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| May 2nd, 2003 09:49 AM | ||
| mburbank |
While I applaud this Manhattan DA's mathematical acumen, an 'invesitigator' who so obviously hasd an agenda ought to at least keep his yap closed until he has facts to report. I have no idea where this figure of 29 missing artifacts comes from, but I also have no doubt at all it is something he doesn't understand. If there were 29 artifacts missing from museum that size it would be difficult for anyone beyond currators to even notice. This is Rumsfeld with his "One Vase shown over and over" theory. The case may have been overstated, but 29 artifacts is a completely ridiculous figure. |
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| May 2nd, 2003 12:27 AM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/in...=all&position= BAGHDAD, Iraq, April 30 — Even though many irreplaceable antiquities were looted from the National Museum of Iraq during the chaotic fall of Baghdad last month, museum officials and American investigators now say the losses seem to be less severe than originally thought. Col. Matthew F. Bogdanos, a Marine reservist who is investigating the looting and is stationed at the museum, said museum officials had given him a list of 29 artifacts that were definitely missing. But since then, 4 items — ivory objects from the eighth century B.C. — had been traced. "Twenty-five pieces is not the same as 170,000," said Colonel Bogdanos, who in civilian life is an assistant Manhattan district attorney. |
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| Apr 22nd, 2003 11:00 AM | ||
| mburbank |
Why does Rumsfeld hve to be so petty, meanspirited and contemptous about this? I saw him at a press conference equate the looting with one video of a 'vase' being stolen shown 20 times. Who does this serve? Why does he feel the need to be so snide? One is left wiith the impression that he think nothing merriting seriousness is happening, and I don't just mean the looting, I mean the entire war. |
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| Apr 22nd, 2003 12:04 AM | ||
| theapportioner | My suspicion is that a good amount of it was done by professionals (as opposed to the street thief), and probably some from the inside, yes. | |
| Apr 21st, 2003 10:41 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx | ...and in case anyone missed it...they nabbed like 42 paintings on the blackmarket in Italy. your typical street looter wouldn't know what to do with 50,000 - 200,000 items (good lord!) and they certainly wouldn't know how the hell to get something on to the blackmarket in italy a week after the incident while the rest of iraq is full of turmoil. think about it. also, think about the los angeles riots after rodney king... people went nutty dragging trash bins filled with diapers down the block, just grabbing ANYTHING they could. you couldn't fault them. i think this was an inside job though. | |
| Apr 21st, 2003 09:32 PM | ||
| punkgrrrlie10 |
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._antiquities_2 WASHINGTON - Art collectors and dealers say they already are getting queries about artifacts looted from Iraq (news - web sites)'s museums, and the FBI (news - web sites) said Monday that at least one suspected piece has been seized at an American airport. Thousands of items, some dating back many thousands of years, were taken when U.S. forces overthrew Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime. The FBI has begun working with U.S. and international law enforcement agencies, as well as art collectors, auctioneers and experts, to try to recover them. Lynne Chaffinch, manager of the FBI Art Theft Program, told a small group of reporters that she expects the thieves will attempt to sell most of the stolen pieces in wealthy countries such as the United States, Britain, Germany, Japan, France and Switzerland. People in the United States already buy about 60 percent of the world's art, both legal and illegal. "We've had some interesting motives, but mostly it's money," she said of the reasons behind art theft. Chaffinch said Customs agents at an unspecified U.S. airport seized at least one item believed stolen from a Baghdad museum. Customs officials declined comment, citing an ongoing investigation. But they did say that Customs agents at ports of entry nationwide are on the lookout for Assyrian, Sumerian, Mesopotamian and other treasures believed stolen. Thieves usually attempt to sell stolen art and artifacts on the legal market. The FBI frequently hears about a suspect piece from a dealer or expert, then dispatches an undercover agent to contact the seller. Some of these agents have art history training so they can move undetected in a highly specialized world. "You've got to be able to talk the talk," Chaffinch said. The FBI will work closely with art collectors, auction houses, museum curators and even online sellers such as eBay to track down any Iraqi pieces offered for sale in the United States. Key to that will be getting documentation about the stolen pieces from Iraq so that law enforcement officials here and abroad can authenticate those that are recovered. This case is far different from many art thefts, which can involve famous works by artists such as Picasso or Van Gogh rather than ancient pieces of pottery or writing tablets that only experts recognize. "Somebody steals a Picasso or a Rembrandt, it's going to be hard to sell," Chaffinch said. The FBI soon will send a team of agents, probably along with Chaffinch, to Baghdad to collect that information. That will be posted for police on the FBI's National Stolen Art File, which along with private and international databases list descriptions of some 100,000 pieces of stolen art. The University of Chicago's Oriental Institute has also begun posting on its Internet site descriptions of some important artifacts believed stolen. Experts at the university say between 50,000 and 200,000 items were stolen from Baghdad museums after the city fell to U.S. forces. A U.S. government task force that includes the FBI and Justice Department (news - web sites), State Department, Customs, CIA (news - web sites) and Interpol is figuring out how to tackle the Iraqi looting case. Some thought is being given to using an amnesty or reward program to get thieves to return items, though officials stressed no final decisions have been made. In addition, Interpol plans a conference May 5-6 in Lyons, France, to organize and coordinate international efforts to both recover the stolen pieces and arrest the perpetrators. Some Interpol investigators are already in Kuwait, awaiting U.S. military permission to travel to Baghdad. The sheer scale of the thefts has sparked unprecedented publicity that is already helping law enforcement officials investigate the case, Chaffinch said. The fact that the items date to civilization's earliest times has led to worldwide interest in the case, she added. "That's the cradle of civilization," she said. "It isn't just Iraqi cultural heritage — it's the world's cultural heritage." |
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| Apr 16th, 2003 05:10 AM | ||
| FS | Vince, take two steps back, cause you're once again missing the point entirely. This topic is about ruined cultural treasures. You don't prove you're right by saying there's worse things to worry about. That'd be like me going into your little tax rant thread and scalding you for worrying about money while there's people dying somewhere else in the world. Dipshit. | |
| Apr 16th, 2003 02:24 AM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
Hey Max.... what the hell are you talking about? You might like to view yourself as a great cultural humanitarian with a huge respect for preservation of artifacts and history... but get a grip and open your eyes to reality. I don't know much in detail of the collection, but I get the feeling you're going by the reputation of some Egyptian coworkers who impressed you. Can you actually point me in the direction of some websites that might describe the catalogue as it was intact? One that was representative of history without alterations and editing according to it's benefactors whims....oh and this wasn't just any benefactor...he was a cruel and heartless one who attempted to eradicate entire races and cultures. So if that seems tunnel vision and irrelevant to you then I truly feel sorry for your respect of curatorial integrity anyway. Surely an old rock of great importance is still an old important rock just the same... even if some other rocks were destroyed... but don't get carried away.... Saddam tampered with every inch of Iraqi history he could. Again, if you can find a website with more detailed information it might be helpfull for the both of us. Another thing... these articles forget to mention that some of the looted items were taken from the vaults. Meaning this was an inside job. A lot of the material will in fact end up in the blackmarket...or in Syria...or France...because these items weren't bumrushed by hooligans, they were carefuly stolen by people who knew the stock. |
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| Apr 15th, 2003 10:38 PM | ||
| VinceZeb |
OOOOHHHHHHHHh, I'm sorry Max! I'm sorry that I could give a fuck less about some old ass pottery and maps and such when put up against the freedom of a people that have been ruled by fear and war for 24 FUCKING YEARS!!! It sucks priceless artifacts were destroyed. It really does. But look at it from their p.o.v.: Would you, as an Iraqi citizen, finally free from an asshole murderous dictator, look at that museum and say "Well, I shouldn't touch that" or "This is something that Saddam holds as being of importance, so its time to tear it up." I am going with choice number 2, sir. Max, you need to grow the fuck up. Quit thinking like some elitst, scholarly lib and join the mass majority in the real world. Your attitude suggests that you need to have your ass beat up and down a few city blocks once in your life. |
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| Apr 15th, 2003 05:18 PM | ||
| mburbank |
I hardly know which bit of who's willful ignorance and myopia to start with. Abcddx: Everything you think here is based on pure, personal supposition. I am also amazed at your personal tunnel vision. That collection was a repository of the worlds culture. Mathematics and language were invented between the Tigris and Euphrates. It is the single most important archeological site on earth. Your uninformed conjecture about one small aspect of this treasure trove is obsessive. Your siting other regional minorities is also irrelevant. Not that I don't think those are worthy areas of archeological and cultural study, not that I think they are not significant in the regions history, but The main articles of significance in the collection date back to the city of Ur. The Babalonyian Captivity is last week comepared to some of that stuff. It isn't just hyperbole or Arab nationalism to call the area around Bahgdad the "Cradle of Civilization" it's a close to true as the current world archelogical record gets. Shach; Swell, they 'plan', they 'hope'. They'll get back a good deal of it I imagine, and that's great. But a lot of it is gone for good or will only resurface in private collections. As I've mentioned, the archeological records and small artifacts are almost certainly unrecoverable. And the Library? Good luck. Now on to the seniormost shaved ape here. Vincent. Do you revel in your stupidity, or just not recognize it? "I give the people the benefit of the doubt of seeing these treasures as part of Saddam trying to show his great cultural history, considering the asshole thought he was an Old Testament type ruler. So I don't blame them for going apeshit. " 1.) I doubt sincerely that any Arabs at all, Iraqis or otherwise, saw this museum as emblematic of Saddam. This is the record of civilzation, theirs most particularly, but everyone's in general. The artifactas predate Judaism, Pre-date the Egyptian Empire, Pre-date every other civilization. Do you think the Italians identified the remains of Pompeii with Muselini? Because that would have been lot less of a stretch in years and significance. And Saddam identified himself with Saladin, not an old testament anything. I'm sure their pleased you don't blame them for going apeshit, though. "Do I personally care? Not really." That's because you're a cretin, Vince. And I'm being kind. |
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| Apr 15th, 2003 04:29 PM | ||
| theapportioner |
http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=2684 This is infuriating and absolutely negligent. |
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| Apr 15th, 2003 03:23 PM | ||
| AChimp | I thought that the U.S. didn't need the UN for anything, so why are they asking for its assistance in this matter? | |
| Apr 15th, 2003 03:07 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx | This will all be old news by the time most of you read this, but the US is also offering a reward for the return of such artifacts... just the same way they're offering rewards for the capture of war criminals, and tips on finding chemicals. | |
| Apr 15th, 2003 03:03 PM | ||
| The_Rorschach |
Not to burst your little bubble of cynicism CLA, but uh. . . http://www.thehawaiichannel.com/news...11/detail.html U.S. Tries To Help Get Stolen Iraqi Artifacts Back POSTED: 8:33 a.m. EDT April 15, 2003 CENTRAL COMMAND HEADQUARTERS, Qatar -- U.S. Central Command says allied forces didn't expect Iraqi treasures to be looted by the Iraqi people. But spokesman Vincent Brooks said the coalition is now focusing on getting those treasures back. At the daily war briefing, Brooks said the power vacuum that was created when Saddam Hussein's regime fell led to the looting of artifacts from Iraqi museums and other sites. He said the vacuum is being filled. Brooks said officials are hoping people who have information about any stolen goods will provide it. And they hope the items haven't left Iraq or turned up on the black market. Brooks said the looted Iraqi artifacts aren't just important to the Iraqi people -- but to the whole world. He said the coalition is considering a reward system to help get the items back. Earlier, Secretary of State Colin Powell pledged to help preserve Iraq's history. He, too, said that the United States will play a leading role in helping the Iraqis recover artifacts stolen by looters from Iraqi museums in recent days. Powell also said the effort will involve restoring antiquities that have been damaged. Powell said he's seeking the cooperation of the European Union and the United Nations, along with the international police agency Interpol. A State Department spokesman said the looting of artifacts is a big loss for historical research. |
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| Apr 15th, 2003 10:52 AM | ||
| VinceZeb |
Let's be realistic: Freedom is scary. These people who were under a boot heel of oppression went from the chains of oppression to freedom. When you are oppressed and forced to be meager for so long, the first instinct would be to steal back what is "yours", so to speak. So they go after govt buildings, museums, etc. I give the people the benefit of the doubt of seeing these treasures as part of Saddam trying to show his great cultural history, considering the asshole thought he was an Old Testament type ruler. So I don't blame them for going apeshit. Now, is it bad that those things were destroyed? Yep. Do I personally care? Not really. Do I believe the Iraqis will wise up and not decide to destroy their history? Yes. |
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| Apr 14th, 2003 09:47 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
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| Apr 14th, 2003 07:13 PM | ||
| mburbank |
Not only were they warned, protecting the collection was supposed to be a major priority. And Western scholars have had access to this collection until days before the war began. Just becuase you find it common snese means nothing in terms of the reality. The collection is well known, well documented, well studied, the museum was an active center of study until very recently and none of it's contents had it's 'credability' questioned. "It's doubtful that artifacts representative of Babylonian Jewry were preserved while the community itself was cleansed" Whie I lament the demise of Iraqi Jewry, that statement is like saying the Smithsonians collection of Native American artifacts are somehow in doubt. I stress again, this museum was an active site for scholarship and research. Whatever his reasons may hve been, Hussein left it alone. |
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| Apr 14th, 2003 05:44 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
Uh, no I'm not downplaying the collections importance no matter what it was. it's likely your Egyptian coworkers had the type of exposure to these babylonian artifacts denied most Western curators... but it's common sense.... look at Iraq and look at Iraq's cultural climate, and it's doubtful that the credibility of this collection was preserved. For example, It's doubtful that artifacts representative of Babylonian Jewry were preserved while the community itself was cleansed.... and it's doubtful that the same man who tore down ancient palaces would see the merit in historical archeaology. On a side note - Fox News (I'm watching a lot of it today for some reason) is reporting this story in length with the Director of the NY Met commenting. Apparently the Pentagon were aware of these museums and their importance and warned of this. |
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| Apr 14th, 2003 01:21 PM | ||
| Protoclown | It's horribly fucking depressing. The value of these items that were either stolen or destroyed is immeasurable and the vast majority of them are probably gone forever. | |
| Apr 14th, 2003 08:56 AM | ||
| mburbank |
Abbcdzzx: You'r a huge one to bicth and moan about people not respecting your knowledge base. Now it's my turn. Your statement about the relative merits of the Bahgdad Museum collection, it's comparison to the Cairo museum, the idea that it had already been plundered or sold, the idea that it can be restored are all highly missinformed and ignorant. I'm a Museum professional and have spent the last hlf year wworking with currators from the Cairo Museum on the largest touring collection of artifcats from Egypt ever, "The Quest for Immortality". The subject of the Bahgdad collection came up quite frequently. Moreover, whatever else one finds wrong with Sadham Hussein (and there's plent) not making this collection open and available to scholars just isn't true. The Museum has been an active center of scholarship and was up until few days before the bombing began, open to both Eastern and Western scholars. Your statement that the collection probably not that important is completely without merit and could easily have been checked. The importance of this collection is inestemable and even the Egyptian currators I worked with acknowedlged it's historical significance as more important than their own. Among other things it included artifacts from the worlds first city and examples of the worlds first writting. While the larger artifacts may well be recovered, the museum storehouses were also looted, seperating shards, fragments and other tiny artifcats from the notes on where they were dicovered, what strata they were in, what they were found along wth, etc. The Museum was protected until we overthrew the regime. They could have and should have taken precautions to remove and protct it. Their own people looted it. But we did nothing to prevent it. I think theirs plenty of blame to spread around for the loss of the single most important arhceological collection in existance. |
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| Apr 14th, 2003 12:04 AM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
Aport - "It's no stretch to say that the majority of people in the United States just don't give much of a damn about the looting of this museum (or the crises in the hospitals, the ethnic and religious clashes... I digress). Rather, it's seen as "too bad", and people shrug their shoulders. A disingenuous empathy of tragedy. " Are you blind to Americas own apathy towards these same issues when domestic? Are you that out of touch to think "the majority of people in the United States" care about the fiscal status of the Smithsonian...or any status? I'm not even sure they care about Archie Bunkers chair let alone the "crises in hostpitals" or "ethnic and religious clashes". Sometimes poor reporting is just that.... sometimes it's not a national disregard for the worlds historical goods. It's like you put on your special dissent outfit on and you reallllllly wanna wear it to the parade. Another thing.... museum quality items are stolen every fucking day. I have been in several homes filled with items stolen from various archealogical sites, or museum back doors. Now If I was head of a museum of seriously great importance, and there was looting going on, I would personally risk my life to gaurd these items myself... and I think a lot of others reading this would too. Sadly, our military didn't think of it. |
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| Apr 13th, 2003 10:44 PM | ||
| AChimp |
Abcdxxxx, you are ruining my jive. 
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| Apr 13th, 2003 10:41 PM | ||
| theapportioner |
I thought my point was obvious enough. I don't know what you're reading bucko. It's no stretch to say that the majority of people in the United States just don't give much of a damn about the looting of this museum (or the crises in the hospitals, the ethnic and religious clashes... I digress). Rather, it's seen as "too bad", and people shrug their shoulders. A disingenuous empathy of tragedy. With any big art heist (take the Gardner museum heist for example) you learn precisely what was stolen -- perhaps it's simply too early, and there is certainly a glut of news these days, but I doubt the American mainstream media will provide us with a catalog of the pilfered and destroyed items in this museum, even though the loss is orders of magnitude greater. I don't foresee Fox News doing a 2 hour special on "A Cultural Heritage Lost" anytime. Clearly too, the military leadership and government administration don't see it as a big deal, in their own words and actions. |
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| Apr 13th, 2003 10:12 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
Aport - that comment was just dumb. Anyone reading that story is outraged, and if you're suggesting we didn't protect the museum because ancient artifacts aren't as popular as pop culture iconography ...then yeah that was just dumb. Chimp - The Nazis destroyed TONS of artifacts and art that didn't fit their mindset, what are you talking about? Even after reading your clarification i'm still wondering..what are you talking about? Jeanette - Saddam ran a secular government, it doesn't mean that his people were secular Arab nationalists. Saddam isn't an atheist btw. Chances are anything that didn't compliment the Islamic fundamentalists had already been destroyed or sold a long time ago. I doubt we're talking about a collection in the league of the Egyptians. I have a feeling a lot of it will be returned, or wasn't all that special to begin with. Iraq today shows little respect for history or it's past... everything was detroyed and rebuilt... so let's not romanticize their respect for things like museums. Take a look at early photographs of how Iraq once looked and you'll cry. Still, they should have protected the museum out of respect alone. |
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| Apr 13th, 2003 09:43 PM | ||
| Jeanette X |
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