[da blob]

Originally Posted by Helm

So you can see it as a natural error that due to a number of factors survives... In addition to stress removal as you say below I can see how this could be true. Taking into account all the higher mammals that masturbate also... So a combination of misdirected instinct, possibility of natural error, stress removal and also habitualization and human intervention. This works for me, although it's obvious that more information needs to be catalogued. The gulls still don't make sense.

Agreed. Except that I dunno why the gulls' case wouldn't make any less sense. Cause they're only birds ? And besides, given the way the article reads, I'm not exactly sure there's any "sexuality" involved in their so-called homosexuality. I mean, two homosexual female gulls, what would they do ? Stick their beaks up one another's, huh, hole (don't know the proper term for birds in english) ? Hahahah I'd love to see that. So my guess is that it's a kind of mate-like bond to an individual of the same sex, nothing "homosexual" per se.

Originally Posted by Helm

I know I'm taking this a bit far, but why? Why do higher mammals differ in this way from more basic organisms. In the deterministic process that prevades evolution, what purpose in terms of efficiency does sexual pleasure serve? Given modern understanding of evolution, it doesn't seem to do much, actually. It is only if one supposes that sexual pleasure or indeed any other psychosomatic sensory perception plays an intergal role in nature's plan for evolved lifeforms that any of this makes sense!

I did give my point of view on the "why" : "It kinda looks like genital pleasure raises to counterbalance "civilisation's" effects - them being, to widen the gap between the self-conscious animal and his instincts. "
Well of course this would apply to man only, and *maybe* to the species his influence has taken afar from their "wild" status (domestication). But maybe we could see genital pleasure as an incentive to mate over other contradictory instincts, said pleasure existing in many species in a more basic form - kinda like the pleasure obtained from eating certain particularly tasty foods, which does exist in many species, too.
And then as culturalization (duh is this a word ?) happens, a powerful incentive (i.e. orgasm as we know it) has been selected as more "sex driven" individuals have had a better reproductive success, when culture may have lessened the pure reproductive instinct or gotten in its way. For instance, culture has created codes / taboos and other frames for reproduction to be fitted in, so that pure reproductive instinct cannot be fullfilled as it would be in animals. Other example - me. I do not intend to have any children - educated decision, where mind / consciousness has blocked the possible instincts that might have surfaced. So, the only chance for my genes to be spread would be that I'd be sex-driven enough (highly motivated by sexual pleasure) so that THIS would overcome my conscious reflexion. Forgetting about contraception as the urge for pleasure would preceed over reflexion. Thank God I'm not that dumb hahaha.
OK, so this may give an explaination for man, but hardly for mammals, even the higher ones. Because there's no culture / reflexion / self consciousness to counterbalance. But as I said earlier, there might be other things, like, as an animal's life pattern gets more complicated as he gets higher on the scale, the most important instinct has to have stronger incentive so as to overcome whatever else is getting in the way at the moment (other instincts / environmental variables).


Tell me if I do not quite make sense, it's 2:30 here so huh I might be somehow slow brained at the moment.