[Perndog]

Vinth made me cry, and then FS made me laugh. This thread is fun.

kahljorn:

Pure religion may not be about control. But when I say Christianity tells people something, I mean the faith, and not the church. These are basic tenets that may have been emphasized but were not invented by church leaders.

Regarding sex, I think you missed my point a bit. As I said, Christianity doesn't only teach people not to go around fucking everyone, it preaches that sex other than for procreation is wrong, which is a harmful thing because almost everyone has a need for sexual gratification that is not fulfilled by waiting to do anything about it until you're ready to be a parent.

Masturbating to pictures of naked women does not stop you from wanting them, but it makes it a lot easier to wait until you get to have one. Do you go out and try to get laid immediately after you get your rocks off? If you stroke it a couple times a week and have vivid fantasies, do you get so frustrated that you'll do anything to realize those fantasies? No, because your basic need has been fulfilled - same with a blowjob or whatever. You may not be getting the best thing possible, but that's not important, at least not beyond a superficial level; the only thing that is crucial is having some kind of release, and this is precisely what Christianity denies.

Yes, sex is only another earthly desire, like the desire for good food and all that; I only carried the distinction from your previous argument. And you're missing the boat when it comes to desire; it's not the desire itself that is the good thing, but the fulfillment of that desire. I don't allow myself to be consumed by desire because I let myself have what I want. I embrace my desires not for themselves but for the gratification that comes afterward, which we all need to some extent. Under Christianity, however, by denying desires and keeping them from being fulfilled, people do become consumed, because they are forbidden to do what is natural, and they are taught to feel guilty once they succumb so they try to repress their natural desire. You're right: wanting something so bad it consumes you is going to fuck you up, and you get to that point by not getting what you want, which is exactly what Christianity leads to.

Does this make better sense? People will have desires no matter what you teach them, and to say that something they already feel is wrong is only to lay guilt on them and eventually drive them to frustration and compulsion. To say instead, "yes, you can have what you want, as long as you find a way to get it," frees people to fulfill their basic needs and wants and motivates them (who should already know enough not to kill or steal in the process) to strive for the things that aren't readily available, instead of sitting in complacency and "cleansing their spirit"...whatever the Hell a spirit is.