on a faith-based prison violates Florida and federal constitutional bans on establishment of a state religion, said the group's executive director, Barry Lynn, who predicted his group would succeed easily if it challenges the Florida program.

Ivey said the state expects the program to survive legal challenges. "We understand the legalities involved here, but we're operating under a voluntary program," he said.

But Lynn said: "The voluntary aspect is almost of no consequence. It is government-supported religion, and it is just as unconstitutional in a prison as it would be in a public housing project.... We are certainly going to be looking at this very carefully and very closely."

Similarly, Howard Simon of the American Civil Liberties Union said: "I think the governor is just creating what will be an inevitable constitutional showdown about whether it is permissible to use state dollars and state facilities to promote religion. They are not appropriate programs to be sponsored by state government."

Emu
Dec 11th, 2003, 04:06 PM
"I believe that when people commit violent acts, it is appropriate to enforce the laws and that people should be punished for their actions," Gov. Bush said. "But I also believe that lives can be changed.


Let me guess. They don't get to choose which Jesus they pray to, do they?

Brandon
Dec 11th, 2003, 04:06 PM
Florida doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's unconstitutional. Case closed.

camacazio
Dec 11th, 2003, 04:10 PM
The Bush family sure is a bunch of geniuses. I'm glad they're all in politics.

The One and Only...
Dec 11th, 2003, 04:17 PM
I don't think this would be considered unconstitutional.

I thought it was the liberals who wine about the focus on punishment rather than rehabilitation anyway.

Perndog
Dec 11th, 2003, 04:22 PM
Priorities. No public support for religion first, rehabilitation of prisoners second.

The One and Only...
Dec 11th, 2003, 04:23 PM
Glad to see your priorities are in place. :rolleyes

Perndog
Dec 11th, 2003, 06:11 PM
I meant those are the liberals' priorities. I'm less and less concerned these days about public religion and I don't give a damn whether convicted criminals are rehabilitated or thrown into a pit.

Ant10708
Dec 11th, 2003, 07:19 PM
Ny spends taxpayers dollars on a public school for gays. Isn't that more unconstitutional then this? An doesn't this have atleats benefits.

El Blanco
Dec 11th, 2003, 07:53 PM
What if its a nondenominational prison? You can choose a form of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Wicca, Scientology, etc etc as long as this makes petty criminals into prductive members of society, why not give it a roll?

Ant10708
Dec 11th, 2003, 08:11 PM
Oh dear god don't make yourself look unintelligent by calling Scientology a religion. Scientology wouldn't want prisoners as followers since all it wants is money and most prisoners don't have a steady income.

But I agree with having a choice of a religion or philsophies on a way of life.

El Blanco
Dec 11th, 2003, 08:32 PM
It was a joke. I also called Wicca a religion. That should have tipped you off.

Perndog
Dec 11th, 2003, 08:33 PM
Calling something a religion doesn't give it credit for anything. Wicca and Scientology are religions. Doesn't stop them from being retarded.

Ant10708
Dec 11th, 2003, 09:02 PM
I know nothing about the Wiccan religion but Scientology is not a religion and this I have studied.

Its a cult. And I know how everyone says all relgion is a cult but this is a real and dangerous one.

Oh Perndog I love your sig and its now in my AIm profile. :)

Perndog
Dec 11th, 2003, 09:10 PM
Not all religions are cults, but all cults are religions. Religion is a pretty broad term, and the basically accepted tradition is: a set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

Now, you could say it's a stupid religion, and most people would agree with you. But that doesn't mean it's not one at all.

Emu
Dec 11th, 2003, 09:22 PM
Ny spends taxpayers dollars on a public school for gays. Isn't that more unconstitutional then this? An doesn't this have atleats benefits.

Well, since gaiety isn't a religion, I guess it wouldn't be. I don't see the point of making everybody into seperatist pricks, but you can't say anything bad about homosexuals or you're a 'phobe nowadays.

mburbank
Dec 12th, 2003, 09:58 AM
"I thought it was the liberals who wine about the focus on punishment rather than rehabilitation anyway."

I'm all for rehabilitation. I'm pretty much against rehab for christians only in a special christians only jail. I'm also pretty much against the government funding of religous programs, state religions, and incremental steps toward theocracy.

Oh, I'm also against narrow minded psuedo intellectual baboons defining what I think and calling it whining. But I suppose you can't help it since that's what I think liberatrainas always do.

Perndog
Dec 12th, 2003, 11:38 AM
You know, I think "would it be rapture proof?" is a good question. What happens when prisoners are struck with the light of Jesus and suddenly rise up to heaven? Are they installing special security measures to prevent this kind of escapee, or do they have a liability clause that covers it? Because it would be awful to have convicted criminals running around up there before they've served their sentences - it might ruin heaven for the rest of us.

Brandon
Dec 12th, 2003, 01:44 PM
You know, I think "would it be rapture proof?" is a good question. What happens when prisoners are struck with the light of Jesus and suddenly rise up to heaven? Are they installing special security measures to prevent this kind of escapee, or do they have a liability clause that covers it? Because it would be awful to have convicted criminals running around up there before they've served their sentences - it might ruin heaven for the rest of us.
Similarly, does "finding Jesus" qualify a prisoner for instant parole?

The One and Only...
Dec 12th, 2003, 04:02 PM
Ah, but burbank, the prisoner has a choice. He doesn't have to be rehabilitated.

And you miss my point. You think that the state "supporting" religion is worse than keeping non-violent law breakers in jail. That says a lot about your character.

kellychaos
Dec 12th, 2003, 04:25 PM
Rehab the pagan bastards ... 'cause christians never commit crimes.

Abcdxxxx
Dec 13th, 2003, 02:19 AM
Ugh, The Rapture? I don't care what Janet Jackson thinks, I'm getting tired of James Murphy and the too much cowbell joke.

camacazio
Dec 13th, 2003, 02:50 AM
Ah, but burbank, the prisoner has a choice. He doesn't have to be rehabilitated.

And you miss my point. You think that the state "supporting" religion is worse than keeping non-violent law breakers in jail. That says a lot about your character.
It doesn't say anything about his character. Well, except maybe upholding US law.

KevinTheOmnivore
Dec 13th, 2003, 07:41 AM
And you miss my point. You think that the state "supporting" religion is worse than keeping non-violent law breakers in jail. That says a lot about your character.

And you as a so-called Libertarian should realize that we lock up far too many non-violent offenders in this country, particularly for petty drug charges....

I'm in support of all kinds of rehabilitation, be it religious or not. But I think Blanco had a good point in his jest. Will it truly be various faiths, or simply Christianity? Which denomination? I'd imagine Catholics might be shit out of luck, too.

Having religion in the public sphere doesn't bother me. Choosing one religion OVER another, IMO, is the MAIN reason why religion is excluded all together. It'd sort of be like when Catholics and other faiths were taxed in the colonies in order to fund Protestant churches. No dice.

mburbank
Dec 13th, 2003, 10:21 AM
"And you miss my point. You think that the state "supporting" religion is worse than keeping non-violent law breakers in jail. That says a lot about your character."

Well... Um, yeah, I guess. But where did I say that? And what exactly is it supposed to say about my character? There's all kinds of nonviolent crime. A guy who gets busted for smoking dope? I don't see the point of incarcerating him. White collar criminals who impact the entire economy, screw up peoples retirements, run the company into the ground and get paid millions to do it? It's not violent but it's malacious, greedy and it ruins lives. I say hard time, long time.

I think creating a special religion speciffic jail is creepy. Sue me.

Perndog
Dec 13th, 2003, 02:35 PM
The court order will be arriving shortly, Max. You're going to regret that dare.

kellychaos
Dec 13th, 2003, 04:07 PM
Well... Um, yeah, I guess. But where did I say that? And what exactly is it supposed to say about my character? There's all kinds of nonviolent crime. A guy who gets busted for smoking dope? I don't see the point of incarcerating him. White collar criminals who impact the entire economy, screw up peoples retirements, run the company into the ground and get paid millions to do it? It's not violent but it's malacious, greedy and it ruins lives. I say hard time, long time.

I think creating a special religion speciffic jail is creepy. Sue me.

What's the difference between white collar criminal who uses a computer and an armed robber who uses a weapon?

About ten years! :RIMSHOT Yuck! Yuck! Yuck! Thank you ... I'll be here all week. It sounds like different means to the same end and the violent offender (unless he actually kills someone) has relatively little impact on society as a whole and usually the payoff (if he gets away with it) is a fraction of that of the white collar criminal. Yet the white collar criminal, more often than not, is probably a seemingly religious man whilst the heathen who robbed the gas station is the one that needs the baby Jesus. Figure that one out! I guess I'd be in need of religious consolation too if my punishment way exceeded the seriousness of my crime and the system is skewed in favor of the already rich or, at least, middle class.

The One and Only...
Dec 13th, 2003, 08:13 PM
All that I'm saying is that you need to learn to compromise. I am more worried about the incarcerated pot smoker being in jail than I am worried about having religion pseudo-forced on him while he is being rehabilitated. I'm willing to compromise my beliefs about church in state so that these people will get out prison and can become normal, productive members of society again (which a lot of druggies are).

As for white collar crime... screw jail. He'll just buy his way into one of those "special" prisons which are really like upscale hotels. Fine the son of bitch to hell and back. Take away a heck of a lot more than he made on the crime. Lowers taxes, and is more effective.

Perndog
Dec 13th, 2003, 09:03 PM
While we're talking ideal punishments for a white collar criminal, I say give him 30 lashes along with those big fines and set him loose immediately (but watch him in case he didn't learn his lesson). Repeal that whole cruel and unusual thing while you're at it... to paraphrase Heinlein, the whole point of punishment is cruelty, and to add my own opinion, if it's unusual the criminal will just remember it better.

In case you want to call me insensitive again (which I am) or stupid (which I don't think I am), yes, Max, I really do think this would be a good idea, because I don't commit crimes so I wouldn't have to worry about being whipped myself.

The One and Only...
Dec 13th, 2003, 09:49 PM
Why wouldn't you whip blue collars?

And why not do it publicly?

The real issue here is not about whether or not truly heinous persons deserve such treatment, but the chances of an innocent receiving them - not to mention legally guilty, but morally innocent persons as well.

Perndog
Dec 13th, 2003, 09:56 PM
Oh, I would whip criminals for everything else too; I just happened to single out the guy in your example. And publicly for certain.

Justice for the innocent is one of many reasons I'm not actually involved in law.

mburbank
Dec 15th, 2003, 09:47 AM
While I'm all in favor of getting non violent drug users out of our jails, your choice

" I'm willing to compromise my beliefs about church in state so that these people will get out prison and can become normal, productive members of society again (which a lot of druggies are). "

isn't what Jeb Bush is offering. He's talking about special treatment for christians and segregating prisoners based on religous beliefs. He isn't offering any kind of trade off, so saying you're willing to sacrafice one thing for another is in no way germaine.

As for both of your ideas about whipping inmates, while you may think you will never be on the wrong side of the law, you don't know it. I see compassion as a virtue, not a way to get what you want, or for that mnatter as a hedge against future ill treatment. My belief that prison should be about rehabilitatiion and not about punishment is in no way linked to what crimes I feel I may be likely to commit.

The One and Only...
Dec 15th, 2003, 10:59 AM
My view is that prisons should be about punishment, but only once we have eliminated over half of the crimes we have.

The way I read it made me think that these prisoners would be given parole earlier if they went to religious councelling, which apparently is not the case.

Protoclown
Dec 15th, 2003, 12:46 PM
I THOUGHT you were supposed to act like you're smart. :rolleyes