[mburbank]

Kev; I don't think we can "Democratize" anyone. I do not think Democracy, as worthy a goal as it is, can be imposed from the outside. I especially think a country that invaded another under false pretenses can them.

Eye Tai, I'm not calling Sadaam's evil paltry. I am saying that a prepetual state of civil war can eventually (key word) be even worse than brutal dictatorship. No one should take this as an endorsement of brutal dictatorship. I believe our presence is a garantour of a prepetual state of civil war.

Kev; On the broke vs. fixed front, again, what would fixed look like, and how much in terms of lives (ours and theirs) dollars and years are you willing to think it terms of as worth our laudabile goal of democratizing Iraq? Take into concideration that as long as we're there we are far less effective as a hedge against other countries (Iran, Korea, and whoever else may decide now is as good a time as they're going to get to pursue various objectives counter to our interests) and that eventually we'll cripple our economy.

Maybe I'm being overly pessemistic, but I think if we really intend to be there until Iraq is 'fixed' we are there from now on. I don't think Iraq will ever be fixed with us there.

"We can't set timetables" is a reasonable statement. but it begs the question how long are we willing to stay, and what's a ballpark estimate of how long we're talking about. It avoids the entire discussion. They govt. obviously won't engage the topic, but will any of you? Are you willing to stay in Iraq forever? And if that's too tall and order, you're already saying that at some point it woud be worth it to pull out, fixed or not.

There was a time when getting out of Vietnam was unthinkable, the ramifications were too huge, what kind of a message would it send? And as far as messages being sent goes, what kind of a message does it send that America is now the arbiter of wether a government is Democratic enough? What are the ramfications of a US policy of "Do as we say or well topple your government and occupy your country until it's fixed."