[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by mburbank

Do you suppose when planning for the War in Iraq, some general said "Preident Bush, I;d like to propse we make some sort of plan for our actions if we are not, in fact, greeted as Liberals?" and the President said "GEE GENERAL, WHAT'S YOUR PLAN IF YOU GET HERPES"?

Max, how many people in Iraq hate our presence there? How many people blew up that mosque yesterday? How many people are going to initiate this great, impending civil war you've predicted?

How many guys blew it up? Two? How many Iraqis are taking to the "Arab street" and acting like fools, while simultaneously blaming us somehow?

Contrast that with how many people turned out to vote in the elections. Democracy and natiomn building is a messy business. Does it bother me that this administration often acts like a giant ostrich? Sure. But I personally never had any misconceptions about whether or not this would be easy. It won't be. We invaded a nation that knew nothing else but tyranny and oppression. We toppled a dictator, and basically threw republican government at people who have never been seriously asked to care about their country.


Should there be a plan for every time a small group of Islamic radicals try to incite riots and violence? I see this attack as a sign of desperation. They can't fight the U.S. head on, they can't even do a very good job at guerilla warfare, so now they're going to pander to the religious and regional sensitivities of Iraq. Which also says to me that they would rather see a splintered, chaotic Iraq than a democratic Iraq.

This seems pretty obvious to me, and it seems pretty obvious to even some Iraqis. This was an attempt by a minority of lunatics to turn Iraqi angainst Iraqi, and it worked. What should the plan be?

My plan would be to get out.

BRILLIANT!!!

First you say we nee to have a plan to deal with this, because it will destabilize the middle east. THEN you say we should pull out, because we've already destabilized the middle east. Sounds great!

I think we've made this just about as bad as we can. Militarily propping up they Shiites as they extinguish the Sunnis or hopping like hell we can get them to deal with them after a civil war better than they are before hand (and I'm not even saying they are dealable with) seems like a recipe for killing a lot of people and gaining nothing.

We have? WE have? hang on, who walked into a religious site yesterday and blew it up in order to create a civil war??? Who's logical response to that action is to take to the streets, shoot civilians, and kill clerics???

While we're at it, who sees chopping off heads, blowing up children, and kidnapping reporters as a reasonalbe means to accomplishing a goal???

At some point, we need to start treating the Iraqis like grown ups. If they want to kill each other, doing precisely what a fringe group of terorists desire, then that's what they'll do. You're right, we absolutely didn't have a contingency plan for ignorance. If we leave, things will get better.

I'm not aware that any foreign policy expert thinks tht in a war between Sunnis and Shiites that we did not participate in, Al Quaeda would gin control of Iraq.

I'm not sure what this means here, but if you mean withdrawing from a war-torn region, divided by lack of infrastructure and religious tension won't be ripe for Islamic radicals pitching answers, then look at Afghanistan and get back to me.

If we leave, the Sunnis will walk. The Kurds will walk. The Shiites will turn to other Arab nations who want want to blow up Israel and build nukes. We are in fact the only stabilizing factor in this whole mess, and those who we are at war with know that (do Jill Carroll's captors address us or the UN???).

There is no solution to makes things easier. There's only the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do. Both will be hard, and undoubtedly messy. Leaving will not fix anything, and it will only prolong a conflict between us and radical Islamic regimes.

My plan is to side with the government that was elected in Iraq. My plan would be to encourage the rule of law over the rule of the militia. My plan would be to treat this is a crime rather than a civil war, and work with Iraqi police forces to try to A. calm the reprisals, and B. search for and arrest the "insurgents" doing these things.

Perhaps it's foolish of me to have a plan that requires some degree of reason and civility on the part of these groups, but it's still a hope.