|
||||||
| FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
Topic Review (Newest First)
|
| Mar 28th, 2003 12:59 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
At least they were admitting their extremist platform and sticking to it. I have no problem with that (okay I actually do, but that's another story, and within their rights to have such an opinion). At least people know what they're all about and can make an educated choice about them without being duped. No just cause requires deception. |
|
| Mar 28th, 2003 08:40 AM | ||
| VinceZeb | speaking of the grand *cough*bullshitleftistpropaganda* site indymedia. Why did sf.indymedia.org have that nice picture with the anarchist people holding up the cute sign "We support our troops who shoot their officers?" Was that something to be truly proud of enough to put on a site? | |
| Mar 27th, 2003 06:00 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
Am I cynical or am I concerned? It's not "diversity" when people are hiding their real platforms, and posing as unified while duping their followers, herding them like sheep. Once again... who the hell are M27 ? Why is it negative to question this? I think it's a lot more negative to go on message boards and defend their actions without even knowing. You at least seem like you have a handle on who's who in the anarchy world.... but there are a lot of people reading Indymedia that don't seem to give a shit. You mentioned being involved in Indymedia. Why are they publicizing actions by groups in guises that only vaguely represent themselves or some form of a public platform? Why are Indymedia allowing other groups to misrepresent their message and co-opt their service? I've never seen them publish up to the minute reports for White militia marches. They do curate their content on some level. I'll say it again - Not in Our name features "names" that do obviously support some violence in the Middle East if it fits within their personal agendas, but that's a contradiction to their seemingly innocent Statement of purpose. It's not innocent at all, It's manipulative. It's sick, and it's corrupt. Admonishing you by your associations simply because you did it for a good cause doesn't cut it. Sometimes standing on the side lines is the most responsible thing to do. |
|
| Mar 27th, 2003 03:44 PM | ||
| theapportioner |
I don't deny that there are idiots. But here is where you are wrong. The great characteristic of the "leftist" movement today is its diversity. A hodge-podge of ideas that, when one weaves together a unifying narrative, reveals extensive contradictions. But only by assuming its message to be unified. And that is a fatal assumption. Your criticisms are, for the most part, valid. However, you can sit on the side and complain bitterly, or choose the side (since things are polarized this way these days) that, in the most general terms, you agree more with, and try to change things from within. Cynicism and negativity isn't any better. Think about that. |
|
| Mar 27th, 2003 03:25 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
No. The high horse is an exlusionary self righteous peace movement that succombs to the very priviledged, capatilist, violent and imperialist lifestyles they claim to stand against. Who gives a fuck about Mother Theresa. It's starting to seem like the current peace movement is nothing but a self help group with pervish motives. Also - learn your modern revolutionary history before you make statements like that.... I know a lot of Black Panthers that tear up for their wrong doings and irresponsibility....and a lot of misguided kids who danced around making fork symbols in front of a giant Charlie Manson photo that are ashamed they didn't know better. |
|
| Mar 27th, 2003 02:51 PM | ||
| theapportioner | Not even Mother Teresa had clean hands, so get off your damn high horse. Moral infallibility is worthless, even "unclean", if you don't do anything to stop the greater evils. | |
| Mar 27th, 2003 02:35 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
I would and all but something tells me all the soap in the world couldn't wash your own hands clean. Besides - I'm what they call "pro-Israel" and believe in a Middle East co-existance (gasp!) .... and apparently that's not the type of peace the current Left wants to see. |
|
| Mar 27th, 2003 02:06 PM | ||
| theapportioner | Wanna start one? I'll help out. | |
| Mar 27th, 2003 12:09 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
Ok so here's another one. I have friends taking part in todays M27 acts of civil disobediance. The organization calls themselves an "ad hoc" group on their website, without any trace of their background or affiliations. There is virtually no information on who M27 even are. I know, I know.... anarchy. Woo. A lot of people are passionate and want to protest the war, and that's fine, but mystery orgnizations only further my concerns here. If the cause is honorable, and the organizers are reputable...then why hide? You can't tell me there isn't SOME organization out there with the ability to organize and unite a movement that doesn't have blood on their hands, and isn't afraid to admit who they are. What the fuck is going on here??????? |
|
| Mar 25th, 2003 08:48 PM | ||
| theapportioner | No pretensions here -- I've already made that clear several times. | |
| Mar 25th, 2003 08:40 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx | If you're empowering an idiotic yet ultimately insignificant organization that supports brutal dictators then you're naive to pretend you're just supporting the anti-war movement. | |
| Mar 25th, 2003 07:18 PM | ||
| Anonymous |
Quote:
|
|
| Mar 25th, 2003 07:12 PM | ||
| theapportioner |
Dude, As I said, the NYC protests are organized by United for Peace and Justice, NOT ANSWER. I don't support their agenda, wouldn't donate any money towards the organization, and frankly, find their cries of "long live the intifada blah blah blah" very disturbing. You pick the lesser of two evils, in this case Bush, or ANSWER. Bush and co. are presently a quadrillion times more powerful than the Worker's World Party, and a quadrillion times more dangerous. Is giving public exposure to the anti-war movement less important than somewhat empowering an idiotic yet ultimately insignificant organization that supports brutal dictators? It depends on your morals, I guess. FYI, the Indymedia project that I'm a part of is working on a expose of the organization and others (NION was created by some other communist party, and I heard that UPJ is a front for some other radical organization). |
|
| Mar 25th, 2003 06:08 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx | Hey aport. You sound like a true blue idiot. I went by the protest so my criticism, if any, would be based on something...and the fact is I didn't find anything that offended me. Still it's attitudes like yours that alienate a lot of people like me who do not and will not go because the idea of supporting a bad organization for a good cause is idiotic. I mean gosh, why is that the people with the scary agenda have suceeded in organizing your movement in ways that others haven't. Doesn't that scare you ???? Your attitude just seems to be "hey dude, who cares, don't go then" .... and that says more about you then you'll ever realize. I'm not saying peple should stop protesting... I'm saying people should make sure the people organizing these marches have pure intentions without hidden agendas...and you should care. | |
| Mar 25th, 2003 04:06 PM | ||
| theapportioner |
If it bothers you enough, then don't go, or protest in some other way. For me, the primary objective of an anti-war protest is just that -- to protest the war. The organizers' ideologies, or for that matter viewpoints that some of the protesters themselves promulgate, are secondary. I don't particularly care for anarchism say, or some religious organization that opposes war, but they can promote themselves if they want to. Quote:
|
|
| Mar 25th, 2003 01:52 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx | .... | |
| Mar 25th, 2003 01:23 PM | ||
| VinceZeb | You may have misunderstood my statement. The item that I wanted you to view was not the left's critique of its own, but the people who protest and by proxy support the WWP and give it credability with its actions. I do hope that clears any misunderstandings up. | |
| Mar 25th, 2003 01:16 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx | vince - that's another debate entirely. Plenty of Conservative movements have been coopted in their own right, including the current "pro-war" movement. I'm concerned about one specific leftist group, and it's partners... NOT debating the lefts ability to critique their own. | |
| Mar 25th, 2003 01:13 PM | ||
| VinceZeb | ABCD, wouldnt you agree then with the statement that the majority of the protestors are just doing it because 1) the don't like war no matter what, 2) they just want to seem "cool" or 3) they hate Bush? The fact that the people that are marching don't have an idea of WHO SUPPORTS the marches proves a lot. Like that most of these people are feeding off emotion and skewed fews instead of the facts (as we would believe) that are given by various sources? I would hope to believe if some of the grand protestors would actually find out who supports their marches, that they would think twice about going to these sponsored marches, since by proxy they would be supporing an Communist front organization and think-tank? | |
| Mar 25th, 2003 01:01 PM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
How is that even related to someone walking in line in front of a banner for an organization that doesn't represent their own beliefs???? Sounds irresponsible. So you're saying ANSWER had NO involvement in coordinating last weekends regional rallies aside from marching in them? |
|
| Mar 25th, 2003 12:41 PM | ||
| VinceZeb |
You have just opened up the forum for discussion on the fatal flaw of Democrats and liberals in general when it comes to a republican and conseratives. Liberals, for the most part, are really awful when it comes to self-cratieqing their own. Especially in a public way. It seems that if you are associated as liberal, that no matter how much an ass a fellow liberal makes of himself, you have to applaud his ideas and so forth. Conseratives on the other hand, will nail anyone on the radical front. David Duke tried to run as a Republican in 92 for govenor (I believe), everyone tore him a new one on the conserative front. Pat Buchanan decided to become the paleo-conserative, everyone told him to step off. We, as conseratives, are better of making sure our own fellow self-proclaimed "conseratives" are critized when they something that is idiotic, racists, evil, etc. Liberals seem to give liberals a free pass when it comes to the insanity of the things some of them do. I would go on, but I'm kinda busy, so if my post looks a bit sloppy, I hope you will understand. |
|
| Mar 25th, 2003 12:09 PM | ||
| theapportioner |
The New York City protests are organized by United For Justice and Peace, a different organization. ANSWER does the DC protests, and other smaller ones. On the allegiance thing, you just have to exercise sound judgement, and it's up to you to decide whether the cons outweigh the pros. On the flip side, one could say that by voting Republican one is aligning with various unsavory characters -- racists et al. A movement -should- be self-critical, but not to the point that it breaks down into this or that dispute. You'd have no mobilization at all if that happened. |
|
| Mar 25th, 2003 11:38 AM | ||
| VinceZeb | This has something to do with it, but I just downloaded and watched SOAD's new video. Wow, that was propaganda not supported by facts BIG Time. some looks of answer, and a good unedited shot of a USSR flag being waved. I guess SOAD and Michael Moore were paying respect to their masters. | |
| Mar 25th, 2003 11:12 AM | ||
| Abcdxxxx |
Hasn't history taught us that aligning yourself with questionable organizations for the sake of "unity" and "cohesion" gets us in trouble? Isn't it hypcrotical for such a politicaly aware movement to comprimise their own beliefs because someone's good at organizing things? When Conservatives say protesters are supporting Saddam by marching...well we know that's silly... but it adds some credibility when the organizers of the march sure as hell do, right???? If ANSWER has ties to various agendas and foriegn governments, then isn't the wild assertions that American protestors are being used as pawns a little closer to reality ? Conservatives have already made comments that these events are being funded and organized with the assistance of nations that have the motivation to seed dissent in our country. I'm not saying there isn't plenty of legit dissent and outrage going around... but this is fucking SCARY. Certainly the protest I witnessed in NYC on Saturday was a beautifull thing... but I doubt many in that crowd knew much about ANSWER (and I am under the impression they were the main organizers of that rally, right?). |
|
| Mar 25th, 2003 12:13 AM | ||
| VinceZeb | I am glad I am not the only one that sees through their crap. There were some reports that Saddam had infiltrated some of their groups with people, but I doubt that happened. Even thought it isnt in the realm of fantasy. | |
| This thread has more than 25 replies. Click here to review the whole thread. | ||
