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Mar 18th, 2003 10:31 PM
KevinTheOmnivore http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

washingtonpost.com
Vatican: US, Backers Responsible Before God on Iraq



Reuters
Tuesday, March 18, 2003; 7:14 AM



VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican said on Tuesday countries that decide to wage war on Iraq without a global consensus must take responsibility before God and history -- making clear the Pope would not endorse their actions.

"Those who decide that all peaceful means that international law makes available are exhausted assume a grave responsibility before God, their conscience and history," said Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls.

Navarro-Valls' comment was the Vatican's first official reaction to Washington's ultimatum to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to go into exile within 48 hours or face war. Both the British and Spanish prime ministers have backed Washington.

The latest developments will be a setback for Pope John Paul, who has led a vigorous diplomatic campaign against the threatened U.S.-led attack on Iraq, emerging as one of the world's most powerful anti-war voices.

At the weekend he issued a passionate plea for peace and said Iraq's leaders had a duty to cooperate with international community to avert war. He told both sides there was still time to negotiate.

The 82-year-old pontiff has held talks with world leaders who are opposed to war and those who are its staunchest supporters. He has also sent peace envoys to both Washington and Baghdad.

The Vatican has said it will not shut its embassy in Iraq even if war breaks out.


© 2003 Reuters
Mar 6th, 2003 03:27 PM
El Blanco Martyrs are admired. Leaders are followed. I think the world needed more leaders at that point.
Mar 6th, 2003 03:10 PM
mburbank I'm sorry, I was under the impression the Pope took his marching orders from God.
Mar 6th, 2003 02:54 PM
FS Now, I have to wonder. Did the pope ask people to fast on a fasting day to protect his health, or did he forget one of his own religion's holidays?
Mar 6th, 2003 01:05 PM
ItalianStereotype i say that all the fucking time, but everyone else says "a real catholic would have opposed the war, even if it meant having the vatican burned down."
Mar 6th, 2003 12:48 PM
El Blanco Well, you can't blame the Pope during WW2. He happened to be in a city surrounded by Mussolini's troops.
Mar 6th, 2003 10:00 AM
mburbank The list of Popes who have actively endorsed war or stood idly by refusing comment is relly, really long. It's actually fairly unusual for the Pope to come out so vocally against a war.
Mar 5th, 2003 10:00 PM
GAsux
Confessions

I will be the first to admit that I am very uneducated when it comes to matters of religion. That's not to say I'm an atheist perse, I'm not really anything I guess.

But regardless, I was just reading the news about the Pope stating that war in Iraq is unjust. Its presented in such a way that makes it appear as if its some kind of startling revelation. Perhaps its just because I dont fully understand the philosopies of various religions, but is that really such a big deal?

I mean, holy crap. He's the pope! Under what circumstances would the Pope say war IS justified? I dunno, I just thought it was funny the way it's being presented. Oh no, stop everything! The POPE said war is bad!
Mar 5th, 2003 08:43 PM
ItalianStereotype yeah....i forgot all about fasting :/
Mar 5th, 2003 08:41 PM
KevinTheOmnivore
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
You know what is funny? Today is Ash Wednesday. WE ARE SUPPOSED TO FAST!

I can't believe that didn't occur to me until today.
Mar 5th, 2003 06:54 PM
kellychaos
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
And the black market and countries like China and France make sure that any sanctions imposed mean little except an excuse for a dictator to let the media photgraph his starving people.
Same can probably be said of foreign aid as well. In most cases, I believe the government probably somehow siezes or gets a percentage of the aid/monies and you're left with the same people still starving.
Mar 5th, 2003 03:56 PM
Carnivore I'm the most non-practicing Catholic ever. I can't remember the last time I went to mass. I also don't believe in a lot of the Catholic Church's policies. I was raised Catholic, though. I'm baptised, confirmed, and all that other crap. Of course, I only got confirmed for the money. I'm probably going to hell for that. :/
Mar 5th, 2003 03:52 PM
El Blanco You know what is funny? Today is Ash Wednesday. WE ARE SUPPOSED TO FAST!

I can't believe that didn't occur to me until today.
Mar 5th, 2003 02:02 PM
ItalianStereotype are you guys catholic?
Mar 5th, 2003 12:58 PM
Protoclown I'd fast, but I see it as an utterly pointless form of protest. It doesn't do any good if nobody KNOWS you're doing it.

It's like "Bush, we're gonna daydream of PONIES all day long and there's nothing you can do to make us stop until you back off of Iraq! And we might even have SEVERAL scheduled Pony Daydream Days if you don't stop your warmongering ways!"

Marching the streets of Washington with signs and making your voice heard? Now that's cool by me! But I just don't see the point of doing something like this. I'm down with the spirit of it all, I just think this particular form of protest is a fruitless endeavor.

Then there's also the fact that I don't want to take a day off from my workout schedule while I'm still relatively new to this whole exercise thing...going without food all day and then working out = BAD IDEA.
Mar 5th, 2003 11:03 AM
KevinTheOmnivore Fasting is fun.
Mar 4th, 2003 09:25 PM
KevinTheOmnivore
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Blanco
And the black market and countries like China and France make sure that any sanctions imposed mean little except an excuse for a dictator to let the media photgraph his starving people.
Sure, but the only people in Iraq who have access to this "black market" are people like Hussein. His people still suffer.

I think open markets and transparency are the only way to go, despite by Socialistic leanings.
Mar 4th, 2003 09:15 PM
El Blanco In my opinion, sanctions are nothing more than bad PR.

Do people honestly believe that some evil dictator will all of a sudden have a change of heart with the new sudden cash flow?

And the black market and countries like China and France make sure that any sanctions imposed mean little except an excuse for a dictator to let the media photgraph his starving people.
Mar 4th, 2003 08:32 PM
KevinTheOmnivore I am generally against sanctions myself, especially if they aren't hurting the intended target. I don't think the pope was accepting an apartheid regime anymore than he is accepting Saddam Hussein in this instance (although idiots like Ronnie will construe it that way).
Mar 4th, 2003 08:26 PM
El Blanco I don't know how you feel about it, but the Pope also opposed the sanctions against South Africa.
Mar 4th, 2003 08:18 PM
KevinTheOmnivore
Quote:
The pope said the day of fasting on Wednesday would remind people of the long years of suffering endured by Iraqi citizens as a result of the international embargo against the country.
This Pope rocks.

And tell me this isn't a badass pic for an avatar:

Mar 4th, 2003 08:16 PM
KevinTheOmnivore http://sg.news.yahoo.com/030304/1/38j5b.html

Wednesday March 5, 3:03 AM
Pope steps up anti-war crusade with call for Christians to fast

Pope John Paul II stepped up his crusade against a looming war in Iraq, urging the world's Christians to stage a fast for peace on the same day as his envoy is to meet US President George W. Bush.

The pope said the day of fasting on Wednesday would remind people of the long years of suffering endured by Iraqi citizens as a result of the international embargo against the country.

The fast will coincide with a meeting Wednesday between Bush and the pope's special envoy, Cardinal Pio Laghi, who the pope has entrusted with a special plea to restrain the US leader from waging war against Iraq.

The fast is the latest in a series of efforts to avert a war by the pope, who has emerged as one of the most prominent opponents against a US-led conflict with Iraq.

In recent weeks, he has received leaders ranging from Iraq Deputy Prime Minister Tareq Aziz to British Prime Minister Tony Blair, the US' key ally on Iraq, and Tuesday held talks with Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.

The pontiff said the day of fasting Wednesday should "provide greater understanding of the difficulties and sufferings or our brothers confronted by hunger, misery and war."

The appeal has also been passed on by World Council of Churches in Geneva and the Synod of the Church of England.

An informal opinion poll carried out on a private Italian television channel also found that 55.7 percent of viewers said they were willing to follow the appeal to fast.

Laghi's meeting with Bush Wednesday comes amid insistences from Washington that the pope's anti-war pronouncements will not be able to sway the United States from its hardline stance on Iraq.

Jim Nicholson, US envoy to the Holy See, on Tuesday confirmed that the pope's appeal through Laghi would not influence American thinking.

"Cardinal Laghi's mission may be useful, but Iraq must disarm," he said on the private Italian television channel "La 7."

"If Saddam Hussein were to leave his country, that would be a perfect solution," Nicholson added.

Meanwhile, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, a firm supporter of the US stance on Iraq, became the latest of the world's leaders Tuesday to hold talks on the crisis with the pope.

Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said that the meeting "allowed an exchange of views on the current international situation, with special emphasis on the crisis in Iraq."

The pope had already held talks Thursday with Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, another key supporter of the US position on Iraq and holder of a crucial seat on the UN Security Council.

Officials at the Vatican have said the 82 year-old-pope has thrown all his energy into efforts to stop the war, despite the crippling effects of his Parkinson's disease.

"He has been more alert in the last few days, as though he wanted to give us more strength," Laghi said.

The pope has adopted a vocal stance of principled opposition against a military conflict with Iraq, saying the future of humanity can never be ensured by the logic of war.

"Marred by long-standing and seemingly relentless conflicts, the world stands on the brink of yet another war," the pope wrote last month in a pessimistic message to newly-enthroned Anglican leader Rowan Williams.

Separately, the Vatican Tuesday denied that the pope had planned to make a personal address to the United Nations Security Council if his envoy failed to deter Bush from going to war.

"There are no plans for the Holy Father to visit the United Nations," a spokesman told journalists.
-30-
Mar 4th, 2003 06:38 PM
ItalianStereotype all good things must come to an end, for now i must be off to class
Mar 4th, 2003 06:35 PM
mburbank See, now, that's twice in a row you made me laugh.
Mar 4th, 2003 06:34 PM
ItalianStereotype it would be better if he would wear his "america super cool number 1" miter every once in a while :/
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