[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

kevin - why don't you spare people the flame war and stop acting like a juvenile.

Oh, I beg your pardon, you must have me mistaken. There's no "flame war" here, I sincerely don't like you.

talk about something you know for a change. you're just an op-ed parrot spouting off a bunch of polls.

Christ, I hate to act like you and pull out my "credentials," but I am a student of American politics, I have taken part in and contributed to ballot initiative campaigns, and I'm fairly knowledeable on comparative electoral systems, and how they function. So, why don't you fuck off and bite me you pretentious half-wit??? (Was that "flaming" enough for you??)

"Why else should he step down, a proposed recall put forward by 5% of the population?"

davis only won the election by 5% to begin with. he's lost the confidence of his state and the ability to get anything done.

Ok, ok, so here's the meat of the discussion. It's NOT the voter fraud that most outrages you (a noble gripe), but rather, it's the fact that he's a bad governor and you would like him beheaded?? So again, I ask you, since he did win the election as you just pointed out, why do YOU think it's fair or democratic that a disgruntled moral crusader such as yourself could self-finance a recall of a governor, one in which takes FIVE % (again, FIVE PERCENT) to get on the ballot???

And back to my other question: Is the solution more preferable than the problem???

you don't even realize how stupid you sound creating this scenario of people being duped by the big bad clip board carrying republicans.

Another question: Would the recall have ever gotten off the ground without Issa's financing of it? I mean, according to you, this is a truly grassroots, populistic movement we have here. EVERYBODY in Cali would dispose of this guy now if they could, right? WOULD the recall have happened? Better yet, if Republicans like Issa hadn't planted the seed and mobilized the action, would a swell of Californians demanded it anyway??? I think not, so fuck off trying to paint this as conspiracy theory. Again, I have enough experience in these kind of activities to know how they work, so perhaps it's YOU who should calm the "op-ed" rhetoric.

california has the largest deficit of any state ever! a lot of people hold him responsible specifically. to understand why you'd have to understand how davis handled specific issues. you'd have to talk to some of the hardcore dems that turned their back on him. you'd have to follow the govenor on local issues that aren't making national news.

New York State is going through its largest deficit since the Great Depression. Governor Pataki had resounding support from most unions in the state, whom he turned around after the election and firmly stabbed in the back. Many of the folks who endorsed him, such as UNITE and SEIU, are now calling for his head. I bet a lot of them would like to get rid of Pataki now as well. But they endorsed him, and they voted for him. These are the consequences of democracy.

I see the recall option as a BAD one, but as I've already told you, I'm not entirely opposed to it. What I am opposed to is the alternative, which is no better, if not worse.

another thing - it's dumb to keep saying only 1 million support a recall because that was all the signatures they needed. plenty more would have signed.

Polls don't indicate this, and all those who voted for Davis don't indicate this. Voters are fickle, and change with the winds. Things are bad now, and the first guy on a failing baseball team to go is the manager. The California Republicans have used this current discontent as a chance at a power grab, one that might backfire in their faces, but oh well.

I'm glad you can speak for all the voters of California, I forgot, you're an "expert."

Originally Posted by GAsux

Maybe I'm missing the point. I see what you're getting at Kev with regards to the recall process setting up the potential for political power plays, but whether California voters opt to rid themselves of Gray Davis now for a shitty alternative or wait three more years for an equally shitty alternative, either way doesn't it ultimately reflect the will of the people?

Sorry if I have little faith in the people, but it comes from several years of campaigning and signature gathering. 5% of the people doesn't seem very reflective of anything to me. Perhaps ABC is right, perhaps many more would've signed the petitions (it frankly isn't the kind of thing we can do accurate research on, b/c I'm sure the petitioners aren't marking every 'no' they get, and I'm equally certain that there's nobody out there gather signatures for a "no recall" campaign :/).

And if you wait three years, you will get a more narrow stock of choices, probably more capable ones. You'll have more time to study them, find out where they stand on issues, and then make an educated vote. This will not be the case by October 5th, with a huge ballot.

If people are being duped into this recall election as a result of a simplistic Republican power grab, won't it be reflected in their vote when they vote to keep Davis?

Well, that'd mean voting against the recall, since they can't obviously vote for him as a candidate. It's tough to tell who will get energized by this special election. Some think it will mobilize angry Dems to go out and vote down the recall. But if Davis' popularity is as poor as you say it is, it's more likely that anybody who goes to vote will be voting against Davis as opposed to voting for a competent governor.

Maybe you're right. Maybe things won't be better after a recall election. Maybe Davis will be replaced by another incompetent shit bag. But maybe not. If Davis stays, the people of the state ALREADY know what they have to look forward to for the next three years. At least a recall provides the HOPE of some kind of improvement.

Or maybe the threat of a recall forces Davis to stop being a shit bag? Davis is the definition of a spineless, self-interested politician. He has his own image to protect here, and he's going to do whatever he can to preserve it, me thinks.

Either way, I'm not even saying I'm opposed to the recall. What I am saying.....(you fill in the blanks).

Originally Posted by mburbank

Wow. The more I read this debate the happier I am recalls are free. I'm also really glad that a special election with about twenty candidates could never, never lead to a sticky multiple recount decision, and multiply contested results. Oh, well. At least the recounts would be free.

I get your joke Max, but it's even more of a joke than that. As of yesterday, 123 candidates have filed papers to run. The deadline is August 9th.