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kahljorn kahljorn is offline
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NO
Old Dec 19th, 2007, 10:29 PM       
"If such an underlying order actually does exist, wouldn't it have had to have been designed to be that way?"

No, because, like I said, maybe existence is structured in such a way that it can never become anything else. You see how this refutes that? "Wouldn't it have had to have been?" Because there's no other option, right? but there is, and that option is that the world can only develop in certain types of ways because of some constants which are impossible no matter what to change, because it would be a contradiction.
Can god make things that are morally bad good and vice versa? Or are they morally bad because of the effect they have, regardless of the fact that god designed them to be bad?
i dont know i wish I had a better example maybe later.

The closest I've come to the traditional sort of spiritual fantasy, which is kinda fun... don't get me wrong... is to imagine God physically represented in the tiniest electrical bonds holding all matter together. Matter is what it is, but the bonds that hold the particles together into whatever fashion you sense them as matter why it is. This, I think, satisfies the traditional Western criteria for God: Omnipresent, Omnipowerful and Omniscient.
Once you've gotten to recognizing this, why does god have to be a person or consciousness that has a will? Why can't it just be the basic fiber of existence? Why do people jump from, "Thing at the base of all being which sustains being -- or you could just call it being" to, "Guy who has a plan and built everything with a plan and there's a plan for the universe and we're a part of that plan and that plan is a good plan which will make us feel good and that plan was planned by a planner who can think and has consciousness and he's a lot like us!"

I think once you get down to recognizing the characteristics god must have he is robbed of any significance and glory and becomes a figurehead in existence just like the sun or any other presence in the universe. He's not some superior being with a word we should follow but just another natural law. there's nothing about that which should be impossible to comprehend for an atheist, not anymore than a religious person.

Last edited by kahljorn : Dec 19th, 2007 at 11:30 PM.
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