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Apr 3rd, 2004 11:21 AM

ziggytrix

God bless America, and no place else!

Apr 3rd, 2004 11:03 AM

aeQea

Apr 3rd, 2004 08:17 AM

Cosmo Electrolux

I'm glad you brought it back. it was easily the most intelligent debate I've ever read on these forums..

Apr 3rd, 2004 06:20 AM

Rev. Danno

Hehe, just wanred to bring this tread back, it's one of my babies you know... Choijin, I' not Bi, it was a joke...(

)
Anyway, ignore this tread, I'll just bring it back in a few months...

Jun 19th, 2003 04:07 PM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Ranxer - The picture of the Hasid is exploitive. Read up on the particular sect he belongs to (because they're not all the same) and I will assure you that your own beliefs are far from theirs. They're seperatists, and their brand of Judaism teeters on being a dooms day cult.

That's an interesting take on the Satmar!! I don't think they're that bad, I live near many. Not a very well liked bunch.

I however agree that using them in these demonstrations is a tad bit exploitative. I first saw one at a "free Palestine" rally in DC, and it make my stomach turn a bit to see them cheering along with the "long live the intifada!" crowd.

Jun 19th, 2003 03:59 AM

Abcdxxxx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeanette X

Quote:

Originally Posted by mburbank

It's only our ancestral homeland if you're a biblical literalist. There were folks living there when we moved in. .

Max is right. The Bible and archeology agree that there were people living there before the Israelites.

"The people living there" aren't really still around to lay claim to the land. There were Cannaanite Zionists amongst the crowd if it makes you feel any better.

The Bible is a usefull document to debunk the idea that all the Jews came from Europe, and just popped up there in the last century.

Ranxer - The picture of the Hasid is exploitive. Read up on the particular sect he belongs to (because they're not all the same) and I will assure you that your own beliefs are far from theirs. They're seperatists, and their brand of Judaism teeters on being a dooms day cult.

As for the 562 or whatever the number is that refuse to serve in the IDF -- the number who are requesting to serve far exceeds that. It doesn't mean much.

Jun 18th, 2003 05:19 AM

aeQea

Re: F*** Paslistine

Jun 17th, 2003 09:33 PM

Anonymous

Danno's bi?

That brings our average up to what?

Jun 17th, 2003 08:15 PM

Jeanette X

Quote:

Originally Posted by mburbank

It's only our ancestral homeland if you're a biblical literalist. There were folks living there when we moved in. .

Max is right. The Bible and archeology agree that there were people living there before the Israelites.

Jun 17th, 2003 06:18 PM

ranxer

Jun 17th, 2003 05:54 PM

Can't we just put all those nasty bothersome Palestininnians in a big oven or something and cook em?

Jun 17th, 2003 05:39 PM

Zosimus

Re: F*** Paslistine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev. Danno

I keep seeing these damn kids from the Green Party with stickers that say FREE PALISTINE...
Pisses me off...

yeah, they piss me off too, it is spelled "PALESTINE" DAMN KIDS!!!

Jun 17th, 2003 05:35 PM

KevinTheOmnivore

shat ap.

Jun 17th, 2003 05:32 PM

Rev. Danno

I just had to brink this tread back for a little bit...
Fuck Palistine, & fuck you...
there, I don't think anyone will respond...
Oh Raven, Preech can suck my Jewish cock....Nazi Cult!!!

Feb 10th, 2003 10:11 PM

Abcdxxxx

"Why not Uganda, or whatever African country the British offered".. ." It most certainly was nationalistic."

Uganda? Why not unoccupied Southern California? The reason why MOST Poles, Russians, and also Germans immigrated to Israel as part of the fifth aliyah was Anti-Semetism, and political/economic insecurity. Same with Jews from Egypt, North Africa, and other Jews from Muslim countrys. Jews of South America, and South Africa followed shortly for these reasons as well, and it's the same reason why American Jews rarely feel the need to immigrate all the while supporting Israel monetarily. When German Jews, and Oriental Jews (for the Sa'id fans amongst us) went to Israel, they originally rejected intergration and formed small communities with seperate language newspapers, and other cultural traits. It wasn't nationalistic, nor was in unity with the Zionist movements.

"Many Palestinians hold Jordanian residence because they were FORCED over the border, either by scare tactics from the Israelis, or lies from the other Arab nations. Either way, despite taking up residence in other Arab countries, they were still displaced and are still deserving of compensation, much like the U.S. has compensated native Americans who are STILL American citizens."

The US does not border on Africa, nor has Israel ever bought or sold ownership of Arabs, so it's a very poor comparison.

Jordanian citizenship is voluntary. Nobody FORCES them to take it, and some refuse it because it belittles their cause. Israel HAS actually compensated some Arab Palestinians with compensation. Unfortunately most have little documentation to prove their claims and many signed over deeds in exchange for money. Will Jews exiled from Arabic nations ever see compensation for the billions stolen from them?? Will you rally behind that? Or does your mentality prohibit that?

Feb 9th, 2003 10:42 PM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

The largest immigration movements to Israel were as a result of persecution, NOT nationalism.

Why Israel then? Why all of the immigration in the 19th Century??? Why not Uganda, or whatever African country the British offered (and you can't honestly say they chose a desert surrounded by hostile enemies out of pragmatic reasons). It most certainly was nationalistic.

Quote:

American Jews might vote in two Countrys but they're not collecting fraudelent aid from the UN or the EU to do it, and they're not claiming they're without a homeland are they?

Many Palestinians hold Jordanian residence because they were FORCED over the border, either by scare tactics from the Israelis, or lies from the other Arab nations. Either way, despite taking up residence in other Arab countries, they were still displaced and are still deserving of compensation, much like the U.S. has compensated native Americans who are STILL American citizens.[/quote]

Feb 5th, 2003 03:37 PM

Abcdxxxx

"Since when has this had anything to do with nationalism??? Did the Jews have a "recognized democratic country" BEFORE 1948, while the immigrations occured in mass....?"

The largest immigration movements to Israel were as a result of persecution, NOT nationalism.

"I equate the two because you said they hold Jordanian citizenship, despite identifying as Palestinians. There are American Jews who fly to Israel and vote in elections, and then come back here to enjoy the benefits of OUR system. Do you follow, or should I break it down further...? "

Do YOU follow? The question isn't duel allegiance. (American Jews are not alone in this priviledge). No matter how you break it down, a lot of Palestinians claiming displaced status do in fact hold citizenship to a country. Their satisfaction with this situation doesn't negate that. American Jews might vote in two Countrys but they're not collecting fraudelent aid from the UN or the EU to do it, and they're not claiming they're without a homeland are they? A lot of money goes towards helping legit Palestinians in need, but it rarely gets to them. This is one reason why, and it has nothing to do with Jews of any sort. Sorry.

Feb 5th, 2003 02:36 PM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Right, and when Israelis with dual citizenship start collecting money from the UNRA you can equate the two. In the meantime, at least 70% of Palestinians are technically no longer refugees. A sham is a sham.

I equate the two because you said they hold Jordanian citizenship, despite identifying as Palestinians. There are American Jews who fly to Israel and vote in elections, and then come back here to enjoy the benefits of OUR system. Do you follow, or should I break it down further...? :/

Quote:

Interesting, but that's not what happened. Israel sided with their Jordanian allies and aided them. Sharon was merely a military man at the time, no matter what his stance might have been.... he earned his "bulldozer" moniker on the mission.

I wasn't reffering to the state's policy, I was reffering to Sharon's. How's that chip on your shoulder holdin' up...?

Feb 5th, 2003 02:30 PM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Oh, I don't know... maybe the fact that Israel is an existing and recognized Democratic country?

Since when has this had anything to do with nationalism??? Did the Jews have a "recognized democratic country" BEFORE 1948, while the immigrations occured in mass....?

Feb 5th, 2003 12:51 PM

Helm

Rev. Danno: I'm not sure YHVH likes you!

Feb 5th, 2003 11:38 AM

slavemason

The whole mess makes me glad to be agnostic. Lucky for me, I don't get many instructions from God telling me to kill my neighbor. I'm waiting patiently though.

Feb 5th, 2003 02:23 AM

Abcdxxxx

"There are more Israeli "citizens" living abroad than there are actually living in Israel. I guess that means they shouldn't have a state, huh?"

Right, and when Israelis with dual citizenship start collecting money from the UNRA you can equate the two. In the meantime, at least 70% of Palestinians are technically no longer refugees. A sham is a sham.

"Sharon always spoke of Jordan as the Palestinian homeland. If the Palestinians took the country, it'd solve his problems. "

Interesting, but that's not what happened. Israel sided with their Jordanian allies and aided them. Sharon was merely a military man at the time, no matter what his stance might have been.... he earned his "bulldozer" moniker on the mission.

Feb 5th, 2003 01:41 AM

Abcdxxxx

"What's the difference between this, and for example me making aliyah to Israel to be in my "homeland"...? "

Oh, I don't know... maybe the fact that Israel is an existing and recognized Democratic country?

Feb 4th, 2003 10:51 PM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

If we're talking about an identity crisis, let's also mention a few of the Iraqis, Egyptians, Kuwaitis, Syrians, Saudis, and Yemenites amongst others who ALL call themselves Palestinian when the mood strikes.

Certainly, but is this not the nature of nationalism? The Palestinian "identity" became common with the influx of Jews making aliyah to Mandate Palestine. The Israeli people were ironically the creators of what would be their biggest crisis.

Quote:

Some of them even move to Gaza, which accounts for the population double within the past 8 years.

What's the difference between this, and for example me making aliyah to Israel to be in my "homeland"...?

Quote:

To some, Palestinian is code for "Killing Jews".

Well, can't say I've ever heard of this.......

Feb 4th, 2003 10:47 PM

KevinTheOmnivore

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

That explains the "waltzing" in Jordan, so how about the failed coup attempts in Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon?

These ALL rest SOLELY on the shoulders of the palestinians (or the "Jordanians," since you don't believe there is a Palestinian, right?). Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon are yet agaoin three other countries that oppress those who they see as "lower," and are likewise highly undemocratic. Are you justifying such regimes? Are you an apologist?

Quote:

Did Sharon support the coup attempt? I seem to recall Israel being active in stopping it. Israelis loved the Jordanian King the way they loved Sadat...and for the same reason. They were hardline Arab leaders who changed their thinking and attempted to negotiate for peace.

Sharon always spoke of Jordan as the Palestinian homeland. If the Palestinians took the country, it'd solve his problems.

Also, I'm fairly sure that Israel would lke just about ANYBODY who wouldn't want to go to war with them. Of course, why would Jordan need to go to war, they got their little piece of the pie in 48, right?

Quote:

Jordan eventually granted the right of return to Palestinians, and now 70% of them hold citizenship (but I'm sure they're still "refugees" at heart right?)

There are more Israeli "citizens" living abroad than there are actually living in Israel. I guess that means they shouldn't have a state, huh? :/

Quote:

Also - it's a little known truth that Arafat turned down an Oslo style land for peace deal with Jordan that would have ended the conflict.

No doubt, Arafat is a bastard, and the PA are in a position where they should take what they can get for the Palestinian people. Incidently, on what grounds did he reject the offer....?

Quote:

One more point ... the coup attempt wasn't a revolutionary uprising by the oppressed and undertrodden, it was in "their name".

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