[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by ziggytrix

Whatever, I'm done trying to talk to you.

YOU SAY THIS ALL OF THE TIME! KEEP YOUR PROMISES!!

Oh, and as for my "embedded DC life"....

I dismissed your point because it was a ridiculous comparison. Do people who haven't done bad things get yelled at and have guns pointed at them and stuff sometimes? YES! You said yourself (slightly in jest) that it's hard to distinguish who are the bad guys and who are just civilians, particularly if it is this "urban guerilla" warfare everyone keeps saying.

Once again, this doesn't mean that we are specifically there to terrorize these people and rule over them like some evil hegemon.

Originally Posted by mburbank

You're still unwilling to even begin to get at years dollars and lives. I agree with you on a lot, but until we can at least look at the reality it's all platitudes.

Because I don't work at the fucking Pentagon Max, and i could throw numbers out there if you like, but neither one of us is on the ground there, neither one is involved in the war strategy, and neither one of us knows truly the actual nuts & bolts that are being arranged by the new government. Do you want me to say I'd commit bunches and bunches of soldiers and tons and tons of money? Ok, I would.

If things aren't better a year from now can we talk about leaving?
Probably not.

Right.

How about two years? Seven? Seventeen? Thirty? One hundred and fifty? Why is this undiscussable?

I don't think that it is, and I think Sen. Feingold (see his proposal) might be on the right track. As I told you, I'm a goals sort of guy. I like the idea of saying we want X to be done by this point, and Y amount at this point. I don't entirely agree with the prez on his strategy here, which is again one of many reasons I didn't vote for the man.

But, I am a believer that we need to be unequivocal and firm to a certain extent. If we allow these people to think that we'd buckle under at the slightest sign of pressure, then you will just see the terror more and more and more.

Why is it a forgone conclusion that Iraq would collapse if we left? Is it in the interests of the region to let that happen? And what about the rest of the world? If we said "Listen, we screwed this up, and we are so tainted we can't do anything but make things worse. We aplogize, we'll give folks money and technical support, but our military is going home." that the rest of the world would just sit there? You all accuse me of being arrogant 'cause I think the Iraqis can't do democracy (which I haven't said and which is a republican talking point made available for self hypnosis), how arrogant are all of you to say "No one on earth can be in charge of helping the Iraqis but us." We are so used to playing God we think of it as jes' plain bein' Amurican.

What proof do YOU have to indicate that the chaos would improve once we left? PLEASE don't say it would appease the so-called insurgents, because I think that's 1. the wrong goal to have in the first place and 2. not even necessarily the truth. I outlined what I think would happen if we left above.

Just so you know, I am not advocating alll american troops leave tomorrow. I'm advocating an immidiate, actual plan to get us out as soon as possible. I'm advocating new strategies that actually work toward getting us out because if we don't make those plans, constitution or no the real power in Iraq will be us and they'll be a protectorate.

And I don't think we're in total disagreement here. I think what you just said is a perfectly rational expectation, however i think both sides of the argument are far away from it. Bush just likes to talk in hyperbolic statements and use abstract language, which does leave us in a sort of limbo-like state there.

But I also think the Left on this debate isn't in the right place necessarily either. A lot of these anti-war groups and Dem. blogs are screaming "BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!" I don't think they're talking about creating a feasible plan either, which leaves this serious discussion you'd like to have off the table completely, IMO.