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| Feb 22nd, 2006 02:57 AM | |||
| Abcdxxxx |
One more... http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=1 That link is to a Hamas website with an animated graphic of a nuclear bomb blowing up a Jewish star. |
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| Feb 21st, 2006 12:54 PM | |||
| Abcdxxxx |
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| Feb 6th, 2006 09:48 PM | |||
| Preechr |
Grit Your Teeth, Embrace Arab Democracy Four reasons why there is no going back Michael Young Almost as soon as Hamas had won a majority in Palestinian legislative elections last week, politicians and publicists began spinning the results to buttress their agendas on Middle Eastern democracy. Not surprisingly, the arguments tended to gravitate toward absolutes, though much about regional democratization forestalls this. What works in one society may be a calamity in another; what an election victory shows about a group's popularity may have nothing to do with that group's criminal behavior. Democracy will continue to be cacophonous because that is its nature, and the nature of the Arab societies in which it is supposed to take root. Take the two broad arguments greeting the Hamas victory. One side argues it was generally a good thing, because Palestinians had managed a peaceful transition of authority, permitting voters to settle their scores with a corrupt Fatah movement that had led the Palestinian Authority into chaos. Palestinians did not really vote in an Islamic state, this narrative continues, but sought an alternative to the despair of the moment. That's why Hamas' greatest challenge will be to satisfy the public's expectations for an amelioration of socio-economic conditions, making less likely a resort to violence. Deep down, advocates of this line suggest, Hamas is pragmatic and will accept a settlement with Israel along the 1967 borders, if East Jerusalem is made the capital of Palestine. The other side retorts that such optimism is ludicrous. Hamas may have been ambiguous during the election campaign, but never renounced its objective to regain control over the whole of geographic Palestine, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean. It did not delete from its charter the aspiration to destroy Israel, even though it recently saw a tactical advantage in not highlighting this. Elections were a mistake, proponents of this line of reasoning continue, because Hamas is much stronger and now has a national platform to pursue its destructive policies. At a wider level, the fetish of democracy has thus been proven detrimental, because true democracy has no business bringing to power fundamentally undemocratic, indeed terrorist, groups. It's difficult in Hamas' case to agree with one of the sides while ignoring the protests of the other. The movement is hardly a bearded version of, let's say, the Christian Democrats (indeed it's not even a bearded version of Fatah), and violence will continue to be at the center of its endeavors. It will not soon renounce its ambition to recapture all of Palestine, because it will not soon reject its deeply held beliefs that Israel is illegitimate, that the Oslo process was a terrible mistake, that Palestinian refugees from 1948 have a right to return to their towns and villages of origin, and that killing Israeli civilians is acceptable because Israelis do the same. Hamas will surely have to address the day-to-day worries of its countrymen, but that hardly diminishes the fact that the movement feels it can deal with Israel in a far more successful way than the Palestinian Authority (PA) did. This means shaping a different approach than that of PA President Mahmoud Abbas, who sought, but could never deliver, Palestinian disarmament in exchange for Israeli concessions. But should such realities cast doubt on the need for Middle Eastern societies to embrace democracy, even if Islamists use this to come to power? No, at least not in principle, though there will be many occasions where one's worst doubts are confirmed. Democratization cannot come with illusions: for certain groups it will be an instrument of leverage into positions of leadership, followed by subsequent efforts to empty democracy of its meaning. But that's where societies, but also the international community, must show there is a high price to be paid for reinforcing intolerance. Why insist on democracy? First, because the stalemate imposed by autocratic Arab regimes, particularly secular regimes, will give at some stage, and may lead to Islamists' seizing authority anyway, without a pluralistic system in place to create social power centers offsetting them. Even in secular states such as Egypt, Syria and Jordan, Islamists have strongly infiltrated the system, so that the despots, eager to buy legitimacy through Islamic credentials, have ceded much by way of secular values. Rather than limiting the ambitions of Islamists, this behavior has only bolstered them. Elections may indeed represent a final stepping stone for Islamists to take power, but a controlled, genuine democratic opening beforehand would allow alternative groups to gain strength. A second reason making the pursuit of democracy worthwhile is that it instills, at least in some societies, a notion of systematic accountability and transfer of authority. Iraq's Shiites may vote Islamist, but they also have had the opportunity to be asked about their views three times in 2005. It would be very difficult for an autocratic leadership to deny them this prerogative in the future. And with the habit of free elections comes the public's growing aggressiveness in evaluating its leaders. Even in Iran, a country where elections have kept conservatives in power for two decades, voting is bound to lead to the emergence of more liberal forces once the system has had time to find an equilibrium and judge the merits of the revolutionary generation embodied by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. It may take time, but the mechanism of accountability is there, and was already twice used as a platform of protest against the system when Iranians voted for Mohammad Khatami as president. A third reason is that democracy imposes transparency. When parties are obligated to clarify their positions to an electorate, they have to live with the consequences. Hamas' haziness on its pursuit of terrorism is disturbing, but the implications are also clear for everyone to see. The movement cannot forever hide its intentions, and voters, but also those pouring billions of dollars into Palestinian society, now have a paper trail to assess. Palestinians, in turn, can determine where their interests lie, and force Hamas in one direction or another. Finally, there is the march of history. Democracy must reach Arab societies at some stage, after decades of debilitating authoritarianism. The Islamist wave is partly due to the abject failure of secular Arab nationalist states to let their peoples breathe. Denying a process to transcend these circumstances makes no sense. The road will be bumpy, and will be made bumpier by Arab regimes' refusing to ease their societies into a slow process that can absorb the contradictions inherent in democratization. Nor can counterfeit democracy substitute for an authentic opening. Islamists may well win the first round in many places, and in some they might even try to ensure no second round follows. That's why domestic and foreign democratic barriers preventing this must be enhanced. But simply insisting that Arab states should perpetuate the deadlock of today not only ensures Islamists will gain strength by counter-reaction; it also displays remarkable contempt for the desire of Arabs to be counted. |
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| Feb 3rd, 2006 05:20 PM | |||
| Abcdxxxx |
Do you really in your heart believe that there are "two wrongs for every fault"...or that we can't look at history and see that there is a value to ascribing who is a victim, without blame? As I've said, Israel's existance, and having Jewish neighbors was the original provocation. The way Israel, and Jews have responded is all relative to that. There were Palestinian Arabs, just like there were Palestinian Jews. It wasn't an identity, nor was there a seperate tribal identity from those Arabs who went on to form Jordan. So when I say mythology, I'm talking about a post-PLO concept of a Palestinian. A great deal of Arabs involved in the Palestinian cause aren't related to the original 600,000 (or whatever number you want to use) at all. Do the math. Israel has 1million Arabs....more then half of Jordan's population are Palestinian...there are Palestinians in the EU, US, and elsewhere.... how the hell do you end up with 3 million in Gaza alone ?! The PA leadership is mostly Egyptian. I don't mean Palestinians raised in Egypt, I mean outright Egyptians, who started within Egyptian nationalist organizations before adopting the Palestinian angle. The cliche answer is to question if Palestinians have their own distinct style of food, song, dance, etc. The idea of Palestinian refugee camps is ambigious, and misleading as well. Even taking the name Palestine, and claiming it as their own is wrapped in mythology. So there's a great deal of mythology involved. That said, identity politics really come down to "hey if you want to call yourself a Palestinian and say you're a seperate people, then fiiiiiine". It's no coincidence that some of the first self declared Palestinian Historians were Literature, and Linguistics professors. Do I believe they have a right to a State? I believe Jordan was meant to be their State, as part of the "two states for two people" concept. I 'm fine with the idea of a 2nd Palestinian State in Gaza, and a portion of the WB, but I know that's not going to satisfy their nationalist goals. The map used in PA schools shows the entirety of Israel labeled green for Palestinian. I also think that with plenty of Arab owned land for them, the draw to Israel isn't real estate. They're not looking for equal rights, they're looking to replace Israel's rights. Their refusal to live next door to Jews is my biggest concern.... and I think it's unlikely that some American college kids will be using Marxist texts to argue my right to return to Iraq and evict all the Arabs there, any time soon. It would be pretty ridiculous if they did, don't you think? |
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| Feb 3rd, 2006 11:25 AM | |||
| ziggytrix |
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I almost hate to ask this, but in referring to "the mythology" of the Palestinian identity, are you saying you believe those people who call themselves Palestinians don't have the right to a state? Or even the right to a Palestinian identity? Or am I reading too much into your choice of that word? |
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| Feb 3rd, 2006 11:01 AM | |||
| imported_I, fuzzbot. |
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| Feb 3rd, 2006 10:17 AM | |||
| Abcdxxxx |
By "IDF Brass" do you mean the military leadership itself, or the PM of Defense and the Knesset itself? Israelis are inherently cocky. It's part of the persona. If they didn't want peace, there are easier ways to go about war. For all they've been accused of (Nazism, racial oppression, apharthaid, genocide, etc.) it's obvious there is a true desire for peace. My main concern is that you're applying your belief that all nations are trouble, and all states indulge in forms of racial oppression, to one tiny nation which is often made to be the scapegoat. It's not that the pro-Israel contingent doesn't see mistakes, or flaws in the execution of Israel's young democracy - it's just that we can't speak to those issues without it being interpreted as a concession to all the libels, and disinformation. As in "Aha, see the IDF *is* excessive! We told you!". I can appreciate humor and satire, but unless the joke is responding like an uninformed parrot with a simplistic view of the the situation, I see no reason not to respond as if you're sincere. Regarding 1967 - it wasn't a landmark year for Israel, truthfully. The borders were never defined, and Israel was attacked again 6 years later on Yom Kippur. The situation really is worse then in 1967 though... as I've said before, there sure were millions of Palestinians salivating right on the green line , or terrorist armies out in the open, back then. A good argument could be made that things have improved for the Palestinians, both in terms of furthering the mythology of their identity, to even the quality of life they experience, even living in a harsh warzone. They have self rule, and full autonomy for the first time in modern history. Sadly, being Palestinian has become all about war with the Jewish State....even if they manage to drive all the Jews in the ocean, what are they left with? |
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| Feb 3rd, 2006 01:48 AM | |||
| ziggytrix |
"Well since you still live in Texas, and not Mexico, let's leave your ideals for a utopean world in dreamland, for now." Quote:
So long as I'm living in America, why should I be complaining, is that it? But I'm not talking about waking up in an utopian dreamland, I'm talking about advancing humanity in a positive direction. You can call it a dream; I call it a goal. But I'm wandering off-topic. Quite frankly, those who seek the complete obliteration of the state of Israel are human scum. Their minds are twisted by lies and their lives filling with enough indignities that they think their own death is meritous if it kills enough of the innocents they believe are their enemy. They bring NOTHING to the table for humanity. As you've said a hundred times, Israel are doing the best of any nation in the region. I'm not contesting that. All I'm saying the state of Israel isn't blameless in the racial/religious/class struggle over there. Yet I'd have a hard time believing the heads of Israel intentionally sought out a path of racial or religious oppression, though I suppose class oppression is somewhat inevitable in any modern wealth-driven society. But violently forcing their own populace out of the contested areas is probably a worse move than encouraging them to build there in the first place. In this case the IDF does not seem to be a force of racial oppression, but rather just a force of oppression. I don't know for sure, but I'm just guessing the folks in these settlements aren't rich and influential. Maybe this is what it will take for Islamic extremists to wake up to the fact that people are using religion to manipulate them to irreligious ends. If so, then I'll eat my words, and Israel will have pulled off an amazing feat, although I fear we're treading back into dreamland at this point. More to the point, my only genuine negative opinions of Israel are regarding the military (and even then it's absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it is a Jewish military - the problems are inherent to any military authority and one need only try to tally the amount of destruction caused there by American forces in the last half century). Based on my very limited knowledge and watching a film of a meeting between IDF leaders and PA security leaders from around 2003, I don't really think the IDF brass were particularly interested in any peace process. Maybe they were too cynical to think there can ever be peace, maybe I'm completely wrong - I dunno. I don't know what the best solution is, but I'm pretty sure the military solution is one of escalation and destruction. But escalation targets the symptoms of the problem, not the sources. Next year will mark 40 years since the 6 Day War. How much better is the situation in the Middle East, in terms of reaching a real, lasting peace? Is a lasting peace even a realistic goal? And if you can't get past the i-mockery induced sarcasm that tends to seep from my posts or if you just honestly think I'm bringing nothing to this discussion, please don't bother to reply, as I can think of a million more productive ways to spend my time than trying to have a serious discussion with you on a fucking internet forum attached to a humor website. |
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| Feb 3rd, 2006 12:11 AM | |||
| Abcdxxxx |
Well since you still live in Texas, and not Mexico, let's leave your ideals for a utopean world in dreamland, for now. Israel's opposition is a nationalist cause... with the goal of statehood IN PLACE of an Israeli state. In their case, they desire a Jewish free, mostly Christian free, fascist, totalitarian nation in place of Israel, a country which has over a million non-Jewish citizens. (How many times must I repeat that!?). How is it that you percieve Israel with it's multi-ethnic, secular government as being guilty of racial oppression? Tell me where a Druze, or Kurd has more rights in the Mid-East, then in Israel? When Israel turns inward, not out of guilt, or self reckoning, but to appease it's critics, and as a result, strips it's own Jewish citizens of basic rights as to which land they can or can not live, simply because of their ethnicity, then it's a problem. The only outposts being removed are Jewish ones. Arabs can stay. We're talking about the expulsion of 20,000 Jews in the face of Hamas taking control, and little attention from the World media. Scary, no? The use of force to justify their own history of self defense is obscene, and undermines their own status as a soveriegn nation. Why is peace contingent on the region becoming free of Jews!? Why shouldn't that be considered a "racial attack" ? |
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| Feb 2nd, 2006 10:23 PM | |||
| ziggytrix |
"Sure it's relevant. What are you really askin? " Well I'm just trying to clear something up that has me confused. I thought the Israeli government had encouraged settlement in these "buffer zones" and now that they're forcing everyone out, it seems like this is a problem the Israeli government created. If I'm not mistaken, you seem to agree with me on that point. But in my opinion, while the heavy-handed, no tolerance, no exceptions method of enforcement of policy makes sense when you're used to dealing with crazies who'll blow themselves up to get to you, at the point at which it becomes standard operating procedure for everything, you've cut your nose off to spite your face. The point where we diverge, I guess, is that I see examples of those kinds of mistakes made against non-Jews in the area, I see it as furthering the misunderstand of a government or class oppression for a racially motivated oppression. It was much the same in the US when organizations like the Black Panthers saw every flaw in the white establishment as an overt racial attack. As for the notion that "Isreal's right to exist is provacation" I'm of the opinion that NO nation has a right to exist, and nationalism is just a symptom of inbreds who think their "pure-blood" makes them anything other than prone to disease and disfunction. But I doubt that particular human condition could be overlooked short of a global threat from another species of life, and so far no alien race has shown up for us to unite against in our natural desire to band together to fight our enemies. It's just as well, they'd prolly obliterate us. 
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| Feb 2nd, 2006 05:43 PM | |||
| Abcdxxxx |
Seriously...why are you even entering the conversation, let alone acting like a patronizing douche, if you can't keep up? "So let's be clear. Are you saying the Jews in Gaza are a bunch of terrorists in the making?" There are no Israelis in Gaza. Olmert was talking about a group called the Hilltop Youth, who are a religious radical group, of fairly young kids, who might have watched Red Dawn one too many times. Israel's Kadima party (which includes Olmert) would like to paint all the settlers in the same light as these kids. We're not talking about Gaza anymore. Gaza is completely Palestinian controlled. Understand, there is a political climate in Israel where the secular have turned their backs on anything viewed as religious. Sharon, and now Olmert are capitilizing on that so they can carry out the expulsion of Jews from the disputed territories. "Is how they got there irrelevant?" Sure it's relevant. What are you really askin? "Is this violence primarily Settlers against IDF? Does "pulled the IDF" mean the army retreated cuz it was getting too violent?" Right, the IDF is attempting to evacuate Jews from small villages living in "outposts" which the government has deemed illegal. They're being met with resistance. From what I gather, the army retreated when one of their radios got swiped, and they lost tactical ground controlling the riots. You have to understand, the protest opposition they're facing comes from Israel's citizens, most of whom have undergone military training. The clash is between Jews. Arabs, and others continue to build "outposts" of their own in these towns, without recourse. I understand these stories aren't making it into US media...which is why I posted about it. "What makes you think they cannot get bulldozers out there? " The geography? We're talking tiny mountain regions, and narrow roads. "Does the IDF Bulldozer Brigade just not have the funds it did 2 years ago - no wait, they're disbanded aren't they? I guess it would be a lot cheaper to just go in and kick asses, huh? " See, I think you're trying to make some kind of biting statement. Try making an informed one next time. They bulldozed all the Jewish homes in Gaza just fine. "The government of Israel has made plenty of mistakes which have contributed to the hatred and antisemitism in that region. If that's one-dimensional "moral equivalency" then fine, call me a one-dimensional moral equivalist! Oh boo hoo, whatever shall I do. " Israel has made plenty of mistakes, but to say it contributes to hatred against Jews in that region is pretty ignorant of the historical timeline for the conflict. They disliked Jews before Israel even existed. Israel doesn't have to do much to provoke hatred...unless you credit Israel's right to exist as a provocation in itself. "It seems to me however, that a blatant refusal to ever assign any fault to the Israeli government is a MUCH more one dimensional attitude. " I assign plenty of fault to Israel. Ready? I'll list some mistakes they made: - Giving land to Palestinians without a treaty instead of it's previous owners, Egypt, and Jordan. - Negotiating with the PLO, and legitamizing Arafat, sponsoring their return. - Demolishing productive communities in Gaza, leaving 9,000 Jews homeless, and 11,000 Palestinians unemployed. - Building settlements in Gaza, when the land should have remained a buffer zone. - Pandering to Egypt, and tearing down refugee housing in the Sinai. |
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| Feb 2nd, 2006 03:11 PM | |||
| ziggytrix |
Actually I don't get it. While not as bad as KikI, your writing is quite often very difficult to understand. Plus you seem to assume I follow Isreal's news more than casually. You are aware that these current events are not really getting much US media attention, right? I don't think Bush even said a word about Israel (other than saying Hamas best recognize) in his State of the Union. So let's be clear. Are you saying the Jews in Gaza are a bunch of terrorists in the making? Is how they got there irrelevant? Is this violence primarily Settlers against IDF? Does "pulled the IDF" mean the army retreated cuz it was getting too violent? What makes you think they cannot get bulldozers out there? Does the IDF Bulldozer Brigade just not have the funds it did 2 years ago - no wait, they're disbanded aren't they? I guess it would be a lot cheaper to just go in and kick asses, huh? The government of Israel has made plenty of mistakes which have contributed to the hatred and antisemitism in that region. If that's one-dimensional "moral equivalency" then fine, call me a one-dimensional moral equivalist! Oh boo hoo, whatever shall I do. It seems to me however, that a blatant refusal to ever assign any fault to the Israeli government is a MUCH more one dimensional attitude. The refusal to entertain the thought that extremely violent police action might not be the most effective control is pretty one-dimensional. But whatever, I'm sure you have such a deeper understanding of human nature, as studied as you are on Middle Eastern affairs. IF you deign to answer any of my questions, oh great sage of all things Middle Eastern, could you please be sure to put it in terms the "peanut gallery" can understand. Maybe even proofread it before you post to make sure you are being clear and multidimensional? 
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| Feb 2nd, 2006 02:20 PM | |||
| Abcdxxxx |
I'm glad they're playing to the peanut gallery, so that even the most basic one dimensional clown can get the message then!! Even ZIggy gets it. Don't worry, moral equivalency is alive and well! They intentionally pulled out all stops (I'm not sure they can get bulldozers into those areas or they'd do it) to show the Palestinian's weren't treated any worse then Israelis.....is it working yet? By all accounts, and short of bullets, the violence was unprecedented. The latest - Olmert is talking about "the Jewish Hamas", and today they pulled the IDF after another clash where some Hilltop Youth stole a radio. |
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| Feb 2nd, 2006 09:52 AM | |||
| ziggytrix | Guess it goes to show the IDF is brutal no matter whose home they're bulldozing. | ||
| Feb 2nd, 2006 03:31 AM | |||
| Abcdxxxx |
The campaign strategy of the acting PM, Olmert, seems to be stuck on polarizing the community, to get the Leftists to the polls. This should have been a time of renewed unity, what with Hamas taking office. The idea is to prove they still want peace, and will continue with the road map (even though they announced the road map was dead? huh!?) because Israel keeps it's end of a bargain. Way to empower the radicalists in Gaza! So that means they're evicting 20,000 MORE Jews in the next couple weeks, even though the 9,000 refugees of Gaza are still homeless!! There are going to be HUGE protests, and huge underground resistance groups popping up. The subtext is that these are tinnny areas, filled with Jewish holy sites, (Hebron is second only to Jerusalem in importance) but they've been Arab dominated since Jews were driven out in the 20's. These are some of the most hostile areas for Jews to even try and live in. It's debateable what is an illegal outpost, or a legal settlement, but what is clear, is that these areas will be Jewish Free before elections. The IDF were brutal today. |
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| Feb 2nd, 2006 02:49 AM | |||
| Big Papa Goat |
because some settlers aren't happy about withdrawling? but I don't see why Israel is working at withdrawling from palestinian territories if the palestinians don't seem to care about peace talks anymore although I think the point of the story may be that Israel is in fact still working at the peace process in spite of the belligerent new palestinian parliment |
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| Feb 1st, 2006 11:31 PM | |||
| ziggytrix | uh, why is the Israeli acting Prime Minister having the army attack their own people? | ||
| Feb 1st, 2006 09:07 PM | |||
| Abcdxxxx |
Meanwhile, Hamas take power, and a week later.... Jan 31 -- Olmert administration uses Israeli army to violently attack and expel thousands of Jewish men, women, and children from their homes near Hebron. Close to 200 injured in the attack, including some serious injuries to children. Citizens block roads in Jerusalem in protest. Riots are expected throughout the country. |
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| Jan 31st, 2006 08:17 PM | |||
| Slinky Ferret |
Although I don't know nearly enough about this subject to fully understand it all I agree with the views of Abcdxxxx. I've read many different articles and information on this situation and I think at the end of the day its about two nations of people, the fair majority of whom can live side by side in peace. I understand the Palestinians' need to protect themselves. But I really think there is a big difference between killing soldiers and intentionally killing civilians. As for I, fuzzbot. Sorry hon, but I think you're being a bit OTT and hostile towards Abcdxxxx. Not sure why, maybe this is a thorny issue for you. The world as we know it is changing rapidly, I get the feeling there are going to be some difficult times ahead and I'd like permission to be scared! |
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| Jan 29th, 2006 12:34 PM | |||
| imported_I, fuzzbot. |
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there's vomit on my shoes already mom's spaghetti |
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| Jan 29th, 2006 11:50 AM | |||
| Pharaoh | You hippies would have to be forced to go and fight the real Nazis if Hitler was around today. And even then you'd be totally useless. | ||
| Jan 29th, 2006 11:15 AM | |||
| Chojin | Does this mean I can change your title to 'Resident Nazi', as you apparently answer to that now? | ||
| Jan 29th, 2006 04:31 AM | |||
| Kulturkampf |
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Because I am more conservative than yuo and don't like my arguments? It is libel. |
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| Jan 28th, 2006 05:43 PM | |||
| Abcdxxxx |
Israeli's are funny. What she forgets is there are a lot of people like Ziggy stuck in 1993 who didn't get the supposedly clear message a HAMAS victory sends. Israeli's use that line of positive thinking for everything... "now we can REALLY defend ourselves"...and it never happens. They just slowly make more concenssions. Israel doesn't want to wipe out Palestinians. A good portion of the country have Palestinian friends, or coworkers. You just have to remember that for years, the Pro-Israel contigent has been claiming Palestinians don't want peace, they want genocide against Jews.... and so now there's less of a charade left. There ARE Palestinians who want peace...but they were never in the PA government, and will never come from any of the PLO derivative organizations. It's stories like this that are truly horrifying. SUICIDE BOMBERS MOTHER ELECTED TO PALESTINIAN PARLIAMENT GAZA, Jan. 26, 2006 — - Mariam Farahat, who was elected to the Palestinian parliament, can work a crowd like a veteran politician -- shaking hands and greeting supporters. When she gets on the stage at a Hamas rally, she is the star attraction. She was one of Hamas' most popular candidates in Wednesday's election. In Gaza, Farahat is known as Um Nidal, or Mother of the Struggle -- a mother who sent three of her six sons on Hamas suicide missions against Israeli targets http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/print?id=1536576 On a up note, I'm pretty sure HITLER WON IN JENIN. Now I know Arafat said Jenin doesn't exist anymore, but Jamal Mohammad Mahmoud Abu al-Rob aka Hitler won a seat for Fatah party there. Fatah were the moderates right? |
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| Jan 28th, 2006 01:14 PM | |||
| Chojin |
From what I understand of the issues (which is admittedly as limited as our resident nazis) a lot of Palestinians are just so far gone in their hateful craze that it doesn't leave a lot of options on the table for avoiding genocide. Our country isn't too far behind, either, but then again we don't have an entire nation of homosexuals next door to harass. I hope Hamas can grow up and bargain, I really do. I would take no joy in watching Israel roll over them. |
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