| Dec 23rd, 2003 09:46 PM |
| The One and Only... |
No, no... I meant nevermind with what I had posted, not with the point.
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 09:40 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
boohoo.
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 09:35 PM |
| The One and Only... |
Nevermind.
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 06:04 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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Originally Posted by The One and Only...
WHAT IS ABSURD IS GRANTING THE GOVERNMENT POWER TO DECIDE WHAT WE LEARN!!!
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Take it up with the Ad Council, stop barking up the wrong tree.....
EDIT: Proto, I'm glad you said that, because that has always been my philosophy. I've had shitty classes (note: not liberal or conservative classes, just SHITTY classes) where what I got out of the class was all up to me. This is how I have approached higher education, as well as my selection with graduate schools. I don't really care how "reputable" the institution is anymore, or whatever, because I know that learning is within my own capabilities and desires. It was just nice to hear. 
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 05:50 PM |
| Protoclown |
Gee, I always kind of figured that I alone possessed power to determine what I learned. I don't necessarily have the power to determine what I'm taught, but what I learn? All me, baby. All me.
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 02:12 PM |
| The One and Only... |
WHAT IS ABSURD IS GRANTING THE GOVERNMENT POWER TO DECIDE WHAT WE LEARN!!!
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 02:02 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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Originally Posted by Condescending, pseudo-intellectual twit
I still think you may be missing the issue, so I'll put it in broader terms: is it right for the goverment to provide public colleges which only hire teachers of certain ideologies?
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Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore, in previous post
No, I got your point, and I dismissed it. YES, it is perfectly moral, and to expect otherwise would be silly. The school I went to, for example, had a liberal Political Science department. You knew who the liberals were, you knew who the conservatives were, and you likewise knew what "school" of polisci they subscribed to. The Business and Public Policy schools, on the other hand, tended to swingmore conservatively. I took classeswith them all, understood their biases, and appreciated them for disclosing those biases.
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In other words, would you see a problem with public education systems hiring only left-wing individuals? If you do not, why do you object to public schools hiring only, say, whites?
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This is again a ridiculous comparison. Yes or No, do you think any potential hiree sits before the chosen department committee, and gets forced to answer the question "Der, is you a liberal or a Southerner??? Der, what party is you in???"
Professors are hired based on record, reputation, and publishing experience. Do certain academic fields tend to attract liberals more than conservatives? I won't deny it. But what you ask for is impossible and silly. Asking that a professor, who earned his occupation by being critical and taking positions on matters, to NOT take those positions AT ALL in the classrooom is absurd. PERIOD.
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 01:55 PM |
| The One and Only... |
I still think you may be missing the issue, so I'll put it in broader terms: is it right for the goverment to provide public colleges which only hire teachers of certain ideologies? In other words, would you see a problem with public education systems hiring only left-wing individuals? If you do not, why do you object to public schools hiring only, say, whites?
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 01:05 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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Originally Posted by The One and Only...
I'm aware of the fact about publishing. I was speaking about what they should teach in the classroom.
So then, if the majority of philosophy teachers taught that Objectivism is correct, you would not have a problem with that?
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What they should teach in the classroom is what they were hired to teach. If ANY philosophy department, however unlikely itmay be, were dominated by Objectivism, you'd have a few options. 1. Why is it so? Is the Chair of the department an Objectivist? Ask those questions. 2. If this school is clearly dominated by Objectivist philosophy, for whatever reason, is this then the right school for me? 3. If you have few options and MUST go to that school, are they allowing all opinions to be heard? Is this a conducive learning environment for most of the students in the classroom....?
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What if the teachers graded you based on your opinions?
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If this is proven, which is difficult, they should be fired.
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Taxation is an act of the government seizing and collecting property. In any case, you miss the point: is it moral for the government to hire people with my money that I disagree with?
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No, I got your point, and I dismissed it. YES, it is perfectly moral, and to expect otherwise would be silly. The school I went to, for example, had a liberal Political Science department. You knew who the liberals were, you knew who the conservatives were, and you likewise knew what "school" of polisci they subscribed to. The Business and Public Policy schools, on the other hand, tended to swingmore conservatively. I took classeswith them all, understood their biases, and appreciated them for disclosing those biases.
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In that case, I don't understand where you are coming from. While I have not, per say, been to college, I have been looking at colleges' and their professors' websites. My conclusions? Faculity at public universities tend to be more liberal, while faculity at private colleges lean more towards pro-market stances. I generally do not see conservativism in civil rights stances, although opposition to such things as Affirmative Action is more commonplace.
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Then you haven't been looking at enough private institutions, and you haven't been looking internally at enough departments and schools within the universities. The Kennedy School, although not Left extreme, is a liberal school that sets the mark for government/polisci programs. And again, you need to distinguish departments. Are you telling me the Biology department at George Mason swings Libertarian? Of course not. The departments you are focusing on, perhapd philosophy, economics, business, political science, history, etc., have hired their faculty for their own reasons. More often than not, they are slightly to fit an ideology, but more importantly to fit a certain "philosophy" that isdebated within the field. I've given the political science example, quantitative versus qualitative research, etc. It's in my experience that schools tend to swing towards a "way" of teaching something, as opposed to a specific ideology....
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 12:48 PM |
| The One and Only... |
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Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore
1. 
2. 
3. You are a petulant little kid. If professors don't publish at a four year institution, they are fired. They are HIRED to be critical and have biased opinions.
And as for your nonsense about "murdering all the lefties" as compared to "capital punishment is immoral," the comparison is absurd, and you deserve to be hit with a stupid stick. Capital punishment is a contentious issue that deserves its place in any ethics, sociology, or even public policy class. A good professor will fully disclose their biases, as opposed to muting them. A good professor will have open and frank debate within the class, allowing all sides to be heard. But expecting a professor to be silent and not give their educated opinions on the subject they specialize in, all because you have some retarded anti-government, utopian perspective on hoe college campuses run, is ridiculous.[/b] |
I'm aware of the fact about publishing. I was speaking about what they should teach in the classroom.
So then, if the majority of philosophy teachers taught that Objectivism is correct, you would not have a problem with that?
What if the teachers graded you based on your opinions?
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Again, look to the evidence, and then look to those who testified. Were the professors calling for a Maoist revolution? Were they calling for government seizure and collectivization of property? No. Were they telling females to have abortions and foresake God? No. The fact is, we don't know WHAT crimes thse liberal demons commited. All we know is that a bunch of kids feel discriminated against. This is certainly worth investigating, and if ANY professors personal biases towards INDIVIDUAL STUDENTS led them to grade them differently, they must be canned. But blaming this on liberalism on campus would be like blaming my speeding ticket on conservatism in the police department (I DO have that Nader 2000 bumper sticker, after all).
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Taxation is an act of the government seizing and collecting property. In any case, you miss the point: is it moral for the government to hire people with my money that I disagree with?
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I'm talking about the faculty.
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In that case, I don't understand where you are coming from. While I have not, per say, been to college, I have been looking at colleges' and their professors' websites. My conclusions? Faculity at public universities tend to be more liberal, while faculity at private colleges lean more towards pro-market stances. I generally do not see conservativism in civil rights stances, although opposition to such things as Affirmative Action is more commonplace.
Example of a libertarian college (at least economically)? George Mason University, a well-respected Virginia institution. They even have an anarcho-capitalist in their midst.
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 12:30 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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Originally Posted by The One and Only...
Whatever dribble is coming out of your mouth is complete hogwash.Professors are hired to teach information objectively when at college. They should not be allowed to teach "capital punishment is immoral" or "free trade is inhumane" any more than I should be allowed to say "we should murder all the lefties" in a classroom. Or do you not have a problem with that if I am a professor? Hell, a professor should not be allowed to make such statements even if facts support him if he ignores facts that oppose his position.
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1.
2.
3. You are a petulant little kid. If professors don't publish at a four year institution, they are fired. They are HIRED to be critical and have biased opinions.
And as for your nonsense about "murdering all the lefties" as compared to "capital punishment is immoral," the comparison is absurd, and you deserve to be hit with a stupid stick. Capital punishment is a contentious issue that deserves its place in any ethics, sociology, or even public policy class. A good professor will fully disclose their biases, as opposed to muting them. A good professor will have open and frank debate within the class, allowing all sides to be heard. But expecting a professor to be silent and not give their educated opinions on the subject they specialize in, all because you have some retarded anti-government, utopian perspective on hoe college campuses run, is ridiculous.
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Think about how government could screw us over if objectivity is thrown out of the window. It would subsidize schools that support its actions and further involvement in the economy. Or, if conservatives gained control, might seek to change public opinion on abortion, church and state, or foreign affairs.
In any case, how can you possibly defend seizing anothers assets and using it to hire someone whom I completely disagree with?
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Again, look to the evidence, and then look to those who testified. Were the professors calling for a Maoist revolution? Were they calling for government seizure and collectivization of property? No. Were they telling females to have abortions and foresake God? No. The fact is, we don't know WHAT crimes thse liberal demons commited. All we know is that a bunch of kids feel discriminated against. This is certainly worth investigating, and if ANY professors personal biases towards INDIVIDUAL STUDENTS led them to grade them differently, they must be canned. But blaming this on liberalism on campus would be like blaming my speeding ticket on conservatism in the police department (I DO have that Nader 2000 bumper sticker, after all).
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Of course you wouldn't, because you're not a liberal, and you consider yourself an academic. But to my knowledge you haven't stepped foot in a college classroom, am I correct? If liberals aren't drawn to academia, why is everyone bitching about liberalism on campus....?
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I think you'll find that most of the kids on campus are not so much drawn to academia as they are to beer, sex, and the chance to attain a higher pay load.
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I'm talking about the faculty.
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 11:59 AM |
| The One and Only... |
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Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore
This is complete hogwash. You hire a Phd because they have presumably put years of research, studying, and reading into their craft. You hire them because they come from a reputable institution or institutions. You review their dissertation, look at what they've published, how much they've published and where, etc.
You've heard the saying "publish or perish," right? Not only do professors share their biased opinions every day, but this is what they are hired to do. When you hire a financial consultant, you don't stop to question his philosophy on the market. You trust his record, his experience, and his background. Same thing.
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Whatever dribble is coming out of your mouth is complete hogwash. Professors are hired to teach information objectively when at college. They should not be allowed to teach "capital punishment is immoral" or "free trade is inhumane" any more than I should be allowed to say "we should murder all the lefties" in a classroom. Or do you not have a problem with that if I am a professor? Hell, a professor should not be allowed to make such statements even if facts support him if he ignores facts that oppose his position.
Think about how government could screw us over if objectivity is thrown out of the window. It would subsidize schools that support its actions and further involvement in the economy. Or, if conservatives gained control, might seek to change public opinion on abortion, church and state, or foreign affairs.
In any case, how can you possibly defend seizing anothers assets and using it to hire someone whom I completely disagree with?
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Of course you wouldn't, because you're not a liberal, and you consider yourself an academic. But to my knowledge you haven't stepped foot in a college classroom, am I correct? If liberals aren't drawn to academia, why is everyone bitching about liberalism on campus....?
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I think you'll find that most of the kids on campus are not so much drawn to academia as they are to beer, sex, and the chance to attain a higher pay load.
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 11:21 AM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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Originally Posted by The One and Only...
However, no professor at a state subsidized school should allow his biased views to influence the way he teaches.
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This is complete hogwash. You hire a Phd because they have presumably put years of research, studying, and reading into their craft. You hire them because they come from a reputable institution or institutions. You review their dissertation, look at what they've published, how much they've published and where, etc.
You've heard the saying "publish or perish," right? Not only do professors share their biased opinions every day, but this is what they are hired to do. When you hire a financial consultant, you don't stop to question his philosophy on the market. You trust his record, his experience, and his background. Same thing.
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I would not say that liberals tend to be drawn to academia any more than others.
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Of course you wouldn't, because you're not a liberal, and you consider yourself an academic. But to my knowledge you haven't stepped foot in a college classroom, am I correct? If liberals aren't drawn to academia, why is everyone bitching about liberalism on campus....?
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 08:38 AM |
| The One and Only... |
[quote="KevinTheHerbivore"]Schools and departments within universities, including state universities, hire internally. If the chair of a political science department happens to favor quantitative research over historical/theory based research, they will push to hire around that premise. New faculty are hired by committees, including the chair, generally. They will hire according to need, because a department is far more concerned with appealing to a broad spectrum than appealing to simply "Liberals."[/url]
However, no professor at a state subsidized school should allow his biased views to influence the way he teaches.
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Now, if the argument is that liberals in general tend to be drawn to academia, then that's a totally different matter. One, might I add, not exclusive to Colorado State.
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I would not say that liberals tend to be drawn to academia any more than others.
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 01:40 AM |
| kahljorn |
If I went to college, would I have to pick a "Side"?
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| Dec 23rd, 2003 01:04 AM |
| CastroMotorOil |
As a college student at Western Michigan University, I have noticed that professers tend to be more liberal. This is noticiable since the student body here is split at least 50/50 if not more conservative then liberal (western michigan is one of the more conservative areas of the nation if i remember correctly). I do not know why more teachers seem to be liberal but i can't deny noticing it. I also rember high school debate to be insanely liberal.
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| Dec 22nd, 2003 11:48 PM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Schools and departments within universities, including state universities, hire internally. If the chair of a political science department happens to favor quantitative research over historical/theory based research, they will push to hire around that premise. New faculty are hired by committees, including the chair, generally. They will hire according to need, because a department is far more concerned with appealing to a broad spectrum than appealing to simply "Liberals."
Now, if the argument is that liberals in general tend to be drawn to academia, then that's a totally different matter. One, might I add, not exclusive to Colorado State.
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| Dec 22nd, 2003 10:13 PM |
| The One and Only... |
It depends on the college. If it's partially paid for by the state, obviously it shouldn't be biased.
See, if it were like George Mason University, which is extremely pro-market in its economics department but, to my knowledge, is not funded by the state, it would be alright.
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| Dec 22nd, 2003 10:33 AM |
| mburbank |
Did a professor actually require students to buy a Michael Moore book for a class?
"Brian Glotzbach, a Metro student, said he has seen the required books other students buy for classes. He said most of the books are by liberal authors."
He never said it was a text he was required to buy, he said he's 'seen' it. The whole thing sounds like a highly questionable bitch session to me. If I were to testify before an Ad Hoc legislative commitee, I would bring actual evidence, which in this particularly easy to acquire in the form of a syllabus. Where I a legislator on an Ad Hoc committe, I'd like to think I'd want evidence as opposed to disgruntled student whining. I think the main thing thee kids should be complaining about is that their proifessors obviously haven't instilled any academic rigour or pride in them.
The same might be said for the Journalist who wrote the article but didn't look very deeply into any of the complaints. As a reader, I'd want to know.
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| Dec 22nd, 2003 12:43 AM |
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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Originally Posted by El Blanco
Why do you assume that?
Hell, its no secret that most colleges have a liberal slant.
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Now here's the question that hasn't been asked: If this school is so liberal, and the faculty is so incompetent as to assign Michael Moore for class reading, why then do these folks even want to get into their Phd program....?
If a school doesn't fit my needs for graduate work, I won't be applying there. And it isn't necessarily about finances, b/c graduate school is a slightly different animal. I will not be applying to Bob Jones University in the Fall of '04.......
EDIT: Let me expand upon this. Are these conservatives bitching because they wish to save the "integrity" of Colorado State, or are they doing this to raise hell and make a point that, as Blanco previously pointed out, is already clear....? A lot of conservative groups on campuses, realizing they're in a minority, do eye grabbing shit to get attention. I'd be interested to know how many of these kids who testified are members of the campus' College Republican club, or equivalent clubs.....?
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| Dec 21st, 2003 09:43 PM |
| Occupant |
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Originally Posted by El Blanco
Why do you assume that?
Hell, its no secret that most colleges have a liberal slant.
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I'm not arguing any college's leaning liberal or conservative. All I'm saying is that if, for the sake of arguement, a college were to have a noticable conservative bias and a group of students decided try taking their gripe in front of the legislature they'd need a hell of a lot more ammunition than the liberal equivalent of 'he made us read Michael Moore' if they were to have any hope of not being laughed out of the building. Would these 'liberal' students be taken seriously?
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| Dec 21st, 2003 12:39 PM |
| El Blanco |
Why do you assume that?
Hell, its no secret that most colleges have a liberal slant.
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| Dec 21st, 2003 11:42 AM |
| Occupant |
Alls I gotta say is that what this group of students is doing can only be acceptable if the practice of testifying in front of this ad hoc legislative committee over course content turns out to be a two way street. For some reason I find it hard to believe that a group of 'liberal' students would find the same eager audeince in the legislature if ever such a need may arise.
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| Dec 20th, 2003 01:47 PM |
| Anonymous |
I'd want an Ann Coulter history book for my birthday,
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| Dec 20th, 2003 01:32 PM |
| CastroMotorOil |
I beleive he meant that if micheal moore was a history author, so were they.
At least that is what i hope he meant, because otherwise that just makes us slight conservatives look really really really stupid 
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