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Jun 27th, 2003 02:13 AM

Big Papa Goat

I am enjoying this vince bashing, I just wanted to comment on something I read in the article
True conservatives, for example, support lower taxes and smaller government. But I never thought they'd countenance tax cuts so extreme that, when piled atop a weak economy, turn a projected $5.7 trillion budget surplus into a now-projected $4 trillion deficit. That's not conservative. That's irresponsible.
This, I think is exactly what is wrong with the Bush government, and I agree that it has nothing to do with being conservative, its just that Bush IS a moron. Its been said before, its been true before, and godammit, its true now. I mean, a conservative that racks up a deficit... what good is that? You might as well have a liberal in this case, at least they'll give you some goverment services for the money they're spending, instead of just missles and bombs to blow up brown people on the other side of the planet.

Jun 26th, 2003 09:27 PM

VinceZeb

Also, Issac, it seems that your little argument about communism got throughly trashed, even after your other pal over there is still trying to fight with a shattered weapon and shield.

Jun 26th, 2003 09:26 PM

VinceZeb

Max, I am still waiting for you to answer me back at Newsfilter! Are you going to do so or are you going to sit here and talk smack about how I ignore the debate? I've been waiting for 3 days. Seems like you are the only one who isnt up to it.

Jun 26th, 2003 07:47 PM

Helm

This is pretty brutal to watch.

Jun 26th, 2003 01:15 PM

mburbank

Say, Vince! I know! Why don't you PROVE Eye Tie is third rate by debating him on another board! Then you can ignore his questions, post the wrong links, play x-box, sleep and let Walt Byers make your arguments for you!

Jun 26th, 2003 11:50 AM

KevinTheOmnivore

Now I wonder why Vince skipped over this particular thread.....

Jun 26th, 2003 10:45 AM

Vibecrewangel

LOL

Mmmmmmm fried cheese

Jun 26th, 2003 04:29 AM

ItalianStereotype

here I thought I was a master debater

A-HYUCK A-HYUCK HEE HAW HAW HAW

:vince :vince :vince

but seriously vince, take the fried cheese out of your mouth and put your money there instead.

Jun 26th, 2003 12:23 AM

Miss Modular

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype

you think I am such a third rate player? well, prove it bubby. why don't you point out specifically which posts in which arguments make me third rate.

Well, I'm not Vince, Eye-tie, but first of all, your posts are lacking schoolyard insults and homoeroticism. You're also using logic instead of ad hominems and other fine fallacies to make your point. I don't know what to say, Italian, but I'm extremely disappointed in you as a debater.

Jun 26th, 2003 12:12 AM

ItalianStereotype

vince, I know I am probably wasting my energy here, but I'm going to try anyway. you think I am such a third rate player? well, prove it bubby. why don't you point out specifically which posts in which arguments make me third rate. was it the discussion about the Crusades where you made a vague, unsubstantiated claim which I disproved with my factual evidence? maybe? or could it have possibly been that one post I made pointing out ENTIRE THREADS devoted to your sheer asininity (which, by the way, you failed to respond to; I'm sure you hoped that people wouldn't notice).

If in order to be considered a first rate player, or at least a first rate conservative, one must be a psychopathic, prevaricating, cretinous, unapologetic racist and anti-semite then you must be the only first rate player on these boards.

fag.

Jun 25th, 2003 08:03 PM

Isaac

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinTheHerbivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinth

It's funny to see a liberal talking about what a real conservative is.

Why not? Do you not proclaim nearly every day to know what's wrong with these Liberals you so detest? Republican pundits from spin groups like the AEI do it all of the time. Ann Coulter sells books about it.

Also, one doesn't need to hold an appeal to any philosophy or ideology in order to know it and understand it. I studied it in college, it doesn't mean I need to be it. Can you follow, or do we need to pull out the "Common Sense for Dummies" volume???

on his site he wrote a factualy flawed article about communism and carried on a factualy flawed agumant against both anachy/anarchism and communism, all of which he claimed to know what anarchy/anarchsim and communism is...yet he claims not to be a anarchist or a communist, yet alone both, which he would have to be by his logic....

[edit: orgianly wrote ...wrote a factual article about anarchy/anarchism... and this is not correct so I'm making it correct]

Jun 25th, 2003 04:42 PM

The_Rorschach

Vince, by the Supreme Law of the Land, the US Constitution, all US citizens are granted the freedom to express their opinions. As Italian was acting well within his rights, who the hell are you to question his liberty to do so?

In any case, true conservatives are generally liberal, although the definition of that word has changed hands a few times over history. They want power to lie with the people, and for wealth to be attainable for all willing to work for it. They want independance and individuality to be fostered, but with a sense of responsibility. Truman described the Conservative Cause as maintaining the Status Quo. . .Sadly, as much as I admire the man, he was given to seeing Democrats as inherently right, and Republicans as being instrinsically flawed. Personally, I see Conservatism as holding with the ideals of Hamilton, Madison and Jay, and in their tradition, being willing to rise to any challenge to defend their beliefs: Be it with words or war.

Jun 25th, 2003 12:24 PM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype

what do you want me to say Kevin? I think the fact that I am willing to engage in rational debates and discussions on these boards speaks for which brand of consevatism I favor. the only conservative like that here would be Vince, I'm sure he would even call Rush a pink, godless, commie, child molester if he "stepped out of line."

Well, no offense Eye Tie, but I don't think being fair, intelligent, and reasonable has anything to necessarily do with your conservatism, it just makes you all of the aforementioned things.

I think the real premise of this commentary is does this administration, full of Neo-conservative ideologues, represent true conservatism? It mentions Safire and Will, and there are others. From personal experience, just on my former college campus, there was a split between two factions: The College Republicans, and those who considered themselves to be true conservatives, not just Party yes-men. It was a result of several things, one of them being the war.

So, the real question isn't are conservatives nice people, but I guess, are modern Republicans (mainly the hierarchy) reflective of true conservatism? I realize that both of the 2 main parties claim to be "big tent" parties, so what do you think? Do you feel that perhaps like the Democratic Party, maybe the Republican Party is having identity issues at the top? And if so, why does it seem like most Republicans have no difficulty in coalescing with the leadership's agenda?

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

IS, no one asked for your third rate opinion. So, please, dont give it.

Now this is a lark. I would say that Eye Tie is a rare breed of conservative, but then I'd be lying. I know many intelligent people, much like Eye Tie, who have a firm grasp on history, politics, and philosophy that enables them to eloquently defend and champion their conservatism. Eye Tie falls in there, as does Rorschach. You, well, you just don't.

Quote:

It's funny to see a liberal talking about what a real conservative is.

Quote:

I have my faults with the Bush administration,

Sure ya do, "yes man."

Quote:

and I love a good debate.

I know. You're very good at running around in self-congratulatory circles with yourself.

Quote:

But this writer is just mad becuase "confusing" a liberal only involves telling them the truth

I think most modern "Liberals" realize that they're not the kind of liberals in the Wealth of Nations sense. I've never known one to claim otherwise. This is a much more honest approach than the faux conservatism you espouse, clambake.

Jun 25th, 2003 11:23 AM

GAsux

Yeah

My absolute favorite Vince-ism is when he accusses people of dodging the issue when they respond to things he posted. You know, implying that they are incapable of refuting his obviously factual opinion, so they have to resort to slander.

And then he so eloquently turns around and does the exact same thing in someone else's thread.

Way to shoot down the argument with a well thought out response there big guy. It's a good thing you love to debate. You sure proved it here.

Jun 25th, 2003 10:50 AM

mburbank

He means he loves to beg for a good debate, brag like a pro wrestler about how it will go and then play x-box, sleep and post the wrong links. It's pretty much the same thing. If your an idiot.

"IS, no one asked for your third rate opinion. So, please, dont give it. "

This board, by it's existance, asks for all opinions, even the ill-informed watery shit spilling fromm your cake hole.

"Oh! Why don't you go be a Jewith Jew doing thome Jew things and getting money for doing them becauth of your Jewityh live of covetethneth, Jew!"
-Vinth Clambake.

Jun 25th, 2003 09:01 AM

Jeanette X

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

...I love a good debate.

Jun 25th, 2003 08:45 AM

VinceZeb

IS, no one asked for your third rate opinion. So, please, dont give it.

It's funny to see a liberal talking about what a real conservative is. I have my faults with the Bush administration, and I love a good debate. But this writer is just mad becuase "confusing" a liberal only involves telling them the truth.

Jun 25th, 2003 04:34 AM

ItalianStereotype

Jun 25th, 2003 03:57 AM

KevinTheOmnivore

True Conservatives Should Take A Stand

This should be fun.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0624-03.htm

Published on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 by the Miami Herald

True Conservatives Should Take A Stand
by Robert Steinback

Conservatism in America, as I once understood it, is dead.

Or it may only be missing in action, but it is almost nowhere in evidence lately. Conservatism was last seen being abducted by the Bushervatives.

These folks view politics not as a contest between competing ideologies but as a mission to defeat the nefarious ''other side,'' however defined. They have no consistent ideology, as near as I can tell, except to be against anyone who isn't with them.

Such people alarm me, for those who consider winning more important than ideological clarity can't be trusted to use power wisely and in the national interest.

I miss authentic conservatives, not because I've ever been accused of being one, but because I love to debate them. Debates are tests of crisply presented ideas, facts and logic. Authentic conservatives love putting their ideas on the line in lively discussions with those of my ilk.

Bushervatives don't do debates. They are the spawn of the Newt Gingrich/Rush Limbaugh win-first school of politicking, which asks, Why enlighten people when you can confuse them?

Why talk with ideological opponents when you can insult them? Why engage them individually when you can debase them collectively? Why talk about your candidate when you can invoke the ghost of Bill Clinton?

George W. Bush calls himself a conservative. He cuts taxes, mentions God a lot and wears cowboy boots to international summits -- but he doesn't sound much like the conservatives I've known and debated.

Based on Bush's performance, conservatives could be cast as the people who unbalance balanced budgets with massive tax cuts, who mangle and misstate the truth to goad the nation into supporting an invasion, who applaud an all-powerful central government that can spy on and detain individuals while answering to no one, who favor big business over small entrepreneurs and who shirk international cooperation yet complain when other nations don't roll over for us.

They could be cast as people who play games with words. Millions of antiwar demonstrators are ''focus groups.'' Poor Haitian refugees are terrorist threats. The war we started is declared over even as American military personnel keep dying. A Federal Communications Commission ruling enabling huge media conglomerates to scarf up more newspapers and broadcast channels is called a boost to competition.

They could be regarded as people who thrive on confusion, as evidenced by the recent poll showing that a third of the American public believes U.S. forces actually found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Or as those who thrive on fear, moving our ''terrorism threat index'' up or down for reasons no civilian can evaluate.

This isn't true conservative ideology; this is Bushervative mishandling of government.

I'm well acquainted with why liberals and moderates are highly distressed by governance of this sort. But I don't understand why true conservatives are silent.

True conservatives, for example, support lower taxes and smaller government. But I never thought they'd countenance tax cuts so extreme that, when piled atop a weak economy, turn a projected $5.7 trillion budget surplus into a now-projected $4 trillion deficit. That's not conservative. That's irresponsible.

I never figured true conservatives would tolerate parlor tricks like Congress purportedly trimming the president's requested $726 billion tax cut to $350 billion by attaching an expiration date -- yeah, sure -- to the cuts.

If tax cuts were in order, the true conservatives I've known would rather maximize the number of Americans who would benefit rather than giving the lion's share to the already-rich. An across-the-board benefit -- in flat dollars, not percentages -- would deliver significant tax relief to far more modest-income people, who would more likely spend it and boost the economy.

And so on. My guess is that ideological conservatives have been flimflammed into believing that even Bushervative hypocrisy is better than the dreaded ''other side.'' Though lately, a few are showing signs of stirring from their stupor.

Columnist William Safire blasted the Bush administration stance on the FCC changes. Fellow righty George Will has mustered enough nerve to gingerly hint the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq could represent a credibility problem for the president. More than a few conservatives opposed Bush's cynical stance against the University of Michigan's diversity admissions policies.

Still, Bush is poised to do more damage to the concept of pure conservatism than anyone since the nation's leading conservatives locked arms against the Civil Rights movement a half century ago.

And that would take all the challenge out of debating conservatives. It would be too easy.

Copyright 2003 Knight Ridder

###

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