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Oct 24th, 2003 08:37 AM
Zhukov
Quote:
Zhukov, there are plenty of reasons Dean wouldn't be in the socialist party. For one, they don't have a snowball in hell's chance of winning.
So, what you are saying is that he will take the presidency, then anounce to everyone "Oh, hey guys, I'm a Socialist." Very sneaky, Howard Dean. VERY sneaky. Tricking the masses like that, it's so... so... SOCIALIST!
Oct 23rd, 2003 08:53 PM
The One and Only... The LP barely even campaigns at the national level. It still pulled in 1%, though.
Oct 23rd, 2003 07:45 PM
Drew Katsikas And lord knows the LP has a great chance.
Oct 23rd, 2003 07:15 PM
The One and Only... Zhukov, there are plenty of reasons Dean wouldn't be in the socialist party. For one, they don't have a snowball in hell's chance of winning.
Oct 23rd, 2003 07:02 PM
Helm he's better when he's not making any sense.
Oct 23rd, 2003 06:53 PM
Perndog I admire kahljorn a little more after every post like this one.
Oct 23rd, 2003 04:07 PM
kahljorn Having played Warcraft 3 for the last few hours, I am confident I would make the best president we have ever had.
Oct 23rd, 2003 02:34 PM
mburbank I just want to say here that I thought Vinth presented his position really well. Republicans are better than Democrats. It's hard to see how I ignored that all this time, becuase it's a really well thought out argument. Plus, if you vote for a democrat, that's more or less voting for terrorism. Put that way, how could you vote democrat? The logic is inescapable.

If you're five.

And have head trauma.

And think that stating things is the same as making an argument.

You're just so stupid, Clarice. You're like some sort of freakishly overgrown toddler with a rage disorder who's parents always told him he was a genious. Homest to god, I can't believe I get to read your stuff without paying a quarter and having a dwarf lift the tent flap.

"OH! You are a JEW, you Jew Jew! Put you in a OVEN you nose so BIG! IT BIG!!"
-Vinth "Why post when you can ban?" Clambake
Oct 23rd, 2003 01:27 PM
Zhukov One and only, the fact that you wer reduced to looking up the word 'Socialism' in a dictionary makes it look like you don't know what you are talking about.

Quote:
Dictionary.com is so wonderful, isn't it?
Not this time. Socialism is the term for the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. There will be no dictating by them before or after.

Socialism is NOT "not really capatilist, not really communist". You are throwing the word around like some people use "fascist" to describe their parents.

When someone openly declares that they struggle for the overthrow of all existing social conditions - then I might consider the label. If Howard Dean is such a socialist, then why isn't he in a Socialist party?
Oct 22nd, 2003 04:17 PM
The One and Only...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore
As were the Clintons, as well as past Democratic candidates. Republicans such as Eisenhower even supported expansive Medicare-like coverage for Americans. And our current president, Mr. Bush, plans to expand the already largest healthcare system in cost to the elderly. Nationalized healthcare is a norm in every other industrialized nation, so calling it a staple of international socialist ambition is just stupid on your part, OAO.
Yet, it's only one part. You aren't looking at the whole picture. No doubt Dean plans on billing this to the wealthy, which is all the more socialistic.

Quote:
Progressive taxation was supported by all sorts, from Adam Smith onward. Even if your assertions of a Dean "New Deal" program were accurate, which they aren't, this would hardly justify calling the man a Socialist, unless viewed through the lense of a fringe free market radical.
You claim you made about Adam Smith seems out of touch. I saw the quote you put up - to me, it simply supported taxation. Taxation in and of itself is progressive since it charges at various rates rather than one. The exception might be sales taxes, but even they can be made progressive.

The sheer extent of what Dean wants to implement appears socialist to me. Like I said, look at the whole picture.

Quote:
And the point is? He's a socialist because he supports public schools? You need to stop readin lp.org OAO, seriously....
He's a socialist because he wants government programs for the biggest non-entertainment industries.

Quote:
Yet all of the unions are supporting Gephardt. :/ He must be a Socialist, too. You guys are hysterical....

This is a governor who made fiscal conservatism when balancing the Vermont state budget a key aspect of his time in office. He quickly and privately signed a state gay unions bill, when a full gay marriage proposal was popularly being pushed. He has gone on record as saying that he would not touch defense spending as president, and would maintain funding for the unproven, hocus-pokus "Star Wars" missile shield program. He has flip flopped on the war, first saying it was totally immoral, and then saying it was wrong to go without a UN resolution. He is widely considered by many in Left-Wing Vermont to be a flat out Conservative, and people in Vermont think it's a lark that a guy who gets big money from AOL-TTime Warner and opposes legalizing marijuana for medical purposes has been compared to McGovern, or even more ridiculous, a Socialist.
Yet, you fail to recognize that this is one key stage in initiating the dictatorship of the proletariot. Dean wants business to submit to the workers. If Dean actually had this passed, it would be hell for the free market.

Quote:
FDR could be called, and has been called a Socialist on similar grounds. Ask a real Commie what they think of FDR, though. During the Great Depression, the North Country of New York State was bursting with talk of Socialist rebellion due to the horrid poverty. Your theory that an activist government implies Marxist leaning is silly, because every level of government intervention seems Socialistic to someone who wants everything privatized, from police to proms.
When someone wants free healthcare, free schooling, high progressive taxation, general extended government subsidies, and to force businesses to "negotiate" with unions, I call him a socialist. That is, by far, delving into the depths of not really capatilist, not really communist. It is the biggest joke to the laissez-faire principles we were founded upon since the New Deal.
Oct 22nd, 2003 04:03 PM
The One and Only...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Remember, socialism can mean "the stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved."
Where did you get this?

OAO, you have taken an idiotic atempt at an insult and tried to build something on it, Howard Dean is not a Socialist becasue he is a Capitalist! OH NO!
Dictionary.com is so wonderful, isn't it?
Oct 22nd, 2003 01:22 AM
Big Papa Goat Why does no one understand the difference between a welfare state and a socialist state?
Oct 22nd, 2003 12:06 AM
Zhukov Someone already had my username, and I sometimes use great generals of the past. I got the avatar and sig to fit.

I didn't plan on entering any political discussion, but it is much funnier than General Blabber. I would probably change the name if I got the chance.
Oct 21st, 2003 11:48 PM
The_Rorschach Just out of curiousity, what was it about Stalin's general that prompted you to use his name as your handle here at the Mock Zhuky?
Oct 21st, 2003 11:43 PM
Zhukov
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Remember, socialism can mean "the stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved."
Where did you get this?

OAO, you have taken an idiotic atempt at an insult and tried to build something on it, Howard Dean is not a Socialist becasue he is a Capitalist! OH NO!
Oct 21st, 2003 10:30 PM
KevinTheOmnivore And just to add to that, here are some quotes by Dean off his website:

http://soli.inav.net/~njohnson/kucinich/libdeane.html

From His Own Web Pages. Finally, here are some quotes from his own Web site, www.deanforamerica.com (as of July 8, 2003):

Capital Punishment: “I believe the death penalty should be available for extreme and heinous crimes . . .. [But it] should only be imposed after a fair trial.”

Environment: “[T]here are legitimate concerns about provisions of the [Kyoto] agreement. . . . We have to make practical trade offs.”

Homeland Security: “Governor Dean . . . would use these funds [from reversing the tax cuts] to establish a Homeland Defense Trust Fund . . . in addition to increased military, intelligence and police focus on offensive operation against terrorists . . . operating overseas . . . [and] our military special forces capabilities abroad . . ..”

National Security: “We are attacking Baghdad with a war budget. We need a war budget here at home . . ..”

Sensible Gun Laws: “I believe we should keep and enforce the federal gun laws we have . . . and then let the states decide for themselves what, if any, additional gun control laws they want . . . we need to resist attempts to tell states how to deal with guns . . ..”

Universal Healthcare: “We’ll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into. . . . We shouldn’t turn our back on the employer-based system we have now.”

Welfare Reform: “Vermont was the first state to implement a statewide time-limited welfare program.”
Oct 21st, 2003 10:14 PM
KevinTheOmnivore
Quote:
Originally Posted by The One and Only...
- Dean is all over socialized healthcare.
As were the Clintons, as well as past Democratic candidates. Republicans such as Eisenhower even supported expansive Medicare-like coverage for Americans. And our current president, Mr. Bush, plans to expand the already largest healthcare system in cost to the elderly. Nationalized healthcare is a norm in every other industrialized nation, so calling it a staple of international socialist ambition is just stupid on your part, OAO.

Quote:
- Dean supports repealing the Bush tax cuts to fund the above, Social Security, and "investments in job creation" i.e. more government job. Dean is not dumb enough to think that repealing those tax cuts would fund all of this, but that is his claim.
Progressive taxation was supported by all sorts, from Adam Smith onward. Even if your assertions of a Dean "New Deal" program were accurate, which they aren't, this would hardly justify calling the man a Socialist, unless viewed through the lense of a fringe free market radical.

Quote:
- Dean wants more expensive public schooling, including "broader access" higher education. Dean also wants lighter testing because it is "unfair" to poorer school districts.
And the point is? He's a socialist because he supports public schools? You need to stop readin lp.org OAO, seriously....

Quote:
- Dean supports (here's the big one) big labor like no other. I quote this from Dean's website:

"Right now there are no serious consequences if an employer ignores a newly formed union. There should be meaningful financial penalties available to federal regulators when an employer fails to negotiate in good faith with a union."

That, my friends, combined with Dean's natural tendency to intervene in what should be economic affairs, makes Dean a socialist.
Yet all of the unions are supporting Gephardt. :/ He must be a Socialist, too. You guys are hysterical....

This is a governor who made fiscal conservatism when balancing the Vermont state budget a key aspect of his time in office. He quickly and privately signed a state gay unions bill, when a full gay marriage proposal was popularly being pushed. He has gone on record as saying that he would not touch defense spending as president, and would maintain funding for the unproven, hocus-pokus "Star Wars" missile shield program. He has flip flopped on the war, first saying it was totally immoral, and then saying it was wrong to go without a UN resolution. He is widely considered by many in Left-Wing Vermont to be a flat out Conservative, and people in Vermont think it's a lark that a guy who gets big money from AOL-TTime Warner and opposes legalizing marijuana for medical purposes has been compared to McGovern, or even more ridiculous, a Socialist.

Quote:
Remember, socialism can mean "the stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved." Dean's submit-to-union tactic certainly is getting there, though.
FDR could be called, and has been called a Socialist on similar grounds. Ask a real Commie what they think of FDR, though. During the Great Depression, the North Country of New York State was bursting with talk of Socialist rebellion due to the horrid poverty. Your theory that an activist government implies Marxist leaning is silly, because every level of government intervention seems Socialistic to someone who wants everything privatized, from police to proms.
Oct 21st, 2003 08:44 PM
The One and Only...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore
Defend this, argue the point, otherwise shut the hell up, idiot.
I'll do it for him.

- Dean is all over socialized healthcare.

- Dean supports repealing the Bush tax cuts to fund the above, Social Security, and "investments in job creation" i.e. more government job. Dean is not dumb enough to think that repealing those tax cuts would fund all of this, but that is his claim.

- Dean wants more expensive public schooling, including "broader access" higher education. Dean also wants lighter testing because it is "unfair" to poorer school districts.

- Dean supports (here's the big one) big labor like no other. I quote this from Dean's website:

"Right now there are no serious consequences if an employer ignores a newly formed union. There should be meaningful financial penalties available to federal regulators when an employer fails to negotiate in good faith with a union."

That, my friends, combined with Dean's natural tendency to intervene in what should be economic affairs, makes Dean a socialist.

Remember, socialism can mean "the stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved." Dean's submit-to-union tactic certainly is getting there, though.
Oct 21st, 2003 07:47 PM
Helm See you're a stupid american that doesn't know how to use his language properly. It's your obligation to change that. I'm a stupid greek that doesn't have to know how to use your language properly either, but I'm not obliged to change that by any means and I'm certainly not obliged to run around looking up words for you. I suppose what you meant was something in the lines of high-mindedness, and if you used that word, Plato wouldn't cry.

Now you can go back to debating your futile point.
Oct 21st, 2003 07:22 PM
Perndog Sorry, Helm, I'm one of those Americans who uses words for their implied rather than traditional or dictionary meanings. Idealism to me is concentrating on the way things should be rather than the way they are (the converse would be realism). Tell me a better word to use for that, and I'll change, but otherwise idealism fits the bill.
Oct 21st, 2003 07:19 PM
Helm Please don't misuse the term 'idealism', Plato cries. Thank you.
Oct 21st, 2003 07:18 PM
KevinTheOmnivore
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceZeb
Howard Dean might as well join the Socalist party.

Defend this, argue the point, otherwise shut the hell up, idiot.
Oct 21st, 2003 07:14 PM
Perndog
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype
whatever jackass, the fact is that you are still taking part in petty partisanship. you aren't interested in what is best for the country, your just buying into the hype. fucking sheep.
Blah blah blah. You honestly think an independent has a decent chance of winning? I don't. And I don't vote for a loser in a pluralistic election, because to do so dilutes the pool against the party whose views I disagree with. A Republican, whose platform I more or less despised, became governor here in Minnesota because the Democrat and Independent candidates were so similar that half the Democratic voters went Independent - 60% voted for those two, 40% for the Republican. It's like being unable to choose between two flavors of ice cream and then eating chopped liver instead.

Partisanship is the way of the world. Fuck idealism and voting for your absolute favorite candidate - your vote doesn't matter a whole lot when he only gets 10%, and that vote could have been used for a more viable candidate who might be less appealing but is certainly better than the other major competitor. Our next president will be a Democrat or a Republican, no matter which way you or I vote. I choose between the two. Not because I haven't read about politics, not because I don't know what any of the other candidates stand for. Because this is what has an effect.

Buying into the hype, sheep my ass. This is the way things are. You're allowed to tell me I'm wrong as soon as there's a Libertarian in the White House.
Oct 21st, 2003 06:57 PM
The One and Only...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AChimp
Funny... I thought that the U.S. economy was doing better when there was a Democrat in office. :/
You wait and see what will happen with economy by the end of 2004. Bush knows what he's doing. Raising aggregate demand and using supply-side economics is not a bad strategy: in other words, it wasn't a bad move to INCREASE spending and SLASH taxes, primarily for the wealthy.

Unless, of course, you are worried about paying off the deficit.
Oct 21st, 2003 06:56 PM
ranxer this poll is depressing

i'm going to have a rough time voting for what i believe in..
primaries are easy, i believe in what kucinich has been saying.

voting for what you believe in requires you to look passed who you think is going to win, its soo sad that most americans need the polls to decide who they will vote for.. is it vain? damn, and the polling booths are private.. it's not like anyone would know who the hell you voted for.

this might be the first time i vote for the 'lesser of two evils' :/

the question i face after that is: how am i going to make up for it?
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