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Topic Review (Newest First)
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| May 27th, 2003 10:02 AM | ||||
| mburbank |
"it does make make what I say less of a truth." -Vinth. "I'm sorry we all aren't going ..." -Vinth "I'm way out a league about the shift in conversation in a certain thread I have not even partaken in directly besides to state something about a message posted eariler before the thread shift." -Vinth "Are you purposely stupid or is this an act?" -Vinth See what happens when you don't shut your hose, clambake? |
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| May 26th, 2003 04:53 PM | ||||
| VinceZeb |
I'm way out a league about the shift in conversation in a certain thread I have not even partaken in directly besides to state something about a message posted eariler before the thread shift. Are you purposely stupid or is this an act? |
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| May 26th, 2003 02:51 PM | ||||
| The_voice_of_reason | Your way out of your league. | |||
| May 26th, 2003 12:50 PM | ||||
| VinceZeb |
"Shut your hose, clambake." It's 2003, Max. I'm sorry we all aren't going to the hop after school for malts and a burger. Go back to eating strained beets and drinking Geritol. |
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| May 26th, 2003 09:52 AM | ||||
| mburbank | Shut your hose, clambake. The grownup table is having a conversation. | |||
| May 26th, 2003 08:45 AM | ||||
| VinceZeb | Ror, just because you can't understand something or you try to sit there and degrade me; it does make make what I say less of a truth. | |||
| May 25th, 2003 11:15 PM | ||||
| The_Rorschach |
First, allow me to address our intellectually incompetent representatives: "thanks for backing me up." Did I? Let me see. . . You said: The reason that they have lower incomes and therefore more eligable for economic aid is: A.) "they don't have the nessicary education or the means to get that education. (emphasis added) Everyone has the means to get at least a High School diploma. period. Even adults. Furthermore, you took only one half of that statistic and ran with it like, as Burbank said to describe someone of your mental calibre, 'a morbidly obese teenager squeezed intoa bigwheel.' If you had continued to read, you would have noted it also said Immigrants are also slightly more likely than natives to have a graduate or professional degree. Conveniently miss that round boy? Now, Kevin, I'm sorry. You were saying. . . "Was it just their Catholocism that made Americans suspicious of Irish immigrants in the 18th and 19th Centuries, or was it also certain stereotypes that prevailed about them...? Drinking, fighting, irresponsible behavior, etc." Thats only the Irish, and they did not account for anywhere near a majority of all immigrants from that period. Until World War 2, no less than 25% of all immigrants at any time came from Germany. The Irish are really only important because they were so uniformly hated in Europe and America. But you are right, of course, those stereotypes were just as persuasive, though not nearly as often voiced as the objections to their religion. "I agree, they were perceived as a threat to the moral and social order, but there were economic implications as well, because their "wild" behavior was seen as a threat to a way of life, a staunch work ethic, etc." I think you're stretching it a tad boyo. "Even such economic reasoning gets masked today. "Mexicans reproduce like rabbits," "Mexicans can't keep their legs closed," etc." That's Vince though, he's hardly an example of anyone else's beliefs. He can't even voice his own suitably. He confuses Immigrants with Poor People, and Ideology with Philosophy, Politics with Sociology, and Liberals with Celery. How much an authority is he really? "Do we really care about the size of a family that is traditionally large?" We do when those who have such familiar are existing stagnantly below the poverty line and show little or no prospects for improvement. That is, of course, a wild generalization, but not an entirely invalid one. "We do however have this fear that 1. all of those "Mexican babies" will be competing with "native" Americans for jobs" No we don't, we fear they won't. The objects against minorities aren't that they are stealing all the good jobs, its that they undermine our economic policy. Competition is supposed to breed success, a phrase I've been parroting on this board for years, but when you have to lower the requirements others must attain to compete, everyone loses. The more responsibility you take for an individual, the less they take for themselves. If they get the message they don't need to try as hard, and can succeed, they will try only as much as they need to. "2. we're worried that all of those immigrants will become our financial burden through programs of assistance." Outmoded, unecessary and irresponsible programs of assistance which should be done away with en toto, you forgot to mention. "Well, I think it's unfair to say they are poor because they are lazy." I agree, which is why I did not say that. I simply said they were not lucretive, meaning they do not leave the country richer for their having been here. "No, I have no empirical evidence to support it, but it just simply isn't the experience I've seen and witnessed. Latinos in particular do work I could not imagine doing, and they do it for very little." Yes, I agree, but that does not make them inherently necessary. I'm moving to VA with the intention of going into construction, that is my real world empiricism. There is nothing wrong with blue collar work, and to be honest, I look forward to it. They are illustrating in their actions, the American work ethic embraced by our ancestors, and I applaud them for it. . .So long as they are also willing to contribute civically as well, because otherwise, they are simple using the system to their own, selfish, benefit. "Secondly, your information is a bit off if my recollection of the 2000 Census data serves me correctly." Don't trust me, read it for yourself: http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/back101.html "Asian Americans have in fact assimilated quite well into society" Chinatown is an excellent example of this. I know we have tons of them in California, one in Frisco, another in LA, one in SD. There is even one here in DT Honolulu. This is assimilation at its finest, a standard I wish the Irish had embraced. "as have African Americans" Really? Then why the constant cries for affirmative action and repparations? Why the accusations of institutionalized racism? "(since you suggested a book to me, I'm going to suggest Facing up to the American Dream by Jennifer Hochschild to you)." I'll read it when I have a chance, but this summer is going to be one that is going to be particularly harsh for me. I'll be offline from the end of this week until late September, but when I come back you'll hear my thoughts. "But anyway, according to the 2000 Census numbers, Latinos were the least "willing" to assimilate into American society, and furthermore, for such a thing to even happen in respect to their size in numbers, it would take a massive reorganization of American sub-urban lifestyle." No we do not change in order to make immigrants feel more at home, this is America, and if they are coming for any other reason than to be American, I will do everything I can in order to stop them from coming here. "Again, have to disagree. This country, IMO, not only SHOULD welcome them, but it NEEDS to welcome them." Why? "I don't think the American economy would totally collapse without their presence, but I do however feel that a great deal of our blue collar/agricultural/manual labor depends upon such people." While record number of naturalized Americans face homelessness and unemployment, while families are eating in soup kitchens though all adult members are working, you think we need to take care of those born to other countries? I say take care of our own, and until we can, everyone else can go straight to hell for all I care. One American life is worth more to me than any ten uitlanders. |
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| May 25th, 2003 10:32 PM | ||||
| The_voice_of_reason |
i said Quote:
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| May 25th, 2003 10:27 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Quote:
I agree, they were perceived as a threat to the moral and social order, but there were economic implications as well, because their "wild" behavior was seen as a threat to a way of life, a staunch work ethic, etc. Even such economic reasoning gets masked today. "Mexicans reproduce like rabbits," "Mexicans can't keep their legs closed," etc. Do we really care about the size of a family that is traditionally large? I doubt it. We do however have this fear that 1. all of those "Mexican babies" will be competing with "native" Americans for jobs, and 2. we're worried that all of those immigrants will become our financial burden through programs of assistance. Quote:
Secondly, your information is a bit off if my recollection of the 2000 Census data serves me correctly. Asian Americans have in fact assimilated quite well into society, as have African Americans, who are truly our most unique "immigrant." (since you suggested a book to me, I'm going to suggest Facing up to the American Dream by Jennifer Hochschild to you). But anyway, according to the 2000 Census numbers, Latinos were the least "willing" to assimilate into American society, and furthermore, for such a thing to even happen in respect to their size in numbers, it would take a massive reorganization of American sub-urban lifestyle. Quote:
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| May 25th, 2003 10:05 PM | ||||
| The_Rorschach |
Check out "The American Kaleidoscope: Race, Ethnicity and Civic Culture" by Lawrence H. Fuchs You're right, every wave of immigrants has been percieved as a threat. . .But not an economic one until recently. Previously, they had been viewed as religiously and ideologically subversive elements which, by their very presence, would undermine the American republic. Eventually, however, and generally within a single generation, those immigrants would find themselves fully immersed in American culture, because ours is not a racial or ethnic bond, but an an economic and political one. Economically, those immigrants were desired. Even states like Massechusettes and Pennsylvania came to terms with the fact that they were not only viable, but necessary, in a capitalistic sense. Maybe its because past immigrants were mostly German, English and Irish, or maybe its because Americans of those periods were made of better stuff. . .But in any case, the immigrants of today neither show any inclination, nor even willingness, to assimilate. Nor are they fiancially lucretive. I'm not saying their presence is a great threat, economically or sociably, but that does not make them in any way desirable |
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| May 25th, 2003 09:33 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
I realize you're being sarcastic, but your jest is accurate. We haven't moved towards a specialized economy simply because we're so wonderful and we can afford to, we've taken that direction greatly due to the ethnic and racial dichotomy within our work force. I searched around the DOL's Bureau of Statistcs, but you know the government, they love to make it difficult for the average citizen to find some information. And on the "burden" of the immigrants, isn't this a rather reactionary view point? Every wave of immigrant has historically been some kind of a "burden" on the existing society here. We are a country of immigrants, and IMO, it's simply the price you pay. I'm sure 50 years ago that blacks represented a larger share of that "burden," now, more blacks are improving (at least statistically speaking), and they are moving more and more into the "middle class." Also, I have one problem with your chart. Perhaps immigrants comprise a large part of our poor, but they are also more heavily populated in states such as Texas, which offers less on social services and assistance programs anyway. How much of a drain or "burden" can they be...? |
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| May 25th, 2003 09:17 PM | ||||
| The_Rorschach |
Well, this is what I know about Immigrants, regardless of whether they are illegal or not, immigrants are more of a drain to society than an asset. He wants to try and explain away their presence as though they were filling necessary economic niches which would otherwise never be filled, but he is wrong. Just to find a verifable online source, I took my stats from the Center For Immigration Studies.  "The poverty rate for immigrants is 50 percent higher than that of natives, with immigrants and their U.S.-born children (under age 21) accounting for 22 percent of all persons living in poverty." =-=-=-=- They comprise nearly a fifth of our poor, which is not anywhere near proportional to their total population presence. =-=-=-=- "The percentage of immigrants without a high school diploma is 30 percent, more than three times the rate for natives. Also, of all persons without a high school education, one-third are now immigrants. Immigrants are also slightly more likely than natives to have a graduate or professional degree. " "One-third of immigrants do not have health insurance — two and one-half times the rate for natives. Immigrants who arrived after 1989 and their U.S.-born children account for 60 percent or 5.5 million of the increase in the size the uninsured population." =-=-=-=- Now this is a winning combination, but hey, its alright, because we need more unskilled labourers in a post-industrialized economy which is increasingly being driven by specialized and educated workers. =-=-=-=- |
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| May 25th, 2003 09:02 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore | Oh, let me clarify myself, I'm not claiming that ALL immigrants involved in manual labor are illegal, although I'm sure many are. The other problem is that those work permits expire, and then they stay here. The line between "legal" and "illegal" isn't only a hard one to determine, but it seems to rapidly change per individual. | |||
| May 25th, 2003 08:56 PM | ||||
| The_Rorschach |
I reserve judgement on the basis that necessary facts are not available, which I would think, is the prudent responce. I do however, know for a fact that certain stastical data is misleading, for in California there are many migrant workers that are used to harvest produce, but many of them are citizens of Mexico allowed to operate on a work visa in the United States. However, they have been referred to as "immigrants" by certain liberals in the attempt to make the presence of all illegal immigrants somehow acceptable. |
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| May 25th, 2003 08:50 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
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| May 25th, 2003 08:40 PM | ||||
| The_Rorschach |
Exactly my point Kev. There is no documentation, and yet he presents what his "feelings" tell him is true and presents it as fact. I'm not going to just going to stand here idly and let him get away with it. I don't care how much sense something makes if it is not representative of the reality. If he wants to parrot unthruths and opinions, thats fine, but don't expectme to show silent toleration for it. |
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| May 25th, 2003 08:27 PM | ||||
| KevinTheOmnivore |
Quote:
Think about the diners and restaurants you go to, the farms you drive by, etc. Economically speaking, the above claim makes sense. More Americans are getting college degrees than ever before, the economy as a whole is moving towards special services and skills, as opposed to manual labor and production. |
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| May 25th, 2003 07:58 PM | ||||
| Jeanette X |
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| May 25th, 2003 07:45 PM | ||||
| CaptainBubba | I'm gonna be honest here. I'm far too lazy to do your assigned research. I'm getting my info from various radio and news sources that have come and passed. I'm not going to work to prove a point that shouldn't even be an object of contention. Why do you find what I'm saying hard to believe? | |||
| May 25th, 2003 07:36 PM | ||||
| Jeanette X |
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| May 25th, 2003 05:45 PM | ||||
| The_Rorschach |
"The truly funny thing is that the unimployement rate amoung immigrants is constantly lower than that of naturalized citizens. The reason that they have lower incomes and therefore more eligable for economic aid is they don't have the nessicary education or the means to get that education. I forget why this is funny but it is. Another thing is immigrants illegle or otherwise take the jobs no self-respecting educated american is willing to take, do you like vegetables? They were picked by immigrants. do you like your clothes? They were sewn by immigrants. " Prove it. Saying a thing doesn't make it so. Tell me, proporationately, exactly how many vegetables are picked by migrant workers working illegally within the US, and then compare that with the total number produced by other, legal, means -including, but not limited to, produce bought from foreign nations and imported or grown and harvested by legal residents. Also, contrast the amount of clothing sewn by immigrants and sold domestically with that produced by manufacturers, corporations and small buisnesses without the use of immigrants. Furthermore, once you have done that, I want you to compare the estimated number of illegal immigrants swarming into this nation with the number of immigrants employed in the fashion you cite above. |
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| May 25th, 2003 05:33 PM | ||||
| The_voice_of_reason |
The truly funny thing is that the unimployement rate amoung immigrants is constantly lower than that of naturalized citizens. The reason that they have lower incomes and therefore more eligable for economic aid is they don't have the nessicary education or the means to get that education. I forget why this is funny but it is. Another thing is immigrants illegle or otherwise take the jobs no self-respecting educated american is willing to take, do you like vegetables? They were picked by immigrants. do you like your clothes? They were sewn by immigrants. from vince Quote:
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| May 25th, 2003 05:16 PM | ||||
| snake | SOFT ON COMMUNISM! | |||
| May 25th, 2003 04:37 PM | ||||
| AChimp |
 Okay, we can add not understanding figures of speech to Vinth's list of attributes now, too. |
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| May 25th, 2003 02:12 PM | ||||
| VinceZeb | Well, Chimp, if you knew anything, you would know that the Klan harrased Italian immigrants as well as Catholics during their peak, so I don't think I'll be joining the klan anytime soon. But then again, to know that you would have to have a brain, which your post show otherwise. | |||
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