Rachel Corrie
 

Just wondering if you all are aware of the various discrepencies, and scams involving her death... seems the pro-palestinian movement has taken it upon themselves to use her image for propaganda purposes.... but the circumstances around her tragic death are pretty cloudy.... and the photographs making the rounds are incredibly fake. Anyone want more details?

No need to ask us, since you are already so eager to do so.

No, I'd much rather hear that it was common knowledge so I wouldn't have to bother....but I know a lot of bright people who don't bother using their brains at all.... and you actually have to say "look at these two pictures, do they look like the same bulldozer to you?".

Well, I for one am not terribly interested in poster-people or idol worshipping of any sort (other than a few bands or movie directors) -- barely was aware of the hype, or the controversy surrounding Rachel.

All I know is that a bright, good spirited young woman died a tragic death. Have you come to inform us that she deserved this, or that it was perhaps truly an Arab conspiracy...?

Time for me to display my ignorance, since I don't feel like researching it at this hour. Who is Rachel Corrie and what happened to her?

LOL
 

Must be a red head thing Proto......I don't know either.

Rachel Corrie was an activist in the Middle East. She was killed roughly a month or two ago when a Caterpillar bulldozer ran over her, crushing her skull.

Any expansion upon that information has pretty much become politicized, depending on your slant.

Sad
 

No matter what your slant that is just sad.[/b]

I have seen some argue that she died "supporting terrorism," and the fact that she was pictured burning an American flag also makes her background "suspect." Of course, anyone who would burn an American flag (a piece of paper with it drawn on it), GASP, while Palestinian children look on, MUST be a vile human being!

I can't say whether or not this girl was intentionally killed or not. I can't imagine any human being with even part of a soul doing such a thing. I don't blame the Israeli government for her death, but I find the tactics used by some to demonize her (thus justifying her brutal death) a bit tasteless and appaling.

Kevin - are you really that moronic? what you call "demonization" is the reaction to disprove those that hold her up as a hero...and why isn't she a hero?

Rachel Corrie was taking part in an act of civil disobediance, and was somehow killed by a bulldozer. The tragedy of her death is now being exploited, and while NOTHING takes away from the gravity of this incident there are things that should be known because they change the picture entirely. The house she was "protecting" was empty. It was being used for smuggling guns, and drugs to Egypt, and involved a prostituion ring on what is known as the Philladelphi route http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/0211-3.stm. The Rafah area is the most dangerous neighborhood in the West Bank and Gaza. She was acting as a human shield for a terrorist operation under the guise of a peace keeping mission.

The International Solidarity Movement are the same group that gathered around Arafat while under seige, and also held up negotiations to get the wanted terrorists out of the Church of Nativity. 11 days after the Corrie death, the IDF captured a wanted terrorist, Islamic Jihad's Shadi Sukia known for recruiting children to be suicide bombers, at the ISM office. Their function seems to be aiding and acting as human shields for militants, NOT Palestinian civilians.

Where are the human shields riding on buses protecting Israeli civilians? Where's the campaign in memory of the 14 year old baptist girl from the u.s. who was killed the same week from a suicide bomb?

Finally, there are huge inconsistancies in eyewitness acounts and a disinformation campaign surrounding fake photographs distributed by the ISM through Reuters (who sent the photos out with their credit for some reason) and various websites . http://www.palsolidarity.org/index.php?page=rachel.htm
The text on this page was changed when people caught on that these photos depicted two different bulldozers. The original story ran that these photos were from the crime scene, as a before and after.

There is also the issue of where she died. Some say the hospital. Some say on the scene. There were x-rays taken, and one normally doesn't x-ray a corpse. She died tragically in the hospital from accidental wounds after playing a game of protestor chicken. Her death was not an honorable one, and it wasn't for an honorable cause...yet there are those that want to make her a martyr.

Your link is dead, but on that note, can anyone other than the IDF verify this? Forgive me if I don't take the word of the suspect without question....

Of course she was in a dangerous part of the region, that's why she was there. Human shields who didn't want to be put in dangerous places in Iraq were chastized for showing cowardice. Corrie put her body where her mouth was, and she paid the price for it.

You mean the action that was condemned throughout the world, including by President Bush...?

Were they definitely terrorists? This seemed to be in question, with the priests inside even denying this.


Yes, and they denied knowing this. Sure, you'll dismiss them and assume they are liars. But before you do that out of opinion on the issue, you should actually talk to and meet the people who participate in this organization. I know several, and they are good, moral, honest people, young and old. They don't support terrorism, nor do they support being pawns. Any exploitation against them is due, if anything, to ignorance. But before you assume that they are a front group for terror and "revolution," you should take the time to realize that these are human beings. They don't hate the Jews, they aren't Hamas, they don't want to push anybody into the Sea. Could they be taken advantage of? Of course. But in an area where a man is one bulldozed homeaway from becoming a terrorist himself, how do you differentiate...?

Has the U.S. opened an investigation on her case? That's something they neglected to do for Ms. Corrie.

On the bus issue-- The terrorism enacted against innocent Israeli citizens is unjust and horrid. However, the circumstances are different. The Israeli buses unfortunately have to have an IDF soldier on every bus. This is unfortunate, because the Israelis are accustomed to a free, democratic society where such conditions are not acceptable.

In places like the West Bank, sanction and curfew are apart of every day life. Simply walking outside your house, a simple routine, can result in walking into a crossfire. Soldiers ride buses in Israel because terrorism is unacceptable. ISM activists volunteer to walk with Palestinians, because not only is violence common, it's expected all the time.

One does however x-ray a corpse I would think when the accusation of a crime has been made. Not only would it have served the ISM, it would serve the case of the IDF to likewise have her corpse x-rayed.

Not honorable to you because the ISM is a terrorist front group. Not a martyr to you because you disagree with her cause. Thus the politicization I mentioned upon comes into play.

I already said I can't say one way or another. Maybe this is a tragic case of wrong place, wrong time. Either way, there has been a clear attempt to smear her as a violent supporter of terrorism. Anyone who knew her, or read about her life, would know this to be untrue.

No Kevin, I care about the image that has been created for her upon her death...the one of a human shield poster child. HER DEATH *WAS* POLITICAL!!!!! Ask your friends what's honorable about the discrepencies in the photographs on their website? What's honorable about lying and forgeries? What's honorable about having your friends publish the photos of your cracked open head on a website? Maybe it's honorable if you believe she went there to die, or ready to die...but for what cause? Peace? Are you teaching peace when you lead young school children into a symbolic burning of the American and Israeli flag? it's her right, but it's not a gesture of coexistance. She was quoted as saying what a beautiful thing it was to sucide bomb. You've done a piss poor job of defending these people. Their version of peace is discriminatory!

You're wrong. The White House has already pledged they will follow up with an investigation, and Israel has already started one of their own. (and yes Israel has punished soldiers that acted out in the past). Has there been a single investigation on the Americans that have died at the hands of suicide bombs? Nope. Jewish life is apparently cheap. Has there ever been a conclusive investigation for the US diplomat killed at the hands of Arafat, who the ISM acted as human shields to defend ??

Also - when you speak of the priests inside the Church of Nativity you're talking about different fueding factions who all have their own political agendas. The ISM were described as drinking and defacing the church. They wouldn't leave even after negotiations were settled. They were acting as human shield not to accused terrorists, but to CONVICTED terrorists that were supposed to be in Palestinian jails under PA jurisdiction...but instead they were out organizing more acts of violence. These were the terrorists that were extradited, while the rest went free.

It's false to call them a peace group. They support "militants" and acts of violence on civilians... they support and shield those who hold the Palestinian society hostage. If they don't realize this they should get the fuck out of there. A pawn IS a pawn. Who cares how naive they are. "Ooops who knew that guy in our office was teaching children to blow themselves up? We want peace, we swear". It's bullshit.

The truth is most pro-Israel supporters are horribly saddened by this event. And all the while, the ISM continues to encourage misguided young people from around the world, like Rachel Corrie, to spend time in the Middle East providing cover for terrorists.
Bring on the inquiry.

(I might be wrong but I thought you do an autopsy on a corpse not an x-ray)

http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/0211-3.stm

This predates the Corrie incident by nearly a month. The tunnels in Rafah have been widely reported. Palestinian Rafah and Egyptian Rafah are seperated by a fence, and there are around twenty tunnels that seperate them. 50% of the total daily shooting attacks and roadside bombs come from Rafah, and it's rarely reported by the press at all because it's simply just a warzone ... not many civilians populate this area...and whatever civilians have populated the area are held hostage living within an operation to smuggle various illegal items to and from the Muslim Brotherhood. The fighting in this area isn't so much because of any "Free palestine" movement... but out of desperation to keep the tunnels open so they can get paid.

Abcd is making kevin *Gasph* actually have to answer questions instead of trying to look intelligent! This ought to be fun to watch.

Shall I assume that you're bringing an economy sized bag of Cheetos to the event?

http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=56078

after blowing up those images it looks like the shovel color difference could be from lighting.. i suspect those lights on top raise and lower with the bucket.. if these are the case its just angle and timing that make the bulldozer pictures look fake..

Maybe Rachel didnt know who the hell lived in those homes but that they were illegally being dozed over so was there with others out of principal.

i say use the event to show the issues as much as possible.. dont let her death be in vain

The exploitative actions have NOTHING to do with the tragedy of her death. I didn't say I have ANY problems with the IDF making a cae for themselves in their own defense, what I DO oppose is the attempt by SOME to demonize her character in order to justify her horrible death.

Speaking of that, what is wrong with publishing photos of her corpse? Do people wishing to show the gravity and horror of terrorism in Israel not show images of victimes from Palestinian bombings?? Are these "dishonorable" actions, or an attempt to make people SEE the horror involved in these actions....?

This was an action she did on her own, as her RIGHT. This however was not her JOB. Her job entailed paper work, coordinating meals, keeping records, etc. etc.

This girl went over there to help a struggling people. Whether or not you agree with her political perspective on the matter is your choice, I probably wouldn't agree with her completely, either. The fact of the matter is however that she went over there in the name of peace. She went over there to help. She did NOT go over there to support militants.


Where? By the slander squads behind the IDF who would like to justify any brutal act as long as it's done by the "right" people, namely the IDF...? WHERE and WHEN did she say this? WHO cited this?

There's much the U.S. has stood back and chosen inaction on. How about all of the UN resolutions Israel is supposed to be in violation of??? (NOTE: I already know your predictable next statement, but before you question the validity of some of these obviously stupid resolutions against Israel, keep in mind that there are at least SOME that even the U.S. support, Israeli actions that the U.S. condemns yet refuse to act upon. The surrounding of Arafat's compound being one of them).

When did the U.S. open an investigation? Who is conducting it? The IDF were seemingly cleared immediately of any wrong doing. Who conducted that investigation, the IDF!!?

Who accused the ISM of this? It's funny, the condemnation of these people often seems to come from people who are ultimately their political rivals. What a shock! Were the priests with their "agenda" on Christmas Eve just "lobbying" for power within the strong PA hierarchy?? I'll bet. Why didn't they complain then about the ISM?? During the stand off, the IDF claimed that the priests were being held at gun point. What was the follow up on the validity of this claim...?

ANYONE can seek refuge in a Church. I don't condone terrorists walking free, however I'd need to know more about who was in the church, and you must forgive me if I don't trust the claims made often by the IDF. Did the PA admit these men were convicted, since you claim it was their jurisdiction....?

So says you. Many others feel that they are helping an occupied people, and I tend to subscribe more to that story, rather than the clearly slanted story that everyone they assist is in fact a wanted terrorist by the IDF.

Right, lesson learned. The IDF taught a lesson that should be appreciated, right ABC?? Don't you dare come to help all of these filthy "terrorists," because that's ehat they clearly ALL are, right?

If you want to have recored, printed evidence of the nature of her skull fracture, I think you would x-ray regardless.

Run along now and let the adults talk, Vince. Go update your porno site, or something....

Holy shit you're dense. Why would the lights on top raise and lower six inches? Even the ISM have revised their handout to read "This was one of two bulldozers participating in the home demolition operation on the day Rachel was killed." These photos were originally represented as being of the same bulldozer at the same time of day. Why? two different bulldozers, at two different times of day in front of TWO different horizons. Additionally, the shot showing her after the injury, the 3rd photo has much more daylight than the 2nd photo which is supposed to be BEFORE the 3rd photo.
Where is the mound of earth Rachel clambered up and was buried in? The woman shown lying bleeding from her nose and mouth is lying on a flat piece of ground, and she's not covered in sand. The photos of the friends seem posed. Hardly a frantic digging in motion of air of panic can be seen. There is also the issue of the photos having two different photographers, and time/date stamps on some and not others.


Hey, maybe she should have looked into it further before putting her life on the line then...and maybe revitioniss like yourself shouldn't attempt to capatilize on her death so it wasn't in "vain" ? Gosh Ranxer, why worry that she died in vain when she was acting as a human shield for a cause she believed a noble one?

International law says "the defending side is allowed to demolish enemies firing and fighting postions in order to prevent future or current warfare".

hmm, maybe because the bucket goes up and down?

i was saying that that and the reflective color are the only two things that appear different in the two images after close inspection..

So you think that they just wanted to bulldoze one house? my understanding is that it was blocks of houses.. i dont think that someone opposed to it would need to find our the particular history for each shack to attempt to defend it.

After hearing many many stories of brutality endorsed by Isreal i have no reason to believe that they didnt intend to run over her.. but i admit that it still could have been an accident.. either way they don't always check homes before them mash them. so i'm not interested in continuing to give this incident a fine tooth comb.. the isreali musaad is a terrorist prone group that even many isrealis are protesting.. i don't know what they refrain from doing for thier actions are very secret.. i'm just pissed that they get a large chunk of my taxes for thier war toys >:[/quote]

Actually Ranxer, your taxes go to agricultural science that's going to allow even idiots like yourself to breath, inteligence... and debt relief for the creation of a state that took in millions of unwanted refugees from around the world. Israel has even requested less money then before, because their loan debt has decreased. The war toys you speak of are funded through the sale of other war toys. As for your statement on Mossad.... come back with some support for it and we can talk... in the meantime you're just a conspiracy theorist who believes everything printed on indymedia for fact. You never cease to amaze me how stupid you can sound.

One more thing. EVEN THE ISM ADMITS THESE WERE TWO DIFFERENT TANKS. Get a grip kid.

+r)? had to wrap your head around all that didn't you. Look, stop talking out of your ass.

[quote="KevinTheHerbivore"]Rachel Corrie in her own words. .....
"I would also like to ask you, and those to whom you pass this on, to think about the relative positions of the fighters and occupiers in this monumentally unequal struggle. While the huge force of Israelis have every technical aid invented by the US war machine, the few young fighters have NOTHING BUT THEIR WEAPON (and this not the most modern) - no helmet, bullet proof vest, radio contact or other protection. No back-up, no plane, helicopter, tank, APC, searchlight, dogs, flares, ambulance or refuge - put all the Israeli/American propaganda aside for a few minutes and try to imagine, please, the courage it requires to do what these youngfighters do, knowing that the odds are against escape and that, every time they do succeed in evading death, the odds against a further survival are shortened. Even if the operation is a success the price is always high." - from her February 10th diary entry.

She lavishes praise on suicide bombers. She advocated the violence and mass murder of terrorist and criminal actions...she certainly believed in what she believed in, but she was not a peace activist.

Here she talks about a demonstration for Childrens rights where she refers to fatah, hamas, and PLFP as "community groups".......
The demonstration began at 11 and lasted about an hour. Children and representatives from community groups gave speeches in Arabic. Masses marched carrying signs and banners that said "Peace for children in Palestine and Iraq" and "The real terrorists are in the United States and Israel", among many other statements against war on Iraq, and in support of the Iraqi people. The internationals recognized symbols and banners from numerous school and community-groups, Fateh, DFLP, FIDA, PFLP, Hamas and many individual demonstrators among those marching.

One international delivered a speech in English, translated into Arabic by one of the Palestinian coordinators of ISM-Rafah. This speech decried the behaviour of the United States' and British governments, recognized the linkage between war on Iraq and increased destruction of Palestinian lives, and also recognized the mass mobilization of people around the world on behalf of peace, justice, and human rights. The international thanked the Palestinian people for offering a continuous example to the rest of the world of resistance against all odds.

As this speech was delivered, a British national burned a large British flag, and a US national burned a large US flag. Both activists then burned numerous images of US president George W. Bush. The woman who deliverd the speech burned a picture of the houses of Parliament in London. As the speech concluded they began to chant, with the crowd immediately surrounding them, "Hurriyah la Falasteen" –Freedom for Palestine—repeatedly.

Other groups burned a giant papier-maché model of an F-16 bomber, an effigy of Ariel Sharon, as well as giant Israeli, US, and British flags. "


She's political but she is NOT a peace activist. She's also supporting the indoctrinization of young children with hatred and the will to commit violent acts. She supported terrorism or um..."militants" ...and she was not ashamed of it. Call a spade a spade.


To her Mother she wrote....
"I thought a lot about what you said on the phone about Palestinian violence not helping the situation. "......"If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained? I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is. I really think, in a similar situation, most people would defend themselves as best they could. I think Uncle Craig would. I think probably Grandma would. I think I would. You asked me about non-violent resistance." http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...916246,00.html

I've left out her long descriptions of what Israel does/did to provoke such violence...THE POINT here is that she did write sympathetic and romantic words towards the act of suicide bombing. It's in her own words... NOT propaganda published by the IDF.


The ISM support the Intifada. http://www.palsolidarity.org//whoarewe.htm
They support resistance, not peace. Ask Susan Barclay, another ISM worker who was recently deported from the West Bank. Yes she says they were there to take part in mundane activities like walking children to schools, etc. She also admitted in several interviews (I know of one with the Seattle Post-Intellifencer) that she knowingly worked with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, terrorist groups with charters calling for the complete demolishen of the Jewish state.

Sure thing, Kevin. I will go update my "porno" site with the vids of me hosing your mother down with my man chowder.

I am glad I hadn't wasted my time on this before, and irritated to have just read all that garbage. Rachel Corrie's death neither justifies nor diminishes the moral arguments of the conflict, from any side. What irritates me, personally, is that these character assassinations, sensible or otherwise, aren't really about seeking the truth, but about making the grievances of the other side look like shit. Never mind the security question, or the refugee question, or the colonialism question -- we should instead occupy ourselves with annoying distractions like these. And that these distractions somehow invalidate the entire movement, or argument. Trash on the level of Hard Copy journalism, pretending to be morally supreme. But, I guess there is an audience for tabloid toss... Anyway, this is no longer worth a minute of my time.

apport - why even post if you're too self righteous to stay and debate your point. sorry it threatens your indymedia party line. you're a weak willed bitch who should step up and realize the importance of calling out "peace activists" that encourage children to strap on suicide belts to kill innocents. seriously. her death was very consequential to a lot of people on all sides of the conflict... glad it didn't matter to you.

sheesh
 

hey, insult all you want.. i simply said what i thought about the images and asked a couple questions and said if my thought was true then such and such, i didnt claim they were the same tank.

i don't take indymedia as fact.. i expect alot of different views to show up there.. and if i'm posting i state if its fact, if its not i say so! rumor, acusation, etc.

i admit my suspicians and my bias

i didn't call you any names(yea, but i don't really care much about insults most of the time, if thats what you need then so be it)
and
i'm STILL PISSED that my taxes go to war toys..
whether israeli or not is argueable..
don't tell me that tax writeoffs by major weapons manufactures and huge amounts for research and testing(not to mention wars used for sales) don't help ALL those buying weapons from our corporations.. Isreal is in the mix, whether they are strictly buying, selling, researching, testing or whatever with our international coroporations is irrelevant to me when we are talking billions.

Re: sheesh
 

Then isn't it discrimination to take Israel "out of the mix" and single them out?????


Israel buys arms from the United States, as do many other nations, including Arabic states. It's called Foriegn Miltary Financing, and it goes towards creating billions of dollars in revenue for the US each year. This means 74% of aid must be spent in the US to generate profits and create jobs.

A weak willed bitch? Whoah, 'jump back'.

He never said it didn't matter to him, he said the aggrandizement of her death and the obsessive controversy surrounding detract from real debate on both sides. Having read this thread I see ample evidence that this womans corpse has been fetishized by with more enthusiasm by both sides than a stiff at a Necrophile convention. I cannot imagine a way this could contribute to a cessation of violence. I'm just guessing here, but I bet she was neither a saint nor a demon and died somehwere in between.

You are overly eager for offense, as you were overly eager to hold forth on this subject, which you did the instant someone pulled aside the thin veil you coyly held over your zeal. If anything was weak willed, that was. You have something to say, a point to make, make it. Don't batt your eyelashes and say "Oh, I was just wondering what YOU make of it."

Often you have something to say. Often you are well informed. But speaking as someone who might actually take something away from what you bring to the table, your rabid presentation and your ravenous need to be aggreived and lash out color your arguments.

isreal has policies that single itself out.. i'd like to get more informed before i get into isreal debates but i have seen people get blacklisted and worse for bringing isreal up in public.. the dark cloud that surrounds the israeli issues scares me as much as gwb but i must admit i don't know enough to back up or ague any claims about isreal.. i think i'm in solidarity with the folks that started the 'not in my name' group over there.

i also know that when i wore that button(not in my name) in certain upperclass areas, zionists(they didnt claim to be but after looking into it i guess they were fundamentalist zionists) got really rabbid at me but i didnt know much about what they were yelling :)

Burbank's just dying to give me a manners class. You realize you've made a dozen posts in response to presentation rather then content. I'm sorry you don't like my demeanor there Maxie, but save it for your semiotics dissertation on computer debating ethics will ya?

I wasn't playing hard to get, I was seriously questioning the ability of those on this board to see through propaganda ... and apparently you're all a buncha suckers. So be it. From my vantage point I see a lot of kids sitting in the States trying to be political with some real limitations to their understanding of the situation...and they'll believe what they want to in order to support their half baked beliefs... It wasn't that long ago some of you were talking about Arafat as a man of peace who had changed his ways.

How exactly has the pro-Israel contigent, who would like this to go away, helped to exploit her name? By putting light on the situation as it was and questioning inconsitancies in the photos? Are you aware of the story of one little Muhammad Al-Dura, a poster boy in his own right? Now the circumstances of these deaths must be questioned, for they are being held up for the world to see as examples. Look, nobody is debating the fact that she died and it was horrible...but do you like seeing her corpse on the internet? You like knowing that someone who represents peace in the middle east for the movement was actually sympathetic and working alongside terrorists? It's a problem. She wasn't the first American casualty of this conflict and sadly it's unlikely she'll be the last.

Next time you see a Rachel Corrie poster, or see her name mentioned, ask yourself who Abigail Litle was... and wonder why nobody cares.

Now excuse me, but firstly....what the fuck does an "upper class neighborhood" have to do with the reaction your button got? I really can't wait for an answer to this one.

Secondly. I can tell you one reason why someone would be disturbed by your NIMN pin and it has NOTHING to do with Zionism. Ready? That organization (based out of the Midwest, not Israel) is apparently blind and deaf to violence commited against Israeli citizens. If one reads their news update page on the web they would be completely unaware of the violent acts being commited against innocent civilians..... no mention of terrorism... nothing about Hamas and their refusal to live in peace with Jews... no talk of suicide bombings...it doesn't exist.... the only casualties they see worth acknowledging are those of Palestinians. I have a lot of radical leftist friends who find this disturbing... hell, I'd think anyone with a conscious would find this disturbing. It's about a sense of humanity, not Zionism.

So ranxer, let me suggest that before you wear a button, or engage in debate on a subject as fragile and sticky as the Israel issue, that you do look at all sides of the argument rather then parrot the sources you normally trust. Are you just a causest who follows the party line like a sheep? No matter what the subject I suggest you learn the history before you form an opinion, and voice it in public.

I'm glad so many people inherently know the TRUTH without knowing all the FACTS. God sure was nice to give you some of his omniscience.

you tell 'em squiggy!

I'm glad to see such clear contributions to this thread!


and......


Eh, eh, eh! Hold on. Now is this what she advocated...? Here's another quote from her:

"do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect . . . whatever fragments remained?"
(Washington Post, 4/19/03)

Is she coming off as an apologist? Yes. But, you are taking her VERY MUCH out of context when you say that her applause for "young fighters" is a justification of suicide bombing. She IS defending, I have no doubt, the meager assualts on IDF troops and out posts by armed Palestinians.

What you, and others who wish to smear her name, call justification is at its worst her creating some kind of moral equivalence between desperate actions and desperate people. Watching these people, living with these people, she sees them suffer, she sees them become desparate.

The question she is attempting to raise is one many already have. If someone bombed your house, how willing to die would you become? If somebody bulldozed your home, how desparate would you become? However, neither her, nor the ISM for that matter, justify the suicide bombings.

Now see, this is where it gets tricky (wait, oh wait, your head won't be able to take this one). The continuous problem I've learned with groups like Hamas, which advocate terrible things and evil acts, is that they DO do charity work within the Palestinian community, and they in fact are LOVED by many Palestinians!

To my understanding, Hamas operates much like an umbrella group. Much of it is shit that deserves to be noted as such, but there is a faction of Hamas apparently that serves as a non-violent, civil disobedience sect. I believe they are even denounced by the other wings of Hamas for being too "passive" even.

That aside, that only, if even, explains Hamas. But she throws Fateh in there, among other rotten groups. But don't doubt that when she says "community groups," she is truly being earnest about their work in the community. Does this justify the terrible actions that they condone? No. But this again raises the problem: folks like you call for the removal of swine like Arafat, but if that were so, who do you think these people would turn to in his place? The new PM??? HA!

It has much to do with anti-semitism. It also has much to do with desperation.


By burning flags? By, in her PERSONAL e-mails to her mother, questioning the actions of those on both sides? Do you think that's what she did, taught 5 year olds to hate Jews....?


Her own words, even by you, have been distorted.


Lets complete the sentence, shall we???


Yes, and this is wrong. But when you're serving as a group aimed to aid the Palestinian people, and many of the only established groups there that not only GRANT help to the Palestinians, but are also TRUSTED by the Palestinians, you can either stay outside that web and accomplish little to nothing, or make strange bed-fellows with those groups, and try to accomplish something. Supporting terrorism is wrong, but this is NOTwhat the ISM has set out to do.

In fact, looking at the ISM website, they specifically denounce the support of such activities, because they feel it only gives Ariel Sharon fuel to press down on them harder (and they're right). Any supporting, or "trafficing" done for these groups through the ISM is the exception, not the norm, and is certainly NOT the policy and the goal.

With that aside, lets note something else: It would be unfortunate if Rachel Corrie was a rotten anti-semite, and that she willingly supported the intifada (haven't found anything other than IDF trestimony substantiating the claim that the house was used for gun trafficing, though), does this justify her death/murder?? If Rachel was a criminal, that is if she was aiding in the support of illegal, terrorist activities, then tragic as it may be, she was in the wrong place, very wrong time.

But what I see here isn't a correlation between Corrie and her actual activities, rather, a kind of justification for her death based on her character. "Rachel was sympathetic to gunmen in personal e-mails to her mother, so she OBVIOUSLY deserved to have her skull crushed."

The IDF internal investigation seemed rather fast to me, and read more like a condemnation of Rachel rather than an honest inquiry into the actions of the IDF that day. I hope a serious U.S. investigation is conducted, and if the soldier operating the bulldozer, as well as the IDF, are innocent, let them be cleared. Lets prove it.

well Abcdx, i was wearing the button where there was a servant class hidden and waiting on the elite with religious overtones (a rare occurance for me) and wasnt aware that many saw the statement of nimn as isreali!
i was wearing it to protest how our taxes are being used and our rights being obliterated to wage the war(on iraq).. i didnt mean to bring up isreal at all and thus was taken by surprise to find that people thought i was 'anti-isreal' from it. i had absolutly no thoughts about isreal related to nimn when i came across that button. and i say zionists but am still not sure what the hell those folks were.
i realized after that i should have 'not in our name' to be more correct to the trademarking of slogans on the net and who knows where else or what for others are using the slogans.
www.notinourname.net

i still think folks can have a general opinion on the isreal conflict without getting into specifics. i'm not voting on the problem(as if i could) so relax i'm just voicing some understandings, questions and maybe some accusations..

but if you think that having empathy for folks that have very little and are up against a wall and worse by a powerful nation that is armed to the teeth is supporting terrorists then i really have no interest in reading yer words about it.

truly many of the 'terrorist' groups only have terrorist elements in them, as kevin is describing them as social groups in a large part is what ive read/heard as well.

the situation is far from being described by our papers and journals, i'm pretty convinced that the disinformation is about as strong if not stronger than the information in the news, especially about isreali conflicts, the terms for the groups and leaders are so simplified its sickening to think of what is not being told. the tendrils of the cia(or other covert ops) and mussad are in the 'terrorist' groups causing untold destruction. there are occasional leaks about it that disappear quickly.. i can't say i know nearly enough about it to name anyone but i suspect that the truth is not let out in too many places. the issues are complex and there are many biases and even some the truth cannot come out or people in power will have reckon with being tried for warcrimes.
this is systematic of the capitalist game today.. get as many hands dirty as you can so everyone is guilty and cannot point fingers unless they are admitting guilt

my assumptions about the conflict are largely based on how power in the hands of the few over the many have similar problems.

but, i'd much rather listen to many varied people from the region than discuss what i think is right or wrong about it

"let me suggest that before you wear a button, or engage in debate on a subject as fragile and sticky as the Israel issue, that you do look at all sides of the argument rather then parrot the sources you normally trust"

which is basically all most of you do in this forum anyway... including the guy i'm quoting if half of what i've read of his is anything to go on.

i like the way i said it earlier better >:

NIMN stands for Not In My Name, am I correct? The organization exists solely to oppose what they see as Israeli occupation. It's a decidely anti-Israel group run by Jews of some sort. Are you making the assertion that Israel is to blame for war on Iraq?



Were you wearing a NION or a NIMN badge? Two different organizations with confusing names. Can you clarify?


okay assuming you're not working under some false impression that Jews are all a people of privledge and power, then one could turn what you just described and rephrase it this way.... Jews have "very little (only 2% of middle eastern land) and are up against a wall and a worse (or an ocean and a lot of enemies) by a poweful nation (or a league of powerful arab nations that already cleansed their populations of Jews) that is armed to the teeth, is supporting terrorists, then I really have no interest in read yer words about it".


Hamas and others play huge parts in their communities, but their existance are based around terrorist activities. You don't have to believe me...believe THEM. It's in their charters, and all over their statements of purpose. Sure they help the children, but they also indoctrinate them with hatred and conduct suicide bomber camps. Is it really a trade off ? You really feel confident in calling militant groups that take public credit for mass homocides "community groups" because they do good deeds too? The Klan used to hold really good bake sales, but they were still the Klan.


Good idea. Except I sense you already have an aversion to this thing called Zionism though, and a predetermined nature to dissent from any government power structure to side with "the people" no matter who or what they're about. So with that bias I'd be shocked if you could actually read anything pro-Israel with an open mind.

Kevin:
Is that your best rebutal? Nobody is defending the right to kill her or justifying the death. Do you understand that? I don't think you do. Does Rachel Corrie need to be a criminal here? I don't think so....but once again, let's not glorify her actions as somehow heroic. People are parading around with her image, as a human rights activist, when she was just someone with a decisively pro-palestinian stance sympathetic and supportive to the intifada. That's it. It's in her own words. Put them back into context, and she STILL rationalized the Intifada. There is no context in which teaching Palestinian children to burn an Israeli flag can be construed as teaching tolerance, coexistance or aiding their struggle in a constructive PEACEFUL manner. Did she deserve to die for it? NO! You're missing the point if you think anyone's saying that. There is no moral equivalency. There is no justification. Wether it's Rachel Corrie as the victim or a young teenage Baptist girl on a bus. Violence is violence. We all want it to stop. Don't we? Don't you think it would be a better idea for an International peace activist group to disassociate from violent groups that commit premeditated murders? What amount of community service makes genicidal homocide acceptable? Do tell.

Don't you think it would serve their time better to send their members to put pressure on the Palestinian Authority for the release of billions in stolen funds rather then putting their life on the line jumping on bulldozers? Maybe they should work to remove civilians from dangerous areas along the Philladelphi line in Rafah, and relocate them in better safer neighborhoods so that the IDF can shut down these tunnels. I know why not... because they were protecting the TUNNELS not the homes. Rachel Corrie even acknowledged these tunnels in her diary...she knew they were there. It's not a smear campaign against some poor innocent girl, it's a reaction to an organization that has exploited this incident to smear the IDF. They waited for an oppurtunity like this, and they had photographers standing by just in case!

Just as nothing proves the IDF side of the story without investigation, absolutely NOTHING proves the ISM or PA side, which oddly enough KEEPS CHANGING, and has always conflicted to begin with. Where is the house in any of those photos? Where is the family or the doctor supposedly inside? Why did the doctor on the scene lie and say she was DOA when the pictures, along with the testimonies prove otherwise? Why did the ISM change their story? If the bulldozer really backed over her then why is her body intact? Do you realize how hard it is to get hit by a tractor moving ten miles an hour??? Why isn't there any logic to the evidence that ties it together? Why are you guy's using suspension of belief to believe what you want? D-10 Catepillars do not have lights that raise and lower!!!! The sun in Israel does not shift that drastically in 15 minute time spans. Tragic incidents like this do not normally need to be embelished!!!! Nobody even needed to see play by play photos. The event would have been JUST as harsh without the ISM milking it with "proof". She obviously died...it's horrible...what are they tryiing to hide?

"Supporting terrorism is wrong, but this is NOTwhat the ISM has set out to do. "

So acting as shields for Arafat, and armed militants associated with various terror groups inside of the Church of Nativity isn't supporting terrorism? They support resistance NOT peace. If you want to pretend their association working alongside terrorists is all accidental fringe activities then you're just turning a blind eye.

I need not argue against you because there are people on the board versed well enough to do so more eloquently than I. Mostly, I would rather not waste my time contributing to the evidence against your points because you face us with blind eyes, but I may as well read and learn. Nevertheless,

They support resistance NOT peace.

This is the axis of your ineptitude. You can't escape the superstructure in which you see resistance as the antithesis to peace. You must learn to accept the fact that when the present order of things in a state of moral depravity, resistance is in the right. Israel has done some very nasty things to the Palestinians, so resistance is in order. The shameful fact of the world is that violence is more visible, and thus more easy, than non-violence. This is why the MEANS of resistance are so universally deplorable, and neither this poor girl nor I will try to justify such violence. You reap what you sow, and Israel has planted the violent seeds that demand resistance. Pray that no more lives shall be lost.

has a lot to do with it yes, but that's NOT what i was talking about.
yes, nimn is not in my name and that is the button that i was wearing.

again as i said before i had no intention of bringing up isreal in any fashion but those folks jumped on me for it because They saw my NIMN button and assumed i was anti-isreal.. I'm more anti corporate totalitarianism than anti-isreal, so, where isreal approaches that i'm opposed to it.

and yes you have me correctly pidgeon holed about siding with 'the people' vs a 'state' or 'nation' when the state or nation disenfranchises the people. Isreal has more power and money per capita than almost any nation. so your twisting of my words is not what i meant.. the poor that are up against a wall are mostly palestinians.. although the situation has both sides in conflicting areas up against a wall. i'd like to give the people of isreal the benefit of the doubt but when i get attacked(verbally this time) for expressing sympathy for palestinians(even though it was mistaken on my part) i tend to think, hmm, these zionists(its my understanding that they are the most rabidly against NIMN) seem militant to me.

I brought up Not in Our Name because that is the button that i SHOULD have been wearing to avoid the Isreali confict issues but as i said before i didn't know enough about nimn till i was attacked over it. my experience is also a small thing in relation to the issues.. i don't assume that all zionist are totalitarian palistinian haters, its just that those are the only ones ive run into ;)

"Burbank's just dying to give me a manners class. You realize you've made a dozen posts in response to presentation rather then content."
-abcedxx

Someone needs to give you a manners lesson. Presentation vs. 'content' has meaning in this discussion. Suicide bombs and bulldozers are admittedly a different way to persue debate, but I'm not sure they're effective. You knee jerk, rabid enraged victim response typifies Palestinians and Jews. I cannot imagine the cycle of violence ever ending until one or both sides are all dead. Manners, and their concretized practice which we call Law are the time honored method by which humans refrain from killing each other.

"I wasn't playing hard to get, I was seriously questioning the ability of those on this board to see through propaganda ... and apparently you're all a buncha suckers."

Horseshit. That was pure bait and you were disapointed it took as many posts as it did for you to get a chance to climb atop your own soapbox and present your own Propoganda which you see as facts. If you believe the folks that disagree with you sit around twisting their handlebar mustaches and cackling with evil glee over their 'propoganda'... well, scratch that, you do. I imaginbe they think they are just as in the right as you, which is precisely what makes them so dangerous. Moral certainty and Savagery are kissing cousins.

"and they'll believe what they want to in order to support their half baked beliefs"
I assume you're above all that.

"nobody is debating the fact that she died and it was horrible"
Do you think it was horrible? Honestly? Concidering you think she was very nearly a terrorist and you find her writting poetically supports suicide bombing (and I really didn't get that from the passage you quoted. I'm sure there's more, but it is possible to feel for the suffering of Palestinians and imagine it drives them to unforgivable acts. It is possible to imagine that under the same circumstances one might do the same thing without condoning the act.) is her death 'horrible'? I certainly can't get behind doctoring her photo in any way but you seem fairly committed to defaming her character to a bunch of people who far from swallowing propoganda didn't seem to know much of anything about her.

"Next time you see a Rachel Corrie poster, or see her name mentioned, ask yourself who Abigail Litle was... and wonder why nobody cares."

I know who she was, but would never have known there were pictures or the degree to which her death was being manipulated. You manipulate her death to your ends with this very tirade. I personally see her as one more corpse atop a heap, all dead needlessly. If I were a Palestinian I would be ashamed of my people and Angry at the Jews. I'm Jewish and so my feelings are reversed.

Now, since you are obviously eager to tell us all about Abigail Little
why don't you drop your pretenses, start a thread and do so.

Seth "Israel has done some very nasty things to the Palestinians, so resistance is in order."

Sure, and so too have the Palestinians done some nasty things to the Israelis and then defense is in order.. And so? I'd answer you further but you seem to prefer sitting on the safety lines and popping in with some half baked non-arguments.
Otherwise feel free to explain this comment in detail..
"Israel has planted the violent seeds that demand resistance."... Kthanks.

Ranxer - "Isreal has more power and money per capita than almost any nation."
could you substantiate that comment? What's that based on besides your own uneducated bias and admitted assumptions? Again - When you wear a button for an anti-Israel group it will not be percieved as a statement against anti-corporate totalitarianism. Aren't you bright enough to realize that? You still seem to think you were being harassed don't you? You deserved to be scolded, if only for wearing a button representing a group you thought was a different group. Irresponsible activism there buddy. Israel is a socialist based democracy founded on communal living. Even the Israeli Parliment used to follow communal rules in their dining hall. I've said it before, but there were and still are Zionist of every shade .... marxist, communist, etc. IT IS NOT A TOTALITARIAN REGIME. Sharon is not a dictator. He runs a government with Palestinians in the cabinet.


BUrbank - "typifies Palestinians and Jews." Yeah that's what I'm hear for, you dolt. Look you can call it manners, I'll call it coexistance...and I am drastically opposed to anyone who opposes that. Including the ISM. I view Rachel Corrie as a brainwashed pawn in that action...I couldn't tell you much about Abigail Litle because there aren't hundreds of tribute pages devoted to her. She didn't want to be there, yet Corrie was there because she believed that Jews view Palestinian blood as worth less then hers. A horrible accusation the ISM makes every day. Most pro-Israel supporters would love to see this Corrie incident buried (pun intended) but I prefer to confront it head on. Burbank... what was propaganda here? Please qoute me on it. What did I present to you that was propaganda? Specifically.

Labelling the quote you put up as a poetic embrace of suicide bombing. 'Educating' people who didn't even know the incident you were talking about on how evil the people who were using her death were. Pretending to activly seek opinions when all you wanted to do was print a broadside. I think you mayb be a little off on what the word propaganda means.

How do you see co-existence coming about? What concessions do you see being made by either side? Not that I condone violence of any kind against civillians or soldiers, but how will Palestinians without a state or representation attain anything beyond their current miserable existance?

Well there you go. Perhaps the Palestinians need some proper leadership first. . Then we can talk about concessions. I can give you a whole list of concessions that HAVE been made by Israel, and I have never heard any demand for the same of the Palestinians except to stop the violence and persecute the terrorist crimes. What concessions have the Palestinians offered to make to end this conflict?

Are you aware of the latest plan for Israel to drill gas lines into Gaza so that the Palestinians will be controlling and selling energy to Israel? This is an unconditional agreement to allow Palestinians to earn revenue and create an infrastructure based around something other then killing Jews.

Doesn't that go against what the ISM teach their voulenteers? In ISM lingo there are no "seperation fences or security zones" there are only "apartheid fences". Yet, there is NO racial segragation in Israel, NONE. ISM are trained in 100 years of Mid East history in one hour. They are instructed to only refer to the Israeli Defense Force as the Israeli Occupation Force. Then they stand in the line of fire with the assumption that Israelis view their blood as being worth more then an Arabs... and they're getting hurt...and they shouldn't be there... they shouldn't muddle up the conflict anymore then it already is.... it's not constructive, and neither is leftists who barely understand the situation glamorizing what they do.

As for rationalizing suicide bombings... a lot of you do it...and you're a bunch of filthy sick fucks for it. It's no better then saying "the IDF are so frusterated they can't help but let off a few rounds on little kids, they have no other choice". Which is what a lot of you idiots THINK supporters of Israel are doing.... but read a moderate pro-Israel page and you'll see a lot of remorse, and a lot of regret that IDF troops are put into positions where people are getting killed in a way that is unintentional. Nobody wakes up, walks to the west bank and plans to shoot a kid in the head that day.... suicide bombings ARE premeditated, often with financial kickbacks to the family, subsidized by "community groups" that teach children an act of murder and suicide. NO RATIONALIZATION of that is okay. None.
It's not brave, and it's NOT soulfull.


p.s.. Maybe Palestinians upset YOU because you're Jewish, but the reason they upset me has nothing to do with my religion and everything to do with their actions.

"p.s.. Maybe Palestinians upset YOU because you're Jewish, but the reason they upset me has nothing to do with my religion and everything to do with their actions."

Well, bully for you. I'm sure, as your subtext often implies, you are a righteous person in posession of truth. I am capable of being revolted by terrorism AND feeling that Jews should find occupation Anethema.

"As for rationalizing suicide bombings... a lot of you do it...and you're a bunch of filthy sick fucks for it."

Do you mean posters at I-mock, or are you referring to some more vague phantom enemy? I think you see that rationalization where often it doesn't exist because it makes the person who disagrees with you a 'filthy, sick fuck.'

"I have never heard any demand for the same of the Palestinians except to stop the violence and persecute the terrorist crimes."

How about conceding to being occupied or conceding to settlements on what they think of as their land? They haven't been asked to concede to anything.

"Perhaps the Palestinians need some proper leadership first"

Perhaps 'regime change' will be a part of the US. 'Roadmap'. Then we can set up a a democratic government and lovely relations with Israel will ensue. I loathe Arafat, I know next to nothing about the new PM, but I do know that it's a loosing game to try to determine what constitutes 'proper' leadership for other people. I think it's a garantee for an endless war of attrition.

It's not occupation when Palestinians walk the streets free with the right to vote, and earn wages, and exist as happy citizens of Israel. The Palestinian Authority are an autonomos governing body, so perhaps they are "occupying" the Palestinians land. Israel's checkpoints and tactical maneuvers are actions as part of an on going war between the two sides and various neighboring ccountrys. Unless by occupation you just mean land owned by Jews that should be ethnically cleansed. Is that what you're arguing for?

If you've hard of the Fatah party then you know who the new PM is. All this "fueding" between him and Arafat is show for the media. He's been his right hand man for decades.

I was unaware Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza strip were allowed to claim Israeli citizenship.

It's also hard to earn wages during dusk to dawn curfews.

And Black South Africans under apartheid had ample access to employment.

Anyone living on land under Israeli jurisdiction can in theory become a citizen if they chose. Many have.

More then ample access to employment then can vote, own land, own business, run for government office, hold positions in Parliment to fight for more rights, speak their mind freely, have rights regardless of sexual preference and gender....and if this isn't enough for them, they can take citizenship in Jordan, or the other 98% of the Mid-east where Jews can not.

(In addition, they were alloted territory to create their own infrastructure for an independent state, and provided with the training and guns to hold jurisdiction over the land. They were also at one pointawarded a portion of tax money, (israel has the highest taxation of most any nation. close to 50% of the Israelis wage. a typical yearly income is only $18,000 there) , access to Israel's coveted water supply, and a money making Casino. The PA abused and mismanaged these oppurtunities by turning their energies towards organizing further uprisings instead)

To label Israel an Apartheid state belittles the struggle of the Black South Africans who were not afforded these same oppurtunities. Internationals who view the mid-east conflict as apartheid would best serve the peace process by staying put and taking a class in the subject instead.

What is the process for a Palestinian living in the west bank to become an Israeli citizen. I'm not denying the possability, It's just new to me, so I'm asking. Because if it's that easy, I'm shocked that Palestinians haven't simply changed Israel from within. Perhaps they don't want to become Israeli citizens because they are Palestinians and feel becoming Israelis would signify a loss of identity.

A Palestinian can acquire Jordanian citizenship by leaving their home. While Israeli's cannot emigrate to Jordan and lobby for citizenship, there are many countries they can emigrate to. Citizenship is not gauranteed, but I don't really see a great deal of difficulty in an Israeli attaing American citizenship, if they are willing to abandon their home.

Yes, and Palestinians come to America all the time too. Not as conveniant to visit your family as it is when you live in Jordan though is it?

The West Bank is under PA jurisdiction for the most part so they would have to move out of those territories now. It's not an easy process to become a legal citizen of Israel (even Americans have a tough time) but it used to be....and there was a time when Israel even paid reparations to Arabs that filed claims. The reason you don't see more of them doing it is because they refuse to acknowledge the existance of an Israel.... if it was about identity then why is it the typical Arab you met near Israel used to call themselves Jordanian? This was a loooong time before Jordan granted them the right of return. It's one of the reasons pro-Israel supporters often do not believe the Arabs in the territories have peace in mind at all. When they had the chance to live in peace and coexist they turned it down. Arabic Jews also faced some discrimination, but over time they've found a lot of clout within what is a fairly young democracy. The "change from the inside" theory is what right of return is about... only it's a less subtle version and claims that ALL Arabs have the right to move to Israel. The "right" means you can't legally turn them away. It will never happen, ever. Meanwhile, there was a Palestinian candidate for the position of Haifa's mayor job, and he lost to an Israeli who the Arab's out there seem to love...or at least respect.

this is typical of the isreali crimes against the palistinians.. what's not typical is the footage getting out.. though its not so damning (only one death) what i think is damning is what the official says about the incident and coverage.

http://dc.indymedia.org/ramgen/purify.rm

Is it wrong to be pro-palestinian, ABC??? I mean, you don't even really believe in a Palestinian, do you??

ISM, as I'm sure was the same with Rachel Corrie, support the resistance of Palestinian oppression, which is likewise a tenant of the intifada. They DO NOT support suicide bombing, or targeting, innocent people, and nothing Rachel Corrie said implies otherwise, either.


Do you not believe in such a free, expressive, public display, ABC?? Although I wouldn't do it, I can burn an American flag. That doesn't mean I wish violence, or war, upon the civilians of the United States.

Anger and frustration can lead to violence, but not necessarily all the time. Rachel Corrie, like many Palestinians, blame Israel for their plight. You can disagree with this, but it's not right for you to call this "unpeaceful" in its nature. Is an Israeli, who might oppose a Palestinian state, by nature hateful and violent...?


Your logic is the very kind that will never alow peace to be a possibility. You don't want to bargon with Arafat, you want someone else, so who do you get? You get another extremist making big promises. Maybe someone from Hamas, maybe someone from another group with violent, terrorist ties.

ISM, by denouncing acts of violence and terrorism, DO in fact denounce what happened to that Baptist girl. EVERYONE knows that what happened to her is wrong, and any group that has justified her death is wrong, and should be dismissed.

But how many have justified and rationalized Rachel Corrie's death? I saw one editorial in the Jerusalem Post that said we are crying over the "wrong Rachel," in other words, Rachel Corrie was rotten, and the Israelis (clearly, the only "true" victims here) are the children of biblical Rachel. It's language like this that angers people about Rachel, and it's cold justification such as this that only makes her more of a martyr.

RIGHT! I SEE clearly now! Rather than help the Palestinians against the IDF, what they should do is in fact work as a relocation program FOR the IDF! That's GENIUS! We can just keep picking them up, moving them around, and when terrorists pop up again, just pick them up, move them again, find someplace to put them, etc. It could work!


Who released her diary to the public, her parents? Can I see Rachel's written support of smuggling tunnels...? Everything else by her, you have succeeded in distorting and elaborating on, so I'd LOVE to read this....

I think you're right. I think the plan by the ISM was to sacrifice one of their own, in order to smear the IDF.

The ISM obviously bumped her off, and I think when she didn't die the first time, one of the Palestinian terrorists they hire probably put a bullet in her to finish the job, and then they lied, EVERYONE on the scene with ISM, to smear the IDF. After all, you can't trust these shifty hippies. They're always setting people up, taking pictures in order to create smear campaigns, changing stories to justify their own hit....

Maybe somebody had beef with Rachel from WITHIN ISM. Yeah, that sounds feasible. Maybe she was about to spill the beans about how they really like to support terrorism and drink the blood of Jews, so they used this as an opportunity to silence her. There's really a huge choice of options, ALL indicting the rotten, evil ISM.

Again, was it just the ISM who defended Arafat, and the the Nativity here...? Did President Bush not condemn Israel for surrounding Arafat's compound...?

You're right. There's really only one way towards peace: liquidation. I think if the ISM complied with your relocation idea, we could probably convince the world that ALL of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are in fact "harboring terrorism," eventually we could get these "Palestinians" out of there completely, through the "peace" efforts of the ISM and the IDF (they just sound good together, don't they?). Once we get most of them into Jordan and Egypt, we could then call ALL OF THEM terrorists! It'll work, call them all terrorists, kids, women, elderly, and just KILL THEM! How does that sound? I really think we should "give peace a chance," so to speak.