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Sep 14th, 2006 08:03 PM
Grislygus He's pretty damned thorough.
Sep 14th, 2006 06:35 PM
kahljorn the guy who tranlated that is a pretty popular tranlator for egyptian stuff i think
Sep 14th, 2006 04:47 PM
Grislygus Wait, I see... they've included Greek commentary. Allright, I get it now, I'm a little slow, but I've got it.
Sep 14th, 2006 04:38 PM
kahljorn sacred-texts? No. The website has multicultural stuff, and most of the books and translations were done by people who aren't affiliated with them at all and are probably dead by now. Maybe I'm not sure what you meant, though.
Sep 14th, 2006 04:23 PM
Grislygus I saw that... Is it just me, or does the site seem to have a slight Christian revisionist flavor to it? Still damn fascinating. I was also looking at this somewhat gaudy site.
Sep 14th, 2006 01:34 PM
kahljorn http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ebod/index.htm

there's the egyptian book of the dead if you want to read it, grislygus, but it's probably not what you'd expect.
Sep 13th, 2006 07:41 PM
ziggytrix If there is an afterlife, I hope I get to tell God "seriously, what the fuck?"

I bet God would have a really good answer though.

Either that or He'd do the ethereal quivalent of pulling a quarter out from behind my ear and falling down laughing.

That'd be an acceptable answer, too.
Sep 13th, 2006 12:08 PM
kahljorn "Tiny mustard seeds contemplating existence as a giant mustard plant is all we can be"

The mustard seed is equivalent to the jewel in the lotus of eastern traditions, the eternal unbreakable soul is what the mustard seed stands for. Right?


"A translated edition of the Egyptian book of the Dead."

You can find copies of the egyptian book of the dead online, you can find copies of almost any book t hat was popular before 1941, and some after.

Personally I don't see any difference between eastern and western cultures, i just think most people have the wrong idea about western religions. For example, why would people think t hey'd goto heaven and meet all of their family and friends there and everyone would be "Happy" and play videogames or do whatever they liked to do on earth. Happiness, family and friends is all a PHYSICAL and material concept. I don't think people understand the difference, usually.
To elucidate the previous emotions are part of a complicated brain process. Human emotions themselves are probably more complex than animal emotions due the bigger brain which gives us higher functionality. We also have bigger memories and a complicated social stratus. However all of these exist within the human body, or are produced or influenced by. All of these things should parish with you when you die.
You lose your ego, and if your soul is "Eternal" your ego wouldn't really matter in light of the eternal. In light of ego disolution I could see heaven and hell's existing, but they would be transient states. I think that is partly the buddhist idea.

Basically I think there's some reasonable things about the afterlife we could conclude just by seperating the difference between what being alive is and what being dead is.
Sep 13th, 2006 11:21 AM
Grislygus
Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
Have you guys read any of the book sof the dead out there?
I have, actually. A translated edition of the Egyptian book of the Dead.

Unfortunately, I got it from a museum bookstore when I was a kid, solely because I was expecting something along the lines of the Necronomicon. The text went right over my head and I got rid of it.

Now, I could kick myself because what little I remember sounds fascinating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
Hell as oblivion? That's interesting considering every eastern system is the opposite. The true heaven of buddhism, taoism and hinduism etc. is merging with oblivion or bliss, ultimate reality, chaos, the ocean before existence(greek mythology and many others), merging with infinity, merging with the cosmos, merging with God (the supreme or primordial in polytheistic systems) etc.
I think that kind of ties into what you were saying by a timeless reward. Also I feel it encompasses what God meant when he said, "I am that I am".

Do you estimate your memories and physical representation come with you? Anything you associate as your "Self"?
Well, it's always struck me that Eastern philosophy seems to emphasize unity with the universe, whereas Western philosophy emphasizes an isolated existence above it. The difference seems to be more or less consistent, and I personally see it as firstmost as a cultural difference, secondly a religious one. Not that I actually know any specific examples, or am able to back up my argument. This one's pure opinion.

I personally don't know what I believe Hell to be, but the religious individuals that I know who can actually have a logical discussion seem to believe that eternal punishment is unlikely.

As for Heaven, my belief is pretty much an extensively simplified version of Sethomas' statement. I believe that one will ascend to God's domain with all petty, human ego-filters discarded. As someone without a lot of experience with religion, I am unable to create a detailed picture.
Sep 13th, 2006 04:16 AM
Sethomas Well, I don't know. Nobody does. Tiny mustard seeds contemplating existence as a giant mustard plant is all we can be.
Sep 13th, 2006 03:11 AM
kahljorn Well without emotional tendencies and relativity there wouldn't really be any motivations for people to argue cubs and whitesox. Emotions are e-motions after all, they are what motivates your body and self into responding to situations, this is especially true with sports.

What type of consciousness do you think you will have;what is the huge collective body? such as God's body? Do you think we return to the "I am that I am" status?
Sep 13th, 2006 02:52 AM
Sethomas Memories possibly, but I think that somatic things like relative intelligence and emotional tendencies/predilections will be gone. What I take from Revelations in describing all the Faithful as being garbed alike in white is that human triteness will be conquered and we'll all essentially experience as being ourselves just a huge collective being. I know that sounds rather new-age-y, and I don't mean it in the sense that we all share one consciousness, but that everyone will experience heaven in the same manner. As I once said, I can't imagine there being Cubs versus White Sox arguments in heaven.
Sep 13th, 2006 02:47 AM
kahljorn Hell as oblivion? That's interesting considering every eastern system is the opposite. The true heaven of buddhism, taoism and hinduism etc. is merging with oblivion or bliss, ultimate reality, chaos, the ocean before existence(greek mythology and many others), merging with infinity, merging with the cosmos, merging with God (the supreme or primordial in polytheistic systems) etc.
I think that kind of ties into what you were saying by a timeless reward. Also I feel it encompasses what God meant when he said, "I am that I am".

Do you estimate your memories and physical representation come with you? Anything you associate as your "Self"?
Sep 13th, 2006 02:01 AM
Sethomas In my estimation, I think there are the three orthodox levels of afterlife: damnation, purgation, and paradise. However, I cannot imagine that hell is actually perdition--as I've stated long ago, the idea of never-ending torment is a logical contradiction of terms. Hell therefore becomes manifest as non-existence, oblivion.

Purgation is probably undertaken as a temporal waiting, most likely in a stupored state of "consciousness" for some period. I imagine just black and stunted ruminations.

It's worthless to speculate on what eternal reward there is for life, if any, but I think it has to be timeless in nature. The idea of "enjoying" something in the absence of arbitrary time is beyond the mind's grasp, but that's eschatology for you.

And yes, I ascert that if heaven exists, purgatory exists by almost absolute logical extension. I don't get the Protestant Fathers who decided that you can attain salvation by faith alone with no consequences ever, even if you're a murdering sociopath.
Sep 13th, 2006 01:52 AM
kahljorn Let's discuss the "afterlife". Do you guys even believe in it? I don't know if I do. What kind of afterlife to you subscribe in and why?
I try to understand reincarnation but I've never heard anything that makes any sense. Although obviously all matter and energy is recycled ;/

Have you guys read any of the book sof the dead out there?
Sep 12th, 2006 10:06 PM
Sethomas Preechr, I support causes. Sometimes this involves me supporting progressive or conservative agendas. Like Plato says, the fault of not caring about politics is that you invariably end up ruled by your inferiors.

I supported Bush against Gore for a variety of reasons. I didn't think he could impose as much damage as he has, and I expected him to at least alleviate the problems abounding in our abortion policies. I gave him and his ilk a chance, and once he fucked it up and I was of age to vote I sided with a Democratic douchebag named Kerry. I've discussed a number of present issues going on with the Neoconservative movement with some of its loyal followers, who are or were very good friends of mine. Some of the times they seemed logically sound (albeit impractical or unrealistic), but what impressed me was that they were never the same as the hyped-up public reasons for those policies. I cannot in good conscience support a party founded on flagrant duplicity, even if mild duplicity is the foundation of all politics.

I throw that out because you seem to have me cut out as some kind of foaming-at-the-mouth liberal lemming. As for the backwards flattery, yes I can be prolix, but I don't think I've ever behaved in a deliberately pretentious way without some element of jest to justify it.
Sep 12th, 2006 08:57 PM
Preechr If only your powers could be harnessed for politics.
Sep 12th, 2006 08:54 PM
Sethomas By the way, the Alexandrians used the word "Hades" to describe the underworld when authoring the Septuagint, and that played a big role in linking the pagan death with the Christian one centuries later. Before someone argues that early Christians would have used direct Hebrew, the truth is that they rarely did until Jerome, and even he took the Hebrew texts with a grain of salt. All the Gospels quote the Septuagint.
Sep 12th, 2006 08:49 PM
Sethomas Well, that's in my facebook "quotes" section. Actually, it's "L'enfer--c'est des autres."
Sep 12th, 2006 07:07 PM
executioneer guys did you know that hell is other people
Sep 12th, 2006 06:18 PM
Grislygus Perhaps. I'm not well versed in biblical symbolism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahljorn
The tibetan buddhism thing I mentioned had a cold hell. Scroll up and read.

Sometimes I don't even know why I post on this message board.
I saw it, but I was angling for European lore. Though the thread encompasses Hell in all cultures, I have a tendency to talk about the Western view.

I did some researching into Di Yu, and wow, is it all-encompassing. The ice level is for kids who don't respect their elders.
Sep 12th, 2006 01:24 PM
RaNkeri
Re: Hell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grislygus
I'm curious. I was always under the impression that the Christian bible made little to no mention of Hell's aesthetic, and that early versions of it portrayed Hell as cold, since it was removed from God's warmth and light.
That might just be a symbolic description for hell, meaning that it's somewhat the opposite of the world we know. (For example, there is no hope and people do not care neither love each other) So, hell could be emotionlly cold, but physically hot and fiery place.

But hey, that's just me, and I might be wrong too. Just giving you guys a new point of view
Sep 12th, 2006 01:11 PM
kahljorn The tibetan buddhism thing I mentioned had a cold hell. Scroll up and read.

Sometimes I don't even know why I post on this message board.

Di Yu, the chinese hell, also has a frozen ice hell where they freeze disrespectful people. They also have something like 18 or 20 levels of hell, similar to dante's inferno.
Sep 12th, 2006 01:01 PM
Courage the Cowardly Dog Sheol and other translation of Hell reffering to the grave tend to be "cold" but that is reffering to the grave and not the spiritual hell.

Does it have to be christian/jewish/muslim hell? Cause i bet some of the others hells may be cold.
Sep 12th, 2006 11:37 AM
Grislygus I love cultural anthopology, and history in general, but my knowledge on the subject is always slightly vague.

And with that in mind, I could have sworn there were pre-Dante references to a frozen Hell. Can anybody back that up?
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