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Sep 13th, 2004 12:36 PM
Helm
Quote:
ideological anarchy and communism
Yeah there is a difference. Communists believe the socialistic groundwork between capitalism and anarchism to be critical, whereas anarchists do not. They're all for revolution and armed strugge to go from capitalism to anarchy. That's basically it. Nobody is disagreeing with you.
Sep 12th, 2004 05:58 PM
Preechr I can understand that. I started off ready for the usual communism fight, too, but I gave up on that because it's unwinnable. I still maintain that there is a fundamental difference between ideological anarchy and communism, even in it's utopian or advanced form.
Sep 12th, 2004 02:08 PM
davinxtk You just seemed to be unleashing an avalanche of condecension, but maybe I can attribute a little of that to the atmosphere and what I expect from I-Mockery.

I didn't mean to say you were straight-out making it up, either, you just seemed to be inflating its importance in this context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
Communism is not authoritarian, Stalinism, however, is.
See what I mean?

It's a subject that's hard to discuss with people who didn't enjoy their history lessons. I know people who won't listen to word one about communism because the only thing they associate the word with is Stalin. I'm used to having to scream at people and tell them to read a book, hence my initial post.
Sep 12th, 2004 01:16 PM
Preechr Sorry, davin... I didn't mean for you to think that entire post was directed at you. I can see how you thought that, though. I sort of started off talking to you, then went off on a tangent there...

However, if by rules I'm making up you're referring to the capitalization stuff, I didn't make that up. Like Zhukov, I generally don't follow the form exactly either, but it's helpful to use when discussing the differences between Marx and Stalin/Lenin, which was what we were talking about, just as I generally prefer to think of myself as a small L libertarian, or a small L liberal or classical liberal... at least to a degree. That way, people don't confuse me for a Libertarian Party member or a Democrat.

Instead of that previous post, I had considered a longer, but more to the point detail of the difference between an anarchal group and a commune, but as I said, it would have been much longer and probably a little more soap-boxy/ insulting, so I just tried to clarify a related position. I don't think I said anything all that controversial, but I'd be happy to discuss it further. I didn't mean to piss you off.
Sep 11th, 2004 07:38 PM
davinxtk Preechr.
Sep 11th, 2004 04:15 PM
Ant10708
Quote:
Originally Posted by davinxtk
Thanks for the sociology lesson, jackass. While your somewhat distorted concept of the point you're trying to make might pan out well in your head, it doesn't quite work itself out in the context of this thread. What I saw, and participated in, was a foolish disagreement that seemed to be ignorant of your oh-so-eloquently described dichotomy.
You have this idea that there's some holy division between commnuist principles and any Communist party. You're building a linguistic wall based on specific examples and attempting to argue based on rules that nobody else follows. Thank you, Red Queen.

Get off your more-educated-than-thou trip and quit splitting hairs.
Who is that addressed to?
Sep 11th, 2004 01:06 PM
davinxtk Thanks for the sociology lesson, jackass. While your somewhat distorted concept of the point you're trying to make might pan out well in your head, it doesn't quite work itself out in the context of this thread. What I saw, and participated in, was a foolish disagreement that seemed to be ignorant of your oh-so-eloquently described dichotomy.
You have this idea that there's some holy division between commnuist principles and any Communist party. You're building a linguistic wall based on specific examples and attempting to argue based on rules that nobody else follows. Thank you, Red Queen.

Get off your more-educated-than-thou trip and quit splitting hairs.
Sep 11th, 2004 10:21 AM
Zhukov 'C' is generally used when it is the name of a formal party (like the Communist Party of France) and 'c' is used when one is discussing the communist socio-economic system or ideas in general.

It's hardly a rule that one has to stick to. personaly, I don't care whether 'C' or 'c' is used in any situation, and I use either randomly. Some people use the capital as a sign of respect, but that's kind of silly. 'C' or 'c' doesn't mean any ideological difference.

Quote:
I'm hoping that will suffice as your sentence, Zhukov...
Oh, You shouldn't have.

Quote:
I'm sure most of us are quite aware of communist theory.
I'm impressed.


By the way, the Stalin sig is a Vince quote, I'm not a stalinist if anyone cares.
Sep 11th, 2004 05:13 AM
kahljorn Most of us are smart enough to drop out of highschool
Sep 10th, 2004 09:53 PM
Ant10708 "I'm sure most of us are quite aware of communist theory."


Not all of us are smart enough to take AP statistics.
Sep 10th, 2004 03:29 PM
The One and Only...
Quote:
Originally Posted by davinxtk
I knew this guy had a lot more going for him than the red star in his avatar.


Read your Marx, bitches. Zhukov is bang on in this one, regardless of the wool of deceit that the west has pulled over your eyes. Communism isn't the fascist dictatorships that have sprung up here and there accross the globe. Those are totalitarian governments that can only serve to supplement a capitalist economy by causing wars.
No, communism is so much more dangerous than these states run by brutal maniacs that capitalists are even more scared of it than they are of labor unions.
You've been deceived your entire life about the true meaning of the color red.
Read a book, it'll do you well.
I'm sure most of us are quite aware of communist theory.
Sep 10th, 2004 01:48 PM
Preechr By the way, I'm hoping that will suffice as your sentence, Zhukov...
Sep 10th, 2004 01:46 PM
Preechr Davin, I doubt anyone willing to discuss communism and Communism seriously is unable to distinguish between the two. You seem to believe the two divergent paths can meet again, which indicates your own understanding of their relationship with one another is flawed. Both small "c" communism and capitalism are economic concepts that can be extrapolated to form societal organization constructs without actually having to be capitalized.

Generally speaking, the problem with capitalizing either one is that the lowercase version of the other ideology always manages to sneak in and corrupt things. This is only natural, because the two are naturally and inseparably two parts of a single concept. People are inherently self-interested, placing their individual needs ahead of anything else. Large "C" Communism attempts to ignore this and bend nature to place the needs of the group over the need of the individuals tht compose it. Conversely, Capitalism tends to allow natural self-interest to become greed at the expense of the group.

We exist as individuals in a group, in that order. As individuals we compete on aggressive, capitalistic terms. As members of a larger group, we submit to communal agreements with those with which we share interests. It's a yin/yang type of duality which should be pretty easy to grasp, but most people still seem to struggle with the idea that the two natures of us are not mutually exclusive or even in conflict. Achieving is just as important as sharing. The problems begin when either is forced upon the less-than-willing-or-able by a government pretending to be based in only one nature.

Anyone who cares to know already is aware of why Communism, in the form of the USSR, has failed. Most people have yet to realize that America was not unique in it's formation because it was a strictly Capitalistic nation in concept. It wasn't meant to be that. You would not achieve that effectively with a loose federation of independent states subject to a weak federal government. Now that it has developed a powerful central bureaucracy at the expense of it's member states' sovereignity, what America was designed to be... a balanced mixture of yin and yang... has ceased to exist, replaced by the opposite of Stalin's USSR: a Capitalistic, individualist's government with a state run black-market in charity.

Old Soviet nomenklatura and black-market free-enterprise are the equivalents to New America's ineffective nanny-state and lionized poor. All are seen as impurities in the system by the true-believers in the idea that the group can exist independently from or regardless to the individual.

This is running long, and I need to check my e-mail before the end of my lunch, so I'll leave it here.

HAVE A NICE DAY.
Sep 10th, 2004 09:55 AM
davinxtk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
Socialism is authoritarian, and a revolution is the most authoritarian thing there can be, but Communism is a stateless society. An anarchist society. The only authority for you is yourself.
I knew this guy had a lot more going for him than the red star in his avatar.


Read your Marx, bitches. Zhukov is bang on in this one, regardless of the wool of deceit that the west has pulled over your eyes. Communism isn't the fascist dictatorships that have sprung up here and there accross the globe. Those are totalitarian governments that can only serve to supplement a capitalist economy by causing wars.
No, communism is so much more dangerous than these states run by brutal maniacs that capitalists are even more scared of it than they are of labor unions.
You've been deceived your entire life about the true meaning of the color red.
Read a book, it'll do you well.
Sep 10th, 2004 08:49 AM
Zhukov
Quote:
Communism=Submission
Submission to what? We wont discuss, but c'mon, one sentence should be enough to pacify my curiosity.

Quote:
I don't really have any interest in vain attempts to convince the unconvinceable. Believe what you wish with my blessings.
Ooohhh... TOUCHE.
Sep 9th, 2004 08:09 PM
AChimp
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rorschach
Here! Here!

Chimp, have yourself a pint of stout on me.
Cheers!
Sep 9th, 2004 07:46 PM
kahljorn Anarchy has already been attained, long long ago. Same with "Communism"/"Socialism" to an extant.
Sep 9th, 2004 06:36 PM
Preechr Communism=Submission=Authoritarian

I do read, and have read, and will continue.

I have read many words typed in various efforts to make Communism appear to be what it's just not. If you feel like you can (or have to) cut and paste something that's so superior to what I have read (and remained unconvinced by) knock yourself out.

On second thought, nevermind. I guess I was only trolling anyway. I don't really have any interest in vain attempts to convince the unconvinceable. Believe what you wish with my blessings.

...No takers on the Capitalism~=Communism thing?
Sep 9th, 2004 04:37 PM
kellychaos Small communal living didn't work on the Animal Farm. There are pigs everywhere, I tell ya ... even in small groups.
Sep 9th, 2004 09:23 AM
Helm Communism, even in the best case creates a very large and complex state goverment, and obviously any anarchist will argue that this creates the base for totalitarianism. I will not argue against this. I will merely regutitate Bakunin Cropotkin (sp? hey I read them in greek) etc by saying that this complex state machine is needed for a duration to create the foundation for the gradual dissasembly of the national state as a political force and the reenforcement of it as an executional force. Anyway, yeah what Zhukov said. Go read.
Sep 9th, 2004 09:06 AM
Zhukov
Quote:
communism, which in any practical terms or in any actual application IS authoritarian PRIMARILY
I know exactly what you mean. Not that I agree with you, it's just I hear it so often, so I know what you mean. Communism is not authoritarian, Stalinism, however, is. That is the mistake you are making, that is your fault. Fix please!

Socialism is authoritarian, and a revolution is the most authoritarian thing there can be, but Communism is a stateless society. An anarchist society. The only authority for you is yourself.

It's a point that has been defended better by people other than me, so I implore you to not force me to copy and paste. Please.

Quote:
it's not so much politics, so much as simply living; in the purest most efficient form.
Word.
Sep 9th, 2004 01:05 AM
kahljorn Yes, but only if you make a required donation fee of 600 dollars.

it's not so much politics, so much as simply living; in the purest most efficient form.
Sep 8th, 2004 11:08 PM
Preechr YES. LET'S.

They are both political in nature, so I will now agree that you are correct. They also both involve humans, such as us, here on Earth, so I will agree with you yet again.

Tribes. Yes. That, too. WOOT.

That's three times I have agreed with you. Now can I be accepted into your smart & edumucated person club?
Sep 8th, 2004 10:49 PM
kahljorn There's alot of books on anarchy, let's all go read them and understand.

Like i said, tribes. It's all in the tribes. Small commune groups, communism/sociology to the effect that, within the tribe, each person has a role. A shaman, a bard, a hunter, a cook, a fishermen and a gatherer. Farmers... etc.

Damn, read what i posted. It explains it all in intelligent terminology.
Sep 8th, 2004 10:01 PM
Preechr So NOT right!

I mean, to say "right" there is soooo wrong. I'm no anarchist, but there is no credible correlation between communism, which in any practical terms or in any actual application IS authoritarian PRIMARILY, and anarchy.

If that's not enough to warrant a flame from Zhukov then I'll go so far to posit that communism and capitalism are more the same in extreme than anything, forming the third dimension in the political universe.
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