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| Apr 22nd, 2004 10:21 AM | ||||||
| mburbank |
So you were just perusing his website, right? You didn't read about the quote and then follow a link there? -Me What the hell does that have to do with anything, Max? -You It has to do with my contention that you are allowing yourself to be manipulated. You were driven like a cow to a speciffic set of sentences that would make your blood boil, and it did. I've doone the same thing, but I promise you, I'm always thinking about and suspicious of the motives of the folks doing the driving. They had a goal for you and they achieved it. Go back and look at the site you followed the link from. What's their agenda? High minded debate? Information? Education? They want you to believe a quotes a quote and their moytives don't enter into it. Both sides have massive spin machines and they writ th context in which you'll view whatever you've been steered to. Don't trust them. Think for yourself. If you look back at the things I've written here, I've rarely tried to convince you (or bully you). I'm asking that you asses how you come to your opinions with rigour and self respect. Don't be someone's chump. THAT's what the hell it has to do with anything. "Hoping for the American soldiers to be driven out by insurgents. How is that not anti-American?" Well, lets see. I think this is a war of adventure and I totally feel that pre-emption is a dangerous concept that strikes at the very heart of what I think America is. I think everyone that dies in this needless war on either side digs away at who we are as a people. I feel that every doollar we spend on this war makes us more vulnerable becuase this isn't about Terrorists. If I had my choice, a new president would de-americanize this war, which would be very good thing for America. But if Bush, who I think is dangerous to America wins, I hope we get driven out of Iraq by the insurgents. becuase less american kids would die and we'd stop exporting a military vision of merica I think is utterly NOT in keeping with the things I deeply love about my country. This isn't a football game. I'm not rooting for a side. I love my country and think this war and this dministration is doing terrible, tragic damage to it that it will take generations to recover from. "We hate who, Max? The common Iraqi? The insurgents? " If you are making a claim that anyone in this country let alone this dministration has a handle on who's who in Iraq and what they want I think you are sorely mistaken. We can roughly divide them into three ethnic groups, but beyond that we haven't got a clue. All of this talk about 'insurgents' and 'dead enders' and 'baath party holdouts' and 'Islamic extremists' is just a list we're adding to every day. We don't know who we're fighting and we don't know who's on our side. One tenth of the police we trained fought against us. Most of the rest stayed home. We don't have any idea who or what the common Iraqi is. I'm guessing what you mean by the common iraqi are the ones who greeted us with flowers and candy and still love us now. There my be some, there may be a great many, but we have no idea if they are 'common' or not. "No, it just means that I'm not willing to call the war a total moral outrage because the administration acted unethically in lying about the reasons." That's where we disagree. I think a war is a pretty big deal, and I think wars unethically based on lies ARE a total moral outrage. The only thing I can think of more morally outrageous are wars of pure agression and conquest, and genocide. That's like saying beating someone isn't so bad as long as you don't rape and kill them. "Calling Michael Moore a traitor is not an emotional appeal. " Calling an American citizen a traitor is a very serious statement. It's the tip of the iceberg McCarthy built his adventure on. Calling someone traitor for saying something is appallingly unamerican and to me highly emotionally charged. That's why Ms. Coulter likes to do it, it's a red meat word. Perhaps you used it glibly and what you really meant was 'scumbag'. I'd disagree, but then I think our president is a scumbag, and he's not just a writer, he' commander in chief. I would never call him a traitor though. Traitors are people guilty of treason. Treason is a crime punishable by imprisonment and death. Calling Moore a traitor what he writes is one step removed from Muslim extremists issuing a Fattwah on Salman Rushdie. "leaving Saddam in power would have caused more suffering and death in the long run." Thanks, Psychic Brandon. I might agree with you there, but I'm not so sure I know, especially since we have no way of knowing how long things are going to go the way they're going right now. Yesterday a terrorist group, most likely Al Quaeda, blew up a whole bunch of people including two buses of kindergarten kids. Now, we didn't do that, and don't think we're to blame. But Al Quadea had no foothold under Sadaam, and never carried out any terrorist attacks in Iraq. Try telling the parents of those kids they're better off in the long run since we toppled their dictator. It's very easy for us to say they're better off. |
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| Apr 22nd, 2004 01:43 AM | ||||||
| Anonymouse |
Here is my advice to John Kerry: WAIST DEEP IN THE BIG MUDDY It was back in nineteen forty-two, I was a member of a good platoon. We were on maneuvers in-a Loozianna, One night by the light of the moon. The captain told us to ford a river, That's how it all begun. We were -- knee deep in the Big Muddy, But the big fool said to push on. The Sergeant said, "Sir, are you sure, This is the best way back to the base?" "Sergeant, go on! I forded this river 'Bout a mile above this place. It'll be a little soggy but just keep slogging. We'll soon be on dry ground." We were -- waist deep in the Big Muddy And the big fool said to push on. The Sergeant said, "Sir, with all this equipment No man will be able to swim." "Sergeant, don't be a Nervous Nellie," The Captain said to him. "All we need is a little determination; Men, follow me, I'll lead on." We were -- neck deep in the Big Muddy And the big fool said to push on. All at once, the moon clouded over, We heard a gurgling cry. A few seconds later, the captain's helmet Was all that floated by. The Sergeant said, "Turn around men! I'm in charge from now on." And we just made it out of the Big Muddy With the captain dead and gone. We stripped and dived and found his body Stuck in the old quicksand. I guess he didn't know that the water was deeper Than the place he'd once before been. Another stream had joined the Big Muddy 'Bout a half mile from where we'd gone. We were lucky to escape from the Big Muddy When the big fool said to push on. Well, I'm not going to point any moral; I'll leave that for yourself Maybe you're still walking, you're still talking You'd like to keep your health. But every time I read the papers That old feeling comes on; We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy And the big fool says to push on. Waist deep in the Big Muddy And the big fool says to push on. Waist deep in the Big Muddy And the big fool says to push on. Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a Tall man'll be over his head, we're Waist deep in the Big Muddy! And the big fool says to push on! Words and music by Pete Seeger (1967) TRO (c) 1967 Melody Trails, Inc. New York, NY |
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| Apr 22nd, 2004 12:50 AM | ||||||
| Brandon |
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Oh, by the way Kevin, have I ever told you how much I love you? 
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| Apr 22nd, 2004 12:01 AM | ||||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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 It's ok, buddy.It's about Michael Moore. It's about Michael Moore's comments making him unamerican, right? Do you follow thus far? Good. So, is Sen. Hagel unamerivcan? Should John Kerry condemn Sen. Hagel for being so anti-troops and so anti-american...? Answer this question, and then go get a tissue. Quote:
And aside from that one lame example you thought up, there are numerous examples that substantiate why we should work through the UN. One of them being the success of programs like UNICEF, and other aid providing services. UN vans get shot at, certainly, but not nearly as much as American troops. The UN also facilitates and assists in the monitoring of elections in unstable countries all around the world. So Brandon, yet another question for you to answer. Do you support sending more American troops to die, or do you support internationalizing the effort through the UN? If you agree with the former, then you find yourself in the same boat as "unamerican" Michael Moore. Quote:
Meanwhile, most people on this board condemned the killers in Fallujah for the pigs they are/were. I personally bought the argument in favor of killing Yassin, and could care less about Hamas. I prefer alternatives to violence, but when bad guys die, I don't cry so much. You made a stupid, moronic, and baseless statement, and you deserve to be held accountable for it. If you're going to make such a claim, then back it up, or shut the fuck up. I'm tired of you playing the victim here. |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 11:05 PM | ||||||
| Drew Katsikas | People like Moore are seen to be anti-American by many more than those who listen to far right conservative pundits. Again, adressing those people who have killed Americans as minutemen will always do the trick. | |||||
| Apr 21st, 2004 10:38 PM | ||||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 10:34 PM | ||||||
| davinxtk |
Our treatment isn't what I'm questioning, it's the very fact that we're the ones running things that they're fighting, and that's what I'm opposed to. I realize that for the time being we don't have much of a choice, but that doesn't make Moore anti-American for voicing this opinion! |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 10:28 PM | ||||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 10:26 PM | ||||||
| davinxtk |
That's barely subtext, it's almost spelled out. And who's to say they don't deserve it? They're fighting for the freedom of their country. They want us (and our influence) on the other side of their borders. Maybe we should get the fucking hint already. |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 10:21 PM | ||||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 10:14 PM | ||||||
| davinxtk |
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Besides, I'm talking about things outside of that quote, too. You say "America-hating swine" like he's got a track record or something. |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 10:05 PM | ||||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 09:53 PM | ||||||
| davinxtk |
He's not talking about the riots in Fallujah, you stupid fucks. He's talking about the insurgents. THE WORD INSURGENT IS IN THE QUOTE. What the fuck are you guys thinking? Quote:
It's not anti-American to dislike our administration, or voice your opinion about it. It doesn't make you unsupportive of the troops to protest against the war. This is all spelled out in the very first article of our own Bill of Rights. The right wing would like you to believe that the prominent left voices are anti-American. It's just, for the most part, not so. |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 09:20 PM | ||||||
| Brandon |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 08:42 PM | ||||||
| mburbank |
"First of all, the Moore quote came from his own website." So you were just perusing his website, right? You didn't read about the quote and then follow a link there? "No, but we're expected to do so, right Max? " Do you have trouble reading what I write? The part about suffering being suffering, the part about them hating us exactly the way we hate them? The part where I say the motivation makes no differnce to the dead and the suffering? Expected has nothing to do with it. Neither side gives a flying fuck about motivation, and why should they? Purety of motivtion brings no one back from the dead. "Nevertheless, a dictator was toppled. " That kind of makes you an 'ends justify the means' guy, Brandon. It also makes you pretty lucky. If you vote for W I sure hope the next war he starts is as serendipitous for you as this one. And as far as going to war over false pretenses goes, well, there may be serious long term repercussions and we may end up crusade, but hell, we toppled a tyrant. Even if that had nothing to do with it. "I'm not going to adress emotional appeals" Why? I adressed yours. Traitor. My God. I'm not trying to bully you into any speciffic set of beliefs. I am trying to get you to examine your beliefs. "You people only care about suffering when it can be traced back to the United States." That's a load of horseshit. I'll admit, I care somewhat more about suffering my tax dollars fund. You don't seem to care much about suffering we inflict as long as it balances out in the long run. We toppled a dictator! I'm so sorry we killed your kids, but hell, Sadaam probably would have done it if we hadn't, so it's no biggy. And what about the buckets of suffering we're fine with? Exactly how many people do we have to rack up in collateral damage (and remember, we're not counting) before you're no longer sure? You should set yourself a number. I care enough about suffering that I don't really spend a lot of time thinking about what their nationality is or the motivations of those who caused them to suffer. To me, a guy that burns to death in a building is a guy that burns to death in a building. You make a concious choice to missunderstand what I'm saying. Some wars may be avoidable, but this one was. It kills people in our uniforms and there's and it also kills their citizens, something they haven't done to us. Oh, and it leaves us more vulnerable then evernto actual terrorists, since our armed forces and intelligence are a little busy with this uneccesary war. |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 08:39 PM | ||||||
| Brandon |
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As for international involvement, you need look no further than Kosovo if you want to see how marvelous the U.N. is at handling caustic situations. THAT is a fucking quagmire, Kevin. Quote:
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| Apr 21st, 2004 08:22 PM | ||||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 07:59 PM | ||||||
| Brandon |
First of all, the Moore quote came from his own website. Quote:
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As far as the rest of the tirades in this thread go, I'm not going to address emotional appeals. You're only using them to bully me into agreeing with you by painting me as a heartless prick. I don't like war; war is hideous, but it's a necessary evil at times. The world is a better place without Saddam Hussein in control, and leaving him alone would have caused much more suffering in the long run than overthrowing him. You people only care about suffering when it can be traced back to the United States. |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 07:15 PM | ||||||
| mburbank |
"The motivation is different, even though it's a poor one. " While I agree with you about that, folks standing around a bombed out building looking at body parts don't usually take a moment to say "You know, before we give in to rage, I think we should examine the motivation of the guys who dropped that bomb." Dead is dead. Suffering is suffering. I hate Osama Bin Laden for bringing that to America. I hate anyone who kills folks and then plays with the bodies. But I have no connection to those things. A large chunk of the money I earn is paying for this war. I am a participant is this suffering. In Afghanistan I thought that an unavoidable tragedy, but it still made me feel sick. In Iraq? My money is killing people and putting Americans in front of bullets because W. thinks God wants him to do it. |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 06:46 PM | ||||||
| Royal Tenenbaum | It's so easy to say, "I know I wouldn't do that if it happened." Fuck that, if you had a bunch of Iraq soldiers boming your city and pushing you around you'd learn to hate pretty fast. I'm not saying I would know exactly what I would do if some type of foreign entity tried to take control of my conuntry, but I can guarantee I wouldn't be just sitting around like a pacifist waiting to see what goes down. And you have to remember, a lot of these pissed off people have had relatives killed because of this. How about I kill your parents, and then you give me a nice, big hug? Instead, you'd probably want to beat me to death and hang me from a bridge. Yeah, it really sucks that the American soldiers are being held responsible for the actions of politicans, and that they are dying because of it, but, like Moore said, this is a war that was supported. If America doesn't want to see more dead Americans, Bush will lose, but, from the looks of it, people don't care, and getting a slight tax-break of a hundred bucks or whatever is worth a lot more than a couple hundred dead soldiers. | |||||
| Apr 21st, 2004 06:37 PM | ||||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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And why the fuck should John Kerry condemn Michael Moore? Should George W. Bush go out of his way to condemn the nuy jobs on the Right like Pat Robertson who support him? No, he doesn't, b/c they represent a group of voters that he needs to maintain. It's not like John Kerry is going out of his way for Moore, to condemn Moore would only lose voters for Kerry, not draw them in. And as for Moore being unamerican, that's just nonsense. The guy has dedicated his life to advocating for American jobs. Call him protectionist, call him regressive, but unamerican he certainly is not. |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 06:21 PM | ||||||
| Drew Katsikas |
Max, I KNOW I wouldn't kill someone, never mind mutilate a non-soldier occupant. Secondly, ridiculous as the war is, we're not bin laden. Most of us don't hate every Iraqi and wish to see them dead. The motivation is different, even though it's a poor one. Lastly, people in Iraq hate us. I wouls hate them if they invaded my cxountry. However, I would not kill them and mutilate their bodies, and the language Moore used celebrated these people. Minutemen cleary carries a heroic connotation. |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 06:09 PM | ||||||
| mburbank |
'traitor' Brandon? First of all, I don't think he's advocating our defeat. As occupiers we could go home, but we can't be defeated. Secondly, I'm pretty sure the excercise of free speech, no matter how odius you might find it isn't 'traitorus'. Now, if he goes over to Iraq and joins the resistance, that's different. But in America he can say whatever he wants and he's still American. Do you find what he said more or less repulsive than Rumsfled calling our troops 'fungible', a term I've never heard used for living, breathing human beings before. Moore? Not in any way involved in the death of anyone. Rumsfeld? Hip deep in decisions directly connected to American and Iraqi dead. Pull yourself together. Worry about real shit that means something. If you don't like Kerry and think Bush would be a better president, I think you're wrong, but at least it matters. This is a bullshit side alley that someone somewhere hopes people like you will go down. Where did you hear this Moore quote? On a Moore site? Or was it reported by some other site with an agenda of their own, something along the lines of filling the heads of swing voters with inconsequential crapola that has little to do with anything at all? |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 06:01 PM | ||||||
| mburbank |
You don't have any idea what you'd do or not do. I'm nt a supporter of corpse mulitation, but I'll tell you what. An iraqui who dies when a US bomb blows up his yje building he's in dies the exact same horrible death as folks in the trade towers did. The mother's and siblings, husbands and wives and children left behind suffer exactly the same way. I don't think where the bombs came from brings the dead back to life or eases the suffering of the survivors. And here's the thing; Iraqis didn't fly the damn planes into the twin towers. So it's possible they think their dead are innocent victims, just the way we think of our dead. I'm sure lots of Iraqis still hate Sadaam. But I doubt anyone who's friends or children are dead because of us wants to thank us for their deaths. You know how you feel about the people in Fallujah? That's exactly how they feel about us. That's how they're able to mess around with corpses. I'm glad your sure you'd never do anything like that. The thing is, you don't have to. Your part of a nation that can mutilate corpses from the air. Who gives a crap how Moore phrases it? Does W. need to repudiate Anne Coulter? Screw that nonsense. Michael Moore is a commentator. This is still America and he, like Coulter can say whatever the hell he wants. Getting all wiggy about Sontag or Moore or Coulter or Limbaugh is a sideshow and confusing it for meaningful beyond the entertainment of having your views confirmed or getting righteously angry (both of which I sometimes enjoy) is a disservice to dead serviceman and dead Iraqis. Are the insurgents the minutemen? To me, no. To a redcoat in the revolutionary war, don't be so sure. But what's the magic number before this is an uprising and not 'dead enders' and 'holdouts' and 'foreign fighters'. And for those of you who think that this was ever in any way even remotely about toppling a dictator, I remind you, many of the same people in this administration worked side by side with Sadaam when he was a dictator. many of our current alies in the 'war on terror' are dictators. The world is fucking chock a block with dictators. If you think America should be in the business of toppling dictators because of who and what they are you should seriosuly look at any warm fuzzy feelings you have for W. and crew because they are just fine with dictators. Moore? Coulter? Sontag? Limbaugh? Spleen venters with a pulpit some of whom I generally like and some of whom I generally loathe. W? A man who controls the army of the worlds only superpower. I'm not wasting my time worrying about what paid pundits lather about. hat's for writting comedy about. |
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| Apr 21st, 2004 05:49 PM | ||||||
| Brandon |
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