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Mar 16th, 2005 10:13 PM

ziggytrix

I live in Texas - I can't take that for granted unless I'm talking about Christians, and even then it better not be Catholics.

Mar 16th, 2005 07:42 PM

Abcdxxxx

Islamic fanatacism has developed into Islamic Fascism.

Aren't we all mature enough that we can talk about criminals motivated by their religious ideals without having to point out that not all religious people are criminal too?

Mar 15th, 2005 11:16 AM

ziggytrix

Did you mean fascism or fanaticism? Either way - I don't care if it's Islamic, Christian, or secular - I certainly wasn't intending a defense of them. I just want people to keep in their head that it's the fanatics who are the enemy, and not all religious people are fanatics.

Mar 13th, 2005 08:30 PM

Abcdxxxx

Unfortunately, they haven't really called for peace.

As for the Quran, it's available online. If you had a large base of Jews or Christians using the Old/New Testaments to oppress, and commit acts of violence on a large scale basis, today in modern civilization, then maybe that would be a good defense of Islamic fascism.

Mar 13th, 2005 03:47 AM

ziggytrix

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kev

Will innocent people get kidnapped and beheaded in Spain due to this position?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanc

So, if in retaliation, some of bin Laden's people blow up a shopping mall full of people in Madrid to punish the council, is it still a unhestitated "yes"?

This is EXACTLY what I was getting at. And my answer is still yes - because you can hardly blame the council for the violent actions of terrorists when they are calling for peace! That's like blaming Dr. King for racial violence. If people stop asking for peace because someone is killed, then they aren't serious about asking for peace. I say never stop calling for peace, and never fear the "consequences" of calling for peace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

Unless you think killing and violence are necessary conditions of humanity.

I think there are many muslims who would probably agree with that.

Define many. Many people would have said "most." I would very much like to read the Q'ran, because I often hear passages cited trying to show what a violent and intolerant religion it is, but heck, you take half a dozen of the Old Testament passages and you could paint Christianity as a violent, intolerant religion. There are many people who would agree with the necessity of violence - muslim, christian, or whatever - actually, scares the shit outta me when people use their religion to justify violence. A "holy" war with modern technology could easily wipe us all off the face of the planet.

Quote:

this public decree might not be all that big of a deal. That, I think, is partly the reason Blanco raised the question. He also did it to start conversation, which is what we all do, so stop being so damn anal.

Well fuck man, I thought I was conversing! When did you become such a damn pain in the ass? He asked if it was good that these muslims issued this fatwa, and I said, yes, hell yes, how could it be bad? We can sit here all day and talk about how good it is, but I'd be extremely disappointed if someone said "this is a bad thing." I'm so sorry I didn't interpret his question the same way as you did Kevin.

Mar 13th, 2005 03:22 AM

Zhukov

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Blanco

I've learned to not take things for granted.

A few years ago, I would have never believed people outside of NK would claim to be willing to defend Kim Jong Il's regime to the death. A few forums have changed my mind.

Politicsforum.org?

Mar 13th, 2005 12:49 AM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

Yes, and the answers are "yes" and "yes" no hesistation, no equivocation. Unless you are opposed to peace. Unless you think killing and violence are necessary conditions of humanity.

I think there are many muslims who would probably agree with that.

Quote:

Sure these people are sticking their necks out by doing this, but EVERY peacemaker EVER has stuck his neck out on the chopping block of those who profit from war.

But as our charming, yet terribly bitter friend ABC pointed out, this public decree might not be all that big of a deal. That, I think, is partly the reason Blanco raised the question. He also did it to start conversation, which is what we all do, so stop being so damn anal.

Mar 12th, 2005 06:16 PM

El Blanco

So, if in retaliation, some of bin Laden's people blow up a shopping mall full of people in Madrid to punish the council, is it still a unhestitated "yes"?

Its the whole big picture thing.

Mar 12th, 2005 01:14 PM

ziggytrix

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

Yes, and the answers are "yes" and "yes" no hesistation, no equivocation. Unless you are opposed to peace. Unless you think killing and violence are necessary conditions of humanity.

Sure these people are sticking their necks out by doing this, but EVERY peacemaker EVER has stuck his neck out on the chopping block of those who profit from war.

Mar 12th, 2005 11:41 AM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Fatwas are a kangaroo court, and Spain has no Sharia status in civil law. Madrid Sunni's ex-communicating Saudi wahhabists? Um.

But isn't there some degree of signifigance in this coming from Spain? I mean, wasn't there something to the Madrid attack last year? Is there any kind of opinion within the muslim world that Spain is sort of the territory that got taken from them by the rotten infidels....?

Mar 12th, 2005 08:07 AM

Abcdxxxx

A Fatwa is just a religious decree.

On the surface this is good, even if it's a few years late. These condemnations, along with news that a female will lead prayers in a mosque, are good signs. They're accusing Bin Laden of being a secular apostate. That's a plus.

Then again, It's also a little it ridiculous. The Saudi's issued a Fatwa against terrorism in 2003, right before the Embassy got hit in Bagdahd. Fatwas are a kangaroo court, and Spain has no Sharia status in civil law. Madrid Sunni's ex-communicating Saudi wahhabists? Um. Then there's the rest of the Fatwa text, which gives a hint that their real desire is to forbid Westerners from connecting Islam to terrorism forbidding anyone from calling Bin Laden a Muslim. Then it ends with a pat on the back to Spain for not responding to it's terror hit.

Mar 12th, 2005 02:48 AM

El Blanco

Quote:

I personally know a couple muslims who rationalized the fuck out of 9/11.

I know a bunch of stupid white kids who did it too.

And, BPG, this goes beyond a tactful denial. This is a great big public, "NO". I'm not sure what kind of weight these clerics hold world wide, but they at the very least are going to be well known.

Mar 12th, 2005 02:44 AM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Papa Goat

I mean, is it really a surprise to anyone that moderate muslims in Spain or other Western countries oppose Islamic terrorism?

okay, so I had a bit to drink tonight, so I needed to re-read your thing here. What about France? Heck, what about here in America? I personally know a couple muslims who rationalized the fuck out of 9/11. I don't think you should assume that muslims simply being in a "western" nation makes them moderate....

Mar 12th, 2005 02:36 AM

KevinTheOmnivore

I think Spain holds a slightly more signifigant role in the muslim world than simply being "another western nation."

But I wasn't aware that the Spanish muslims had already denounced Bin Laden. Thanks for the contribution!

Mar 12th, 2005 02:14 AM

Big Papa Goat

Haven't the moderate spanish muslims already tacitly expressed opposition to Bin Laden and other extremists by their lack of support or acknowlegement of his activities and fatwas? I mean, is it really a surprise to anyone that moderate muslims in Spain or other Western countries oppose Islamic terrorism?

Mar 12th, 2005 02:01 AM

El Blanco

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

Yeah like anyone killed in peaceful protest. Great leaders like Martin Luther King, Jr. or even Jesus.

Stupid peaceniks deserve to be killed. Not like they can convince EVERYONE to stop acting like animals, who do they think they are, anyway! Am I right, Blanco?

I didn't mean I thought they were bad people. Someone obviously did though.

Ghandi and Malcolm X were killed by their own for preaching peace. Jesus was set up by His own.

You honestly don't think this council is putting itself at risk making a big declaration like this?

Mar 12th, 2005 01:45 AM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

I only see the relevance of the question if someone here has some convuluted logic as to why this would be a BAD thing.

Okay, he said this:

"So, is this a good thing? Does this signify that moderate Muslims are standing up and reminding people that Islam is supposed to be about peace?"

We're talking about the same question here, right? I think, again, it's fair for Islamic amateurs such as ourselves to ask that question. Like I said, it seems like a good thing, but could it create a backlash against moderate Islam? Will innocent people get kidnapped and beheaded in Spain due to this position? I think you could ask, well, is this news perhaps even superfluous....? I don't know, do you?

Quote:

If you have a scenario in which the promotion of peace and the condemnation of violence against innocents is a bad thing, please share it.

You know he wasn't asking us whether or not the protection of the innocent is a good thing. Sheesh.

Mar 12th, 2005 12:21 AM

ziggytrix

Mar 11th, 2005 11:56 PM

El Blanco

Well, there was this dude named Ghandi a while back. That whole peace and condemn violence thing didn't work too well for him.

Mar 11th, 2005 10:05 PM

ziggytrix

I only see the relevance of the question if someone here has some convuluted logic as to why this would be a BAD thing.

If you have a scenario in which the promotion of peace and the condemnation of violence against innocents is a bad thing, please share it.

Mar 11th, 2005 08:24 PM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

I really just don't see the point of your question.

And I don't understand how you can't see the relevance in him raising the question. Bin Laden is still revered in many parts of the Middle East, sexism and suppression of free thought still seem to rule the day throughout much of the religion. We are accustomed to dealing with the sort of Islam that flys planes into towers, blows up innocent people, beheads aid workers, and assassinates documentarians who produce critical pieces on Islamic treatment of women.

Look, I'm certainly no expert on Islam. Perhaps someone like ABC could enlighten us on the signifigance of this public gesture. But it seems refreshing to me to see moderate voices stand up tall and denounce the more radical fringe. I think it's a good question, and yes, it's a good thing.

Mar 11th, 2005 02:28 PM

El Blanco

It was an example of something I took for granted. I figured everyone agreed that KJI was a dictator and was harming his people and the world would be a better place without him. Imagine my surprise the first few times.

Its entirely possible someone here will be outraged over this fatwa news. They may have a legitimate reason for that. I think it s a good thing, but again, I won't take it for granted.

Mar 11th, 2005 02:20 PM

ziggytrix

What does that have to do with whether or not its good that Muslims are saying terrorism is not an Islamic value?

I really just don't see the point of your question.

Mar 11th, 2005 02:11 PM

Spectre X

Wooo Muslims!

Three cheers for Muslims!

Hip hip

hooray

hip hip

hooray

hip hip

hooray.

This just makes me kinda giddy for some reason.

Mar 11th, 2005 01:25 PM

El Blanco

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