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| Feb 2nd, 2005 05:39 PM | |||||||||
| kellychaos | I was referring primarily to the incidents at GTMO, btw. If you are including the case of Abu'Grab (sp?), then yes, I agree that that was horrendous, uncalled-for and doesn't represent the military, imho. I still want to see how far up the chain THAT goes, or whether the soldiers at the bottom will be the scape-goats and that will be the end of it. | ||||||||
| Feb 2nd, 2005 03:49 PM | |||||||||
| Ant10708 |
Troublesome terror suspects in Iraq just get shot. They get to keep there pants on. Four shot dead in Iraq jail riot Abu Ghraib Prison, Iraq The US says it holds about 7,000 inmates in prisons across Iraq Four prisoners have been shot dead by US guards during a riot at an Iraqi jail, the US military has said. The trouble blew up at the Camp Bucca prison in southern Iraq, after a routine search of cells, the US military said in a statement. The riot "spread to three additional compounds", and lasted 45 minutes before guards opened fire, it said. An investigation has been launched into both the unrest and the use of force to deal with it, the military added. Six other prisoners were injured in the unrest at the prison, near the port of Umm Qasr, the military said. 'Increasingly volatile' The statement said prisoners were "throwing rocks and fashioning weapons from materials inside their living areas". "Guards attempted to calm the increasingly volatile situation using verbal warnings and, when that failed, by use of non-lethal force," it said. "After about 45 minutes of escalating danger, lethal force was used to quell the violence." Elsewhere in Iraq, three US marines were killed in a roadside bombing south of Baghdad. The military said the three were conducting a security operation in Babil province when they died. It gave no further details. An internet warning purportedly posted by the Iraqi wing of al-Qaeda, run by the wanted Jordanian militant leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, has vowed to continue its struggle despite Sunday's election, which it dismissed as an "American game". "We in the al-Qaeda Organisation for Holy War in Iraq will continue the jihad until the banner of Islam flutters over Iraq," it said. |
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| Feb 2nd, 2005 03:45 PM | |||||||||
| Ant10708 |
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| Feb 2nd, 2005 11:30 AM | |||||||||
| mburbank | I am so completely there for you. | ||||||||
| Feb 1st, 2005 09:31 PM | |||||||||
| El Blanco |
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| Feb 1st, 2005 05:37 PM | |||||||||
| mburbank |
As in... "(AP) - Videotapes of riot squads subduing troublesome terror suspects at the U.S. prison camp at Guantanamo Bay show the guards punching some detainees, tying one to a gurney for questioning and forcing a dozen to strip from the waist down, according to a secret report." See, in 42 years I've seen a hell of a lot of riot conrtrol and I've never seen rioters stripped from the waist down. What is it about us that we are DESPERATE to see Iraqi genitalia? Is there some official doctrine that says "The best way to win the hearst and minds of the Iraqi people than to let them know we really want a look at their men's cocks." "Freedom and forcing guys to show you their genitals is on the march!" "The Iraqi people will welcome us with open arms and dropped trousers. Especially the prisoners" I'm not saying that taking a guys pants off is torture or even that bad. I'm just saying, if we don't know by that in Ahbu Garib there are NO CIRCUMSTANCES under which TAKING A GUYS PANTS OFF is going to play well, it's because we are retarded. |
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| Feb 1st, 2005 05:34 PM | |||||||||
| kellychaos |
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| Feb 1st, 2005 05:27 PM | |||||||||
| mburbank |
For the sake of argument, okay, though I think the stovepiping of intelligence, the outsourcing of interrogation and the dominance of the Pentagon over both State and CIA point to a different conclusion, but for arguments sake... Now that we know our SUV's are unarmored and we're in urban combat, might we not make a really good effort to armor them? And don't say we are, because after the last time W said that, HUMV said they were perfectly capable of doing a lot more a lot faster and had said so before. Now that we know we are torturing people, might we not want to cut it the fuck out? Now that we know people finding out we strip pisoners and make them blow each other was kind of bad PR, might we not want to stop doing shit like that? It's one thing to say that stuff like that has been going on secretly for a long time. It's no secret now. What say we start actually taking reality into account? |
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| Feb 1st, 2005 05:04 PM | |||||||||
| kellychaos | My point being: The military structure really hasn't changed in a while. We were never armored in such a way as to resiliently withstand urban warfare and terrorist attacks. The intelligence community have consisted of the same personnel (or similiar people, cabinet-wise) for a couple of administrations. The method in which we gather intelligence in the military and use that intelligence in interrogation (and the morality involved) has, not really, devolved. General Pershing has never been disproven of burying Philippine muslims with pigs as a means of psychological intimidation. Just hypothetically musing, but it would be my conjecture that the only difference between the present administration and a democratic one, given that they were in power at the start of this involvement, is that they probably wouldn't have involved themselves, at least not in the same bumbling way. | ||||||||
| Jan 31st, 2005 08:08 PM | |||||||||
| mburbank | Good thing, to. I bet if you dragged Donald Rumsfeld into the light of day he'd burst into fire. | ||||||||
| Jan 31st, 2005 06:00 PM | |||||||||
| kellychaos | Point taken. I just wanted to get a sense of who you were mad at and why ... the source and motivation behind your argument. For the record, I don't think the behaviour of the military reflects any sweeping societal change brought on by the current administration so much as a societal change that allows things that were once able to be hidden by the military which are now being exposed to the light. Think WWII propaganda film footage with GI happily eating C-rations. See? Damned telecommunications technology! They can't hide nothing anymore. | ||||||||
| Jan 31st, 2005 05:59 PM | |||||||||
| Ant10708 | Batman would never allow such things to happen. | ||||||||
| Jan 31st, 2005 05:25 PM | |||||||||
| mburbank |
A.) My comments would be EXACTLY the same, but I'd feel even worse, as I did during "Welfare Reform". Sick and betrayed as opposed to just sick. B.) While I think it could have happened, I think it would have been a LOT less likely. I think this administration has encouraged (across the board, not just on the subject of torture) and attitude of 'you know what kind of things we want, you do whatever all you think you ned to do to get that done and we won't look too close until y'all get caught, at which point will talk about hw we don't like that kind of crap and then promote you or give you a medal of freedom. C.) This IS happening NOW. Clinton is not president NOW. I answered the hypothetical, but just to be clear? I mad about where we as a country are ACTIVELY GOING not where we might have gone under other various fictional circumstances. And for the record, if Batman or Jesus had been president and this had happened, I would be just as mad. |
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| Jan 31st, 2005 05:17 PM | |||||||||
| kellychaos |
So on to other means of interrogation where we will probably, again, get our faces spit at. I would ask of all of you, "Do you think that the military would use a different means of interrogation under the Clinton administration and, if so, would your comments be the same?" |
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| Jan 30th, 2005 07:23 PM | |||||||||
| Ant10708 |
So does anyone know what is an effective way to gather information from captured people that we suspect of being involved with terrorism? That guy from Pakistan that was the computer expert. Does anyone know how we cracked and convinced him to join our side and spill the beans on some big guys like the African embassy bomber? I would also like to point out that just because these guys spit on the interrogators doesn't mean it is because of the method used. I bet half of them spit in our faces when we begin asking them any questions despite the clothing we have on. And every method can't work for every person anyways. But I do agree that this seems ineffective. |
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| Jan 29th, 2005 07:39 PM | |||||||||
| mburbank |
"...considering the way we would be treated if the situation were reversed." We'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think 'the way we would be treated' is a good way to judge ourselves. I think that's a cheap ass excuse for allowing yourself to do stuff you know is wrong. AND if you read the article, all it gets is your opponent spitting in your face. So, it's ineffective, and it's a bad thing to do. Michael Tyson bites peoples ears off. That does not make it okay for me to kick you in the nuts and while you lie there tell you, 'Yeah, well, if Mike Tyson had you, He bite off your ear, so quit your damn whining.' Ask yourself, what are we actually trying to do? Protect ourselves? Spread democracy? Fight terrorism? I find it really hard to believe we advance any of those goals by 'punking' Iraqis with fake Menstrual blood. AND it makes me think that when we pile 'em up naked and make them blow each other that maybe, just maybe, it has nothing to do with 'a few bad apples' and has maybe a little more to do with a morally bankrupt attitude toward prisoners. Now I might be more inclined towards moral bankruptcy if I thought this kind of crap was even marginally effective, but there's no evidence at all it is. And moral bankruptcy is NOT graded on a curve. |
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| Jan 29th, 2005 05:22 PM | |||||||||
| kellychaos |
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I have not supported the cause for this war nor do I particularly like the fact that we have to subject our military members to being there now or doing the types of things (as above) that they have to do but I'm way past the "spilled milk" stage. We are deep into this and we have to sometimes do ugly things toward a good end. But again, my thinking is this whole thing is going to end up in a huge civil war after our redeployment and all will be for naught. Say, really. |
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| Jan 29th, 2005 05:15 PM | |||||||||
| kellychaos |
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It's obviously effective or someone would have written a "whistle blowing" book about the outrage and injustice of it all.[/quote] Quote:
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| Jan 29th, 2005 02:22 PM | |||||||||
| mburbank |
"I think that it's quite laughable considering the known methods of torture that Saddam used on his own people. Honestly Max, would you rather we beat, bludgeon, set fire to, electrify, ect them? " That's a totally stupid argumemt and it assumes a lot. If I say I'm against beating prisoners with rubber hoses, am I say I'd rather we beat tem with tire irons? In a nutshell; This is a stupid, ugly, cruel way for US to behave; It has, at best, very questionble utility; it's BOUND to make us look bad when it comes out, It confirms for people all over the world that OUR talk of morality is hypocritical. It's a bad idea. Or are YOU saying you think having our female soldiers tart themselves up, jam their hands in their pants and spread fake menstrual blood on people's faces is a noble, patriotic and marvelous gesture of America's embrace of freedom? |
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| Jan 29th, 2005 02:51 AM | |||||||||
| BlueOatmeal | I think I'm going to blow up a building. That way I can touch some boobies. This is going to be the fastest New Years resolution ever! | ||||||||
| Jan 28th, 2005 11:23 PM | |||||||||
| davinxtk |
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Sorry Max. Go ahead. |
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| Jan 28th, 2005 07:40 PM | |||||||||
| El Blanco |
I would just like to admit that I've been secretly an agent of al queda, al jazeera, al sharpton, al cohol.......whatever it takes to get into gitmo and be "tortured" like that. On second thought, by the time I get there, they will have probably moved on to Paulie Shore movie marathons. |
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| Jan 28th, 2005 05:20 PM | |||||||||
| kellychaos |
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| Jan 28th, 2005 05:03 PM | |||||||||
| Alive | Sounds like the u.s. goverment today allright. our troops are dying over there, and there troops are getting free lap dances from us. (putting aside all torture talk of course) | ||||||||
| Jan 28th, 2005 04:42 PM | |||||||||
| ItalianStereotype |
it seems like there's a lot of gray area where torture is involved. I don't know if I exactly condone this sort of behavior from our own troops, but is it really torture? I don't see these prisoners waking up in a cold sweat 20 years down the road from a "dirtiness flashback." when we think ourselves too gentlemanly, we make a fatal error. it happened to the British, the Romans, the French, etc. |
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