Religious Evolution
 

Why does it seem that the early God(s) seem to have so much more human qualities (ex: Greek gods, vengeful Christian God that spoke from the heavens, ec) and that Heaven (or whatever paradise pertains) seemed like it was supposed to be a real, concreate place. Nowadays, however, if you talk to educated religious leaders, their talk of God and Heaven seems more metaphysical and they'll tell you, especially in Judaism and Christianity, that many parts of the Bible were supposed to be parables designed to teach and were not intended to be taken so literally. Did the people at that time deem them to be parables or did they truly see the miracles? ... or were the miracles things they saw in nature and simply didn't understand. If the miracles truly did exist, why haven't we seen any mountains talking lately? Just sayin'

Ill explain it in my own opinion the best I can.


As we get further and further away from a point in time, a place in time, etc., we tend to have our reality distorted. Look at Easter, Christmas, Memorial Day, etc. Also, words have lost meaning in our world. If you go by what was said in newspapers, ancient scripts and other such items, Beowulf was a real event. It was altered of course to make a better story, but there is a good analysis that it really was somewhat true. The word for Dinosaur is taken from a looser version of the word "Dragon".

I believe people truly saw the miracles back then. But as with everything, once time creeps on, people forget or try to rationalize it with something they believe is "concrete", like science. I mean, let's face it, if God showed up today and said that our comprehenion of reality based on our "science" was incorrect, then it would have to be incorrect because well... he is God. The religious types of our day are becoming more P.C. in trying to accomidate more people into the faith by saying that we shouldn't take the Bible at face value and there were fables and blah blah blah. People are even trying to change the way Jesus talked in the Bible, which if these people ever read the Bible, they would see that the last paragraph in the Bible is like the ultimate copyright law.


And miracles have happend before in modern history, we just try to talk them off like it can be explained with science, like the people who recieved a vision of the Virgin Mary back in the mid 20th century.

This subject takes a lot more time and effor that I can put into it right now, but I hope you can look through my ramblings and see where I am trying to go with it. Unless a need for God arises to intervene in human affairs, He usually steps away and lets us do the work. And besides, the Bible spans a time of thousands of years. So that doesn't mean that miracles happened every day; they just happened when they were necessary.

It amuses me that as science reveals more relgion shrinks.

VOR, for a while it has been the other way around.

In exact reverse proportion? In other words, are they actually the same thing on opposite sides of an equation? Actually, as science grows and new, more complicated theories evolve, they only find that there's yet more that remains constantly beyond their grasp be it at the microscopic or the macroscopic level. Rather than belittle my image of God, these truths only inspire more awe in how great and adaptive the intricacies of the universe are.

Vinth, you gave me the giggles. :)

Vinth, you seem to enjoy writing stories about your life, so what makes you think that people X number of thousand years ago didn't like writing stories?

If you go by what was said in ancient scripts and other such items, you would end up thinking that you really would fall off the edge of the Earth if you sailed too far. Is falling off the world a real event?

Um, it's actually derived from Greek and Latin for "terrible lizard", not "dragon." I suppose, though, that you could interpret "terrible lizard" as a euphemism for "dragon," but the basis is unlikely since the term "dinosaur" has only been around for a little over 100 years.

And, are you actually suggesting that humans and dinosaurs lived together?

If "God" showed up, there would be no way to prove that he was God and not an alien from a really advanced civlization. You just can't do it.

What a convenient explanation for why God never shows up anymore. "God is telling us that we can handle it! Yay!" :blah

Yes but every time some scientific theory comes along that contradicts what is taught in religion some group (see evolutionary creationists) will take up that theory into their religion taking away some of the awe involved in religion. So as science reveals more religion will lose some of its power. Remember 60 years ago the consent amoung christians was that the earth was only 35,000 years or so old. (see scopes monkey trial)

Hegel once said: "Truth is infinite: its finiteness is its denial."

Scientists realise that the more they figure out about the world, the more the world will produce something that needs figuring out. They realise that these things will never be out of their grasp for long.

The religious types are indeed becoming more PC, they are forced to flow with science, lest they be washed away. Instead of sticking with the originals, religious types evolve and change depending on society as it is at the moment. In the future, the bible may be taken as simply a nice story, or something to aspire to, and it will be the priests anf cardinals asserting this, for they don't want to lose their place in the world. Then again, if something profound changes the way the world is going at the moment - like their god poking it's head in - it will be the religious leaders who will denounce the 'modern' view of religion, and change to to suit the situation, namely, the original stuff.

I don't mean to upset anyone, but I think religion is the fad that never dies. Man has roughly the same effect on religion as it has on him.

I was just thinking ( I guess poetically) that as the value of science grows to infinity in my "equation", religion will dwindle to zero. We will then find out that science, which comes from man and actually "is" man, is infinite. Beautiful! :)

We should be like Kryptonians and worship science as our God. ;)

I'll be pissed if I go to Hell and I see Nietzche laughing his ass off at me! >:

Vince: Jesus talked in the Bible, which if these people ever read the Bible, they would see that the last paragraph in the Bible is like the ultimate copyright law.

That afterword was written exclusively referring to the book of Revelations. "This book" of which John of Patmos speaks couldn't possibly refer to the bible as a whole because when he wrote it the ecumenical councils were centuries away from determing what constitutes scripture. I can't imagine any Catholic boy stepping foot into a seminary without knowing that.

I think dinosaur actually means "Thunder lizard", Achimp. "terrible lizard" is the translation they teach to little kids for "tyranosaurus rex" because they don't know what tyrant means.

this thread disgusts me.

we are most probably living in another Age of Enlightenment and religion is suffering for it. it will eventually come full circle.

To go back to topic, religion has become more abstract simply because science has filled in its place. Religion was developed to explain the unknown. The mechanism for this was mythology, by which you could "rationalize" phenomenon like the rising sun or lightning by relating it to the human experience, i.e. creating deific characters quite similar to ourselves.

Science comes in and performs the normal function of explaining life, so religion reverts to providing purpose: answering "why?" instead of "how?" Naturally, this leaves little room for mythology. Besides, arguments such as the means of justification seem more pertinent to the immortal soul than do the events of Paradise Lost. In the case of Judeo-Christianity, the Hexammeron creation story is comprised almost entirely of mythological stories stolen from other Semitic cultures. Per credo, I can say that these stories became "inspired" when they were consolidated under one pen by Moses, and thus from them we may derive some spiritual relevance. But to me, the idea that we should believe in a six-day creation is simply idiotic.

Would it be fair to say that polytheistic mythologies are more "colorful" (in that the gods were more humanly fallible), because they were written more by poets than priests? I can imagine they had a great deal of influence in their time simply because their stories would've made for the height of entertainment.

Well, sethomas, I believe that anyone that thinks we are a decendant from a fucking money is an idiot.

I don't know of any evolutionary theory that says we're "decendant from a fucking money," so I think you're all by yourself on that issue. If you're showing your dismay with people who realize that we have common ancestors with monkeys, well, John Paul II would be insulted that you think he's an idiot.

Winston, you're forgetting that Vinth believes in Vatican I! Not II! I!

COME SEE THE BIGGEST RELGIOUS EVENT OF THE SUMMER, VATICAN III, THIS SUNDAY, SUNDAY, SUNDAY!!!!

Clearly, some humans haven't evolved from monkeys at all. Case in point, our resident simpleton, Vince.

Oh man, thats real funny. I'm sorry if I don't believe in the fact that humans are nothing more than animals. Some of the greatest men in history thought were were nothing special. Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Marx... those great people.

:lol

I laugh at your attempt to tack morality to the issue of evolution, Vinth.

Laugh all you want. The links are there.

Yep... links in one, two, three and... oh yeah, four people that you listed. Not to mention the fact that there dozens of other links between those guys and other variables. :blah

How many millions support evolution without believing in genocide, hmm?

Perhaps we should judge Christianity based on its actions in the Crusades? The Inquisition? How about the colonization of America? There are links between God and extreme violence there, too. :|

Oh, wait... not all Catholics have to believe the same thing. Right.

"I believe that anyone that thinks we are a decendant from a fucking money is an idiot."
-Vinth.

Huh. I believe anyone who uses the word descendant when they mean descended is an idiot.

"Oh, Oh! I wath juth typing fatht, Jewy jew jew! Aren't you too busy being Jewish to do not jew things you jew?"
-Vinth

So seriously. You know yopu had the wrong word, it was just a mistake?

"JEW! YOU ARE JEWISH, JEW! YOU DO THINGS THAT A JEW WOULD DO, EVEN BAD THINGS THAT RE JEWISH ARE YOU DOING JEW-JEW! I WILL HAVE A JISM ON YOUR FACE!"
-Vinth

Uhm... I... Know what? Skip it.

'" NO! Skip you jewishness! Bagel! Ha! I said Bagel! Mein Penith ith big!"
-Vinth

There are so many "borrowings" from other cultures that show up Christianity to be a conglomerate of other various culture's religions. In Greek mythology, all land dwellers were seen to be of evil character/traits (Re: Eden and the snake). Cloven-hooved animals were viewed as tricksters and barbarians (Re: Satan, often depicted as cloven-hooved, is the "Father Of Lies"). Hades is entered through an opening in the earth and is a fiery pit of evil(Re: Hell). Gods are high on Mount Olympus (Re: Heaven is in the sky). I can find links to back up my assertions but what's the point when the similarities are so obvious and more than likely something you've noticed before. That's why I named the thread "Religious Evolution" as monotheism seems to be, more or less, a means to compile and streamline many of the same ideas found in polytheistic cultures. How can one degrade the people who once practiced polytheistic theology to a culture of barbarians when they incorporate some of the ideas they ridicule in their very own monotheistic religion?

Whatever you say, Max.


Achimp, please. If you can't see the connections I am not going to hold your fucking hand.

Ok, Kelly, why cant montheism be the first and then that is what influenced Greek culture?

It could. Why couldn't it be the other way around?

Vinth, you boob, I didn't say that there weren't any connections, I was pointing out that if you're going to treat evolution/science as bad because of the interpretations that certain people have made, then there's no reason why I can't treat your religion the same.

The links you claim are only between certain people and their interpretations of specific ideologies.

I don't think you CAN explain your position. You're just spouting off the stuff that other people have come up with.

Consider the fact that Greek mythology was an oral religion while Christianisty stems from the Word of the Bible. Which do you think is older?

Consider the fact that Ancient Greece was in its prime 400 centuries before Christianity.

And Judaism was 10000 years before Christanity.

Is it just a coincidence that the evil snake from eden was EVIL, ssimply because he promised intelect?

Yes, Vinth, Judaism has been around for a long time. Good boy.

Now please explain how monotheism leads to polytheism.

Religion
 

All roads lead to the same place.

Re: Religion
 

Damn you and your pragmatic insight. I want to argue! :)

I don't believe that for a minute, Vibe.

What's the purpose of religion to you, Vince?

God and Stuff
 

Then why are the stories so similar Vince?
I mean don't you think that environment and culture play a part in how God is viewed.

Or

Don't you think God would have portrayed himself in a way a particular culture would understand?

Religion is just the way God wants us to live our life and the ways we should show thanks for what He has given us. It teachers rules and morality. Not all religions are equal or the same. It is factually incorrect.

So, uhh... why aren't all religions equal? Is it because yours is the only "correct" one? That's a pretty narrow view, Vinth. :lol

Um
 

That in fact makes them the same. It is only human interpretation that makes them different.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
God is God no matter what name you try to pin on it.

The argument boils down to:

"My religion is true because it says so in the holy book of my religion"

The correlation is

"My take on my religion is true because that's my understanding of what it says in the holy book of my religion. Other's people's take on what it says is wrong, because it's not te same as my take"


It's EXACTLY the same argument made by every fundamentalist of every religion there has ever been. Maybe one of those thousands of religions actually was right and everyone else is wrong. People will THINK they're right, but will only ever know for sure once they're dead. Which I think is kind of charming and proof of God's sense of humor.

PS: "Im NOT a Fundamentalist because I'm RIGHT! It says so in my holy BOOK which was written by GOD and everyone else who says they are right because their book was written by god is a fucking Fundamentalist!"
-Clambake

I believe Jesus Christ (the One who Max Burbank's decendants murdered) is the Son of God. Jesus said the only way to Heaven was through Him. Kinda have to believe what the guy says if you think He is the Son of God.

So wait...you're saying that Max Burbank's grandchildren, or great grandchildren, or somewhere down the line murdered Christ...IN THE FUTURE???

What the FUCK are you smoking??

By the way, it wasn't Burbank's people who killed Christ. It was YOUR people who killed him. And I've read a book or two about it, so I'm pretty sure it was in the past, which would make it your ancestors (lookie!!! a new word!!), not descendants.

God
 

Okay Vince -

But if you were born into an African tribe that had no contact with the outside world, don't you think that your view of God would be a bit different? And don't you think that God would make itself known to that tribe in a way they would understand? And wouldn't you, if you followed God's rules for the tribe, be allowed into that great tribe in the sky when you died?

I believe Jesus was just a nutter who came up with a few good ideas. Specifically, how to get people to believe him.

I believe that Christ was who he said he was.

But I also don't believe that Christianity has exclusive rights on "THE TRUTH", and I'm inclined to believe that, as Vibe said it, "all roads lead to the same place". That's a simplification, but I believe there is a lot of wisdom in it.

Bake your noodle on that one, Vince.

Oh, but it's easy. You can just tell me I'm not a true Christian and then you don't HAVE to think about it.

Relgion are temporal and subjective beliefs about morals, rules, ect that follow the needs of the given culture. Cultures are different and subject to change, therefore religions are different and subject to change.

DONT NOBODY TELL VINTH THAT JESUS WAS A JEW B/C I'M SURE VINTHTH JESUS LIKES BIGOTRY AND STEREOTYPING

God
 

Thanks Proto

It is an over simplification, but in some cases it is better to leave things simple because the more you try to explain it the more convoluted it gets. And the basic concept often gets clouded by your own opinion. Kind of a Buddhist concept.

Face it, what Jesus taught was probably pretty simple too. But too much explanation of some very simple concepts and we have one of the most convoluted, clouded by opinion books in the world.

WOW
 

Very nice!

Thanks. I was only repeating what others already said in a different way, though. :)

I meant no insult, Vibe. There is often great wisdom in simplicity. I just didn't want to paint myself completely into a corner since I don't think that Mother Theresa and someone who goes around killing babies are necessarily going to find themselves at the same end point of the path. But in a general way, yes, I think that all religions more or less achieve the same end goal.

LOL
 

I know you didn't. I apreciate the fact that you seem to always understand what I am saying.

It is my sincere hope that we can let go of religion and whorship the fact that we are alive. Isn't existing enough? Why do we have to go looking for a reason to be alive? Religion can come to no good end.

Now I am not saying that we should throw out all religious teachings, just that we should recognise them for what they are products of MANS innovation and desire to know.

Now I am not naive, I know that this will never happen. People just get too attached to there deities. People kill for there deities. People die for there deities. This is why religion is inherently evil.


P.S. Peanut butter and chocolate cream oreos kick so much ass.

LOOK OUT! ITH MY CHRITHT KILLING DETHENDANTS! THEY'RE BUILDING A TIME MATHINE!

Max, it would be just like the terminator.

I have fantastic ideas for religion. Simplicity and love, and shit. I just wish they'd take off.

so basically it's "My views are right, religion is wrong. People with faith are all misled fools." I would very much like to give you the most savage beating of your life.

Shit, Vinth. You've resorted to hacking Italian's account now? >:

People kill for there deities. People die for there deities. This is why religion is inherently evil.

You have to admit, that's a huge fucking jump of logic. The actions of the minority do not reflect a flaw in the system, it represents an error in human nature itself. Unless you are suggesting a godless society would be pure of violent crimes, you make no good point I would expect better from one with such a pretentious title.

Furthermore, the cases in which murder happens for reasons of faith are extremely rare, and normally are associated strictly with the occult. Take the most obvious examples. The Crusades had practically nothing to do with religion. The degree to which Urban II's proclamation "Deus vult" was manipulated out of his hands makes evident that an economic and political struggle between Europe and the Middle East was inevitable, and the arbitrary slaughter in Constantinople during the first campaign makes obvious the fact that religion was utterly a non-issue. Otherwise, the pacts between the Templars and the Hashishens would have been impossible.

The Inquisition, though quite unsavory in itself, was a sociological safety valve forged by political conservativism. This should be obvious from the fact that executions could ONLY be administered by the State, as pre-existing cannon law forbade the clergy from spilling any blood. The English Inquisition executed Joan of Arc because they were terrified of her success. The French Inquisition executed witches and Cathars because public unrest demanded scapegoats for the plague and other travesties. The Spanish Inquisition executed Jews because the nobility was sick of their economic power. The Italian Inquisition executed Bruno because his eccentricity was fraying the scientific community of its integrity. None of these death's were justified, but NONE of them happened by group one enforcing beliefs upon group two.

Your tone also spoke lowly of the willingness to die for one's beliefs. It seems obvious to me that if you're unwilling to die for what you truly care about, you are a weak and pathetic being.

oh come now chimp, allow me some indignation before comparing me to vince. im never not to speaking bad as much for now Vince as me.. simple as that enough said?

Yes it is basically "My views are right, religion is wrong. People with fait are all misled fools." Instead of "My views are right, your religion is wrong. People who don't believe in my faith are wrong." I wish that I could lie and say that i take everyones views with equal reverence, but i will be honest and say that i do feel my views are better that everyone elses. Hell that is why they are my views. But i do know that you are entitled to your views and i would never do or say anything to jeopardize that. I was just stating what i think would help humanity the most. I mean, come on, you know you think your views are superior to everyone elses. So please suppress your desire to give me a severe beating.

Come on, tv. By cowering out of a beatdown, you're neglecting a perfectly good chance to make a hypocrite out of him.

Shame you can't have it both ways, you know.

enlighten me winston, how could he have made a hypocrite of me? I would never really want to beat him, despite the sheer arrogance of his idea that all people of faith only perpetuate the worlds problems.

Because of the fact that you don't associate yourself with a religion that espouses itself with violence. By the flavor of your posts, you seem to belong to the Christian Right. If you were a true Italian stereotype, and if memory serves me then you are, you would be Roman Catholic. Beating one's fellow man would be contrary to the Christian paradigms such as "turn the other cheek" and "love thy neighbor," thus making hypocritical any violent means to asserting the rightness of your religion.

I am a Roman Catholic (with faults) and I do try to practice "turning the other cheek." as I said, I would never truly beat, or wish him any harm for that matter. you seem to be nitpicking here, very few are able to follow their respective religious codes to the letter.

I'm no saint, so I wouldn't dare hold anyone to that standard. The jab was originally intended for vox boy.

So, Voice, people who believe in God or have religious faith are fools.... man, you would really hate to see a list of the people who had faith. I'm sure many of them wouldn't qualify as being "fools".

If there is nothing in this life that you believe that is greater than you and you have nothing you would give your life for, then you really are living a pitiful existance. Mankind is not the end all be all of existance. I am sorry to shed some light on the dark hole you live in, but this is the truth. If you believe mankind is the pinnacle of existance or at least the earth, then you can be on the side of druggie porno stars, scientist who haven't seen the sunlight in umpteen years, and frumpy second-rate comedians.

Now, to Sethomas, please do not bring up the whole "turn the other cheek" speech. Have you ever read the Bible? Jesus talked a lot about throwing down in the Good Book. Let's face facts, Jesus was peaceful until it came to His Father or the evils of the world. Then Jesus didn't take no gruff. Jesus told people who didn't follow Him that the afterlife was going to be a very unpleasant experience.

But voice, continue to believe your views are right. See, if you are right, then me and you have gained nothing, but have ventured nothing. If I am right... well, I hope eternity in Hell leaves you with enough time to comtemplate how much of a dumbshit you are.

And trust me, if I wanted to "hack someone's account", I wouldn't hack a 3rd-rate player like IS.

PRROOOOOOFFF!!! >: >:

You know, Vinth, most agnostics/athiests don't think that humans are very special. In fact, I think humans are merely fleshy bags of mostly water. The only thing that separates us from other animals is the fact that we have the ability to create and use technology.

Earth ain't so special, either. It's just a big ol' ball of mud floating through space.

Say... weren't you the one a few threads ago saying that you don't think humans are the same as all other animals?

Wow... he didn't take any guff by giving them a stern lecture. :lol

I hate to break this to you, Vinth, but that's still non-violent. I don't recall reading anything about Jesus promising beat-downs to those who didn't believe in him or threatening to jizz on the face of those who disagreed.

Judging by all the conversations I've had with really religious people, I'm sure that Hell is full of far more interesting people.

what makes me 3rd-rate Vince? the ability to communicate clearly? my habit of only arguing if i feel that i am able to prove my claims? the fact that i don't leave various unsubstantiated rumors hanging over my head?

Well, you certainly do.

Personally, I don't buy into any sort of "higher meaning" or "higher presence" in the world. If there is one (or many), though, it's probably completely out of our comprehension and frankly, doesn't seem to affect us much in our daily life.

Read Camus' "The Myth of Sisyphus." Life, when going purely on the evidence we have around us, pretty much seems an absurd exercise with no pay-off. It's just one big study in excess.

With that said, it's a glorious excess, and I enjoy being alive. I don't need a reason or motivation to live...I'm simply going to just live.

Now THAT'S funny. :lol

Do not question my faith or I will kill you! >:

If there was a God, and humans and the earth were his creation, wouldn't that make humans the pinnacle of existance?

Many of you are neglecting parts of my argument. Let me see if i can clear it up, all i was saying is that if there was no religion, and people truly believed that human life was the most supreme gift ever. Then there would be much less violence and hate in the world. Take a look at Ireland, take a look at the Middle East, a lot of good religion has done there.



Also, why is it that people with faith think that those of us who don't have it are miserable? I am probaly one of the most happy people I know. If that makes any sense.

Northern Ireland is an issue of an imperial power beating down upon a less-than-lucky people. The Catholics hate the Protestants because they are a foreign invasion, simple as that. The Middle East situation is quite comparable. You make no point.

Vince, you don't come close to making a valid point against the starkly non-violent philosophy of Jesus. Jesus believed that judgment belongs to God, not us. You're a Un-Christian fool and complete piece of shit human being for trying to malign his words into something different.

"Jesus didn't take no gruff."
-Vinth

Actually, Vinth, that's a mistranslation. The actual line is, Jesus didn't take no Mcgruff, meaning that he refused to break bread with Crime Dogs.

c'mon vincetta, I'm waiting for an answer here. you can't Google your way out of this one.

If you have to ask why you are a 3rd rate player, then there is no hope for you.

When I was a couple of years younger and thought I had the whole world figured out, I too thought religion was the true root of evil in the world, but that is naive.

Most religions stimulate some excellent human qualities. Unconditional love for your fellow man. Helping those less fortunate in society.

The problem, as has been said (better) by others in this thread, is that human psychology and sociology abuses religion. Whether conscious or unconscious, people make it into a catalyst of their fears and hatred. They read into the religion the way they want to. Then there's politicians and religious leaders throughout history, who've exploited the unifying and compelling power of religion over people to serve their purposes.

A man alone can be very smart. A group of them is much sooner and much more often, very very dumb. That is why someone who sees religion as a personal issue is much more likely to have healthy contacts with people who don't believe or believe differently than someone who feels the need to convert others to his religion in order to prevent them from being damned in the end.

Frankly, it disgusts me when someone states their form of belief online and is abused for it, like it's some kind of weird weakness.

I will assume then that it was all of the above...

so tell me vincey, if you consider yourself more of a politico or "1st-rate player" than me, why oh why do we see threads like:

http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=3896
http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=3898
http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=2920
http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=2104
http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=2765
http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=3618
http://www.i-mockery.net/viewtopic.php?t=3345

you take your political stance from "The O'Reilly Factor," Rush Limbaugh, and NewsMax without ever having an original thought in your fucking head. that is why you are never able to adequately defend yourself in half of the threads on this forum. do you really think your "I was bored" excuse actually fools anyone?

aside from all of this, you are 22 years old...a full college education ahead of me...and I am able to discuss and comprehend rational thought on a level that you could never even dream of.

don't fuck with me vince, it won't hurt me nearly as much as it will you.

WTF! Vinth, quit jerking off and start responding to the points made in this thread rather than popping in like some virtual jack-in-the-box for a random insult. >:

Was it not Jesus who said "Judge not, lest ye be judged"? It always slays me when I see religious people insult people who have the nerve to have original thought. I go to a Catholic school, and I am in the religion class right now. In the book, it speaks of the "evils" of individuality and people thinking for themselves. That is nothing but bullshit. I believe in a higher power, but I also believe that I have the right to do, say, and think whatever the hell I please, even if it goes against the church.

it is difficult to discern how a religious conversation will turn out, it can be quite a volatile topic.

it seems apparent to me now that both sides of the issue are too extreme. people like vox and immortal goat are quite clearly saying that, bottom line, religion is wrong. others, like myself, then do such things as threaten violence to defend religious sensibilities (which i later retracted). humans are simply obstinate, belligerent creatures when anything large, like religion, is involved.

so there, my epiphany.

Theres nothing wrong with religion as a whole. Sure, everything has its faults, since everyone isnt the same, and there seems to be no true one size fits all. Its not nesscessarily religion thats the problem, its people who warp it to their advantage to justify their actions and still wear their "Good Guy Badge". Take the previously said examples of the Crusades and the Inquisition. The true reasons were given in that post, but everyone seems to think that it was religion that caused it. Whose to blame there: religion, or people?

Any doctrin that teachs good values, but can also be constued to violence and hate, is going to cause problems

Think about this little bit of info for a while:

If there were no Crusades, there would have been no WTC attacks.

Reason: The Catholics would not have been able to push the Muslims out of Europe. Muslims would have taken over the world, and we sure as well wouldn't have this conversation right now.

I am truly soory to everyone in this thread who seems to think i am some extreme anti-religion nut. I have nothing against people having religion, and I know that it's people who twist religion that are the ones causing all the problems. My whole point is that without religion the oportunities for these demogouges would be fewer though I'm sure people would still find some cause to act insane for. Now I would like to apologize if I seemed offensive I wouldn't of even expressed my views on this point were that not the topic of the forum. I have many religious friends who don't know my stance on this subject because I never bring it up because i don't want to lose them as friends. Now I think it's ridiculous that they would cease to be my friends just because i happen to have different beliefs than them, but on the other hand as I said before people become too attached to their paticular diety or dieties.

Also I think it would be important to note that i am not truly an atheist I do not disbelieve in the exsitence of any form of a higher being i just don't think any traditional religions to this point have hit its true nature yet, or maybe I am so indoctrinated by the monotheistic dogma that I can't imagine a universe without some kind of god.

The failure to engage in offensive expansive imperilistic action, would of inhibited them from taking defensive action at a later date?...You do know that the Hindues also slowed or stopped Muslem advance. Do you really think that the Muslems would of succeded at taking over the world? Attila failed, Ghengas Khan failed and Adof Hitler failed, so why would they succeed?

Because they're SO MUCH BETTER EQUIPPED than us.

Yeah, Vinth, and what about this? Suppose, just suppose that the infant kal-el's rocket ship had landed in Germany and been found by a young Adolf Hitler instead of the Kents?!? Man, then things would sure be a mess, huh?

Vinth, your stupidity know no bounds. You cannot accurately predict a relation between events 1000 years apart. :lol

Congratulations, Vince! That is the 4th dumbest thing you've ever said! :rave

I just realised something, Vince is a funny man. I just dont know wether he knows it or not. Is he like the 3 stooges, or the actors who've played them?

Nothing I said in that statement was ignorant. Are you that fucking stupid that you can't understand the fact that without the Catholics, the muslims would have controlled Europe, Africa, and much of Asia? That the anglo-saxon types would have been converted or killed. That someone else would have discovered the new world, and the events of the Mayflower, the colonies' revolts, and everything else would have not happened.

Can you all be any more fucking dumb?

Cathlics did nothing to stop Muslims from taking over Africa, so I don't know why they didn't then, if Cathlics were the only ones pushing back the Muslim conquest, I belive the Saraha did more to stop the Muslims from moving south then anything else. Also many regions that the Muslims took over, where majority Muslim, before being invaded!

Vince, you're a complete idiot. The only time the Muslims even tried to invade central Europe was in the campaign against Charles Martel, which took place centuries before the Crusades. Unless you want to talk about the Ottoman siege of Vienna in the mid-1500s, in which case almost all credit should go to the Eastern Orthodox Church. At any rate, that was a full two centuries after the Crusades, and the Church was too wrapped up in the Counter-Reformation to give a shit, and the beligerent forces were too insignificant to pose any threat beyond the Southeastern Holy Roman Empire.

And history would have been better off if the Mayflower never did happen, since the Seperatists were a lot of assholes in the first place.