Listen, all that I'm saying is that if a country is irresponsible enough to choose communism, then it is our duty as the United States to correct them.
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I think our own Secretary of State who encouraged US diplomats to illegally gather info on UN personnel and their foreign constituents should at least be fired. :\ Of course I am a little bias on this topic because I think she is a dumb bitch anyway and that hiring her in the first place was one of the worst things Obama ever did.
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I'm pretty impressed with Pent for looking at the end results. Of course everyone has a different ending, but most people only see what they can immediately put in their greedy little hands, and that is exactly what the world leaders count on.
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Why have transparency of Government anyway? its not like people are smart enough to make use of the information. it'd probably just cause fake internet scandal after fake internet scandal and people would get all worked up about shit that doesn't really matter like, "DID YOU HEAR THE GOVERNMENT KILLED ALL THE PUPPIES IN EGYPT."
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First and foremost, I am enjoying this discussion immensely. A ton of good stuff was said in the last 24 hours and I am sorry I missed out on it till now
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Assange hasn't created an international online spy ring to steal military secrets. All wikileaks is is an avenue for whistle-blowers to get their information out there. You have to understand that before you can judge it. Now, the reason why the leaked information hasn't been put through the standard media avenues is probably because they can't be trusted. I wouldn't trust most news stations or papers, so I can understand if someone would rather go through a website that has been created for that purpose, and isn't run by people with vested interests in government for whatever reasons. The argument that he has created the website with the intention to become famous is just ridiculous. It has been running for years, and he's only in the papers recently. Nobody has heard of anyone else that runs wikileaks; are they in it for fame too? Quote:
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You are young Zhukov, one day when you get older, you will understand the concept of the greater good, as opposed to the idealistic and unrealistic view you take on the world.
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Which brings me to this; these things on Wikileaks, they aren't wikileaks' responsibility? Had wikileaks never been invented these things would never have been posted. Actions have consequence, as I have repeatedly said. You want these whistle blowees to take responsibility for what they wrought, yet you dismiss wikileaks' hand in the issues that will come as a result. Quote:
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I think it's more idealistic to believe that all politicians are always doing their best to serve the people, and that they're best left alone without any scrutiny. I think it's extremely naive to buy into their stories about how wikileaks is actually hurting innocent people, instead of focusing on how world leaders are gambling with thousands of lives in the most cynical way. Surely, all sorts of media and propaganda machines will now brainstorm up heart-breaking stories about witnesses that have been exposed and dissidents on the run and whatnot, but let's look at the big picture. |
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I can't understand what you just said :\ You DO think that the torture of Iraqi civilians by the Iraqi government should have been made public, but the torture of Iraqi's by the US government has to stay secret. Right. Please explain to me how the consequences of A outweigh the consequences of B. Quote:
Here are some leaked documents, and I want you to tell me if it would be better if they were all just left alone and kept classified. Bank Julius Baer: Grand Larceny via Grand Cayman - How the largest private Swiss bank avoids paying tax to the Swiss government The looting of Kenya under President Moi - $3,000,000,000 presidential corruption exposed; swung the Dec 2007 Kenyan election The Monju nuclear reactor leak - Three suppressed videos from Japan's fast breeder reactor Monju revealing the true extent of the 1995 sodium coolant disaster Inside Somalia and the Union of Islamic Courts - Vital strategy documents in the Somali war and a play for Chinese support CIA report into shoring up Afghan war support in Western Europe, 11 Mar 2010 - This classified CIA analysis from March, outlines possible PR-strategies to shore up public support in Germany and France for a continued war in Afghanistan. The Independent: Toxic Shame: Thousands injured in African city, 17 Sep 2009 - Publication of an article originally published in UK newspaper The Independent, but censored from the Independent's website. Secret gag on UK Times preventing publication of Minton report into toxic waste dumping, 16 Sep 2009 How German intelligence infiltrated Focus magazine - Illegal spying on German journalists Stasi still in charge of Stasi files - Suppressed 2007 investigation into infiltration of former Stasi into the Stasi files commission Changes in Guantanamo Bay SOP manual (2003-2004) - Guantanamo Bay's main operations manuals Fallujah jail challenges US - Classified U.S. report into appalling prison conditions in Fallujah Dili investigator called to Canberra as evidence of execution mounts - the Feb 2008 killing of East Timor rebel leader Reinado Como entrenar a escuadrones de la muerte y aplastar revoluciones de El Salvador a Iraq - The U.S. Special Forces manual on how to prop up unpopular government with paramilitaries Claims of molestation resurface for US judo official Report on Shriners raises question of wrongdoing - corruption exposed at 22 U.S. and Canadian children's hospitals. Church of Scientology's 'Operating Thetan' documents leaked online - Scientology's secret, and highly litigated bibles Internet Censorship in Thailand - The secret internet censorship lists of Thailand's military junta Eutelsat suppresses independent Chinese-language TV station NTDTV to satisfy Beijing - French sat provider Eutelsat covertly removed an anti-communist TV channel to satisfy Beijing Whistleblower exposes insider trading program at JP Morgan - Legal insider trading in three easy steps, brought to you by JP Morgan and the SEC http://www.wikileaks.ch/about.html In summing up you are basically saying that Julian Assange is a spy who is just out for fame, rather than any altruistic reasons, and that any crime committed by the worlds governing bodies should stay hidden, especially the US ones, because nobody is going to bring them to justice, and if they did then world stability would fail. If it's not what you are saying, then please sum up in a sentence or to what it IS you are saying. |
Doesn't the government have a right to lie to people?
Is there something in the constitution that says that the government cant lie to people? |
Not that I am aware of. If a government has a right to lie, then I guess a people have a right to find out if they are lying. It's not in the constitution that people don't have a right to find out, is it?
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People really aren't trying to figure anything out though, its like one or two people on the internet
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How many lives were lost because of every event reported on wikileaks combined? Was it half the lives in the holocaust? Was it 10% of the lives? Hell I will go as far as to wager it wasn't even 1% of the lives lost. Playing the holocaust card is both childish and smacks of desperation. I was nice enough to ignore it once but once you accuse me twice of saying I think we should have hidden the holocaust in a transparent effort to make your much lesser view about wikileaks seem like it is on par with the holocaust, I am left with no choice but to call you out for it. You also seem to counter argue that fame without purpose cannot possibly be motivation. Tell that to Michael Lohan, every internet sensation on youtube, or John Goslin. None of these people exactly got rich off of their fame, yet they still are fame hogs. Just because you don't get rich off of something does not mean you do not get famous, and for some people fame in and of itself is a motivation. Maybe he is arrogant, maybe his life's purpose is to cement his name in the history books. All I know is a purely unselfishly motivated person would have simply funneled the information to a media outlet that has integrity. If you look hard enough you can still find an example of journalists who just report the news (Meet the Press is an example of this). If I, an average guy from the middle of the US can find one media outlet that I deem trustworthy, he could have too. He chose, that's right chose, not to take that route and went instead for this whistle blower site. All these examples you listed, Watergate, the Holocaust, etc, have all been exposed by the media. In fact let's look at Watergate for a moment. Notice how you could not for years tell me the real name of Deep Throat. The reason for this is they were altruistic, and not a fame seeker, they wanted a crime reported and went about it the exact way one should go to do so to see justice. There was no look at me moment, there was no whistle blower site, there was nothing but someone quietly reporting a wrong, with no expectation of a reward other then maintaining their anonymity. There's a very sharp contrast between Deep Throat and Assange, one that cannot be denied. Note: I am not convinced Felt (the man who years later claimed to be Deep Throat) is actually telling the truth about him being Deep Throat, but that is another discussion entirely |
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Pent, I don't actually think you understand what wikileaks is doing. Nor do I think you understand what information has been leaked to it. The comparison to the holocaust was an extreme example of things that governments do, and then cover them up and keep the information classified. I wasn't saying that anything the US has done in Iraq, Sth America, Afghanistan, the USA, or wherever is on par with the holocaust. You say that a government has a right to keep things classified if it deems them worthy, well, they thought the mass execution of Jews was something that should be classified, and despite everything when the war was over most Germans didn't know about the death camps. They were kept classified. That is the only comparison that I am making with it. Again, who decides what is kept classified and what isn't? The government? Slightly biased I would say, since they are most likely to cover up their mistakes, crimes, embarrassments and such. Also, dude, you can't just keep calling me young, childish impressionable, idealistic or whatever when you yourself haven't looked into it. A few posts ago you were saying that Assange was personally hacking into US mainframes or whatever and stealing secret military plans, so there really isn't any reason to bust out the insults. Quote:
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The US is not calling him a spy that is stealing military secrets, since if they did so they would have to actually prove it. Why are you so keen to call him a spy and a hacker? In fact THIS is ad hominem. We can't trust wikileaks because Julian Assange is a spy. Quote:
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Zhukov, you already lost this argument because you support a guy named Asshinge.
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Zhukov, you either are willfully ignorant of the fact that fully transparent governments are a bad idea and totally destructive to the social and economic climate, or you simply don't care about consequences, either way, it is clear there is no getting through to you.
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When delivering such fine pearls of wisdom, Pentegarn, you need a fitting emoticon:
:xmas2 |
In conclusion Mr. Speaker, I would like so sum up with the following:
Julian Assange is, at the time of writing and contrary to any unknown evidence, not a spy, nor is he nor Wikileaks associated with spies or any forms of espionage. Rather, he is the public face of a media outlet designed to allow whistle-blowers to safely and anonymously expose their government's behaviour. What is deemed classified by most governments is more often than not considered such to hide criminal behaviour in various forms, rather than because of military secrets etc pertaining to the safety of it's civilians. Government transparency in the near future, while not completely responsible for the destruction of the current social and economic climate, is certainly a step in the right direction for a more civil and just society and a fairer economic climate. A climate where the type of 'classified' torture, espionage, lying, war crimes, tax evasion, environmental destruction and other such actions aren't hidden and aren't accepted. |
if he's not a spy t hen why does he call it wikileaks?
leaks are to spies what leeks are to leek farmers. |
Spies don't leak secrets, they give them to their employers whom keep them secret.
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I never said that spies leak secrets. That's like saying plumbers leak water!
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I've been reading this exchange with great interest.
At the onset, I was deeply suspicious of Mr. Assange and his motives regarding the leaking of "pseudo-sensitive" information that was merely embarrassing to the US Department of State. Then after reading Zhukov and Pentegarn head to head I found myself drawn to the middle ground. Maybe we need a site like this to keep our governments honest with those they are charged with governing. Then this shows up. What better way to sabotage a cause for transparency than to wage a cyberwar. Someone, somewhere has a really bad idea of what constitutes grass-roots support. |
Except for the fact that it's fucking 4-Chan and their band of retarded, misguided Robin Hoods. They don't have anything to do with the official Wiki-leaks. I'm assuming they're just having a hard time staying afloat at the moment. O'course, they'll probably just buddy-up with Pirate Bay or do what they're doing.
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