[Zhukov]

If all you know of Zionism is Herzl and Jabotinsky, then you don't know much about Zionism.

I admit that you probably know more history than I, but the above are the only NAMES I know. However, you mentioned Ber Borochov, and the memories flood back. I recall that he met with Lenin, and during the Russian civil war the Borochov Regiment participated in the struggles of the Red Army.

So that is four names I can drop. If you include Hess.

Ber Borochov had Marxist ideals. Po'alei-Tzion was their founding labor party and was the Zionist wing of worldwide revolutionary Marxism. David Ben Gurion even used Marxist phrasing at first, to argue that the true owners of land were the workers, and not the political or legal authority.

You are not looking at the larger picture, the true owners of the land are all workers, not just Jewish. So Gurion was only socialist, marxist, communist etc within his Zionist, nationalist, and isolated outlook. Hence, not Marxists etc.

Contrary to the Jewish socialists, active in the non-Jewish workers' parties or the Bund, the "lefty" Zionists (including The Workers of Zion) despaired over working class solidarity and found a solution by deserting the class struggle. They took up the reformist dogma of the two stage revolution in order to be Zionists ans still claim to be socialists. So, yes I will admit that the Zionist Socialists were "socialists", but I use the term as loosley as I do with the Stalinists, based on their two stage theory. (Nothing to do wih gulags Abcde!!!)

Two stage theory for the Stalinists is based on Stalins 'Socalism in One Counrty' "theory", which basicaly means they would build Russian socialism first and then worldwid socialism (a lie, of course). The Zionist first stage is the building the Jewish sate. Please note that I am not relating Socialist Zionists to Stalinists apart from their love of two stage revolutions.

Borochov met Lenin and asked him what he thought of his theory. Lenin told him that it must be very difficult to sit between two chairs. What Lenin meant by this is Borochovs theoretical schemes are really a rationalization and an attempt to harmonize socialism and nationalism. (Nothing to do with Nazis Abcd!!!!) When in fact the two are not compatible. Sorry about my simplistic uderstanding of the terminology, but they aren't.

Borochov was also the author of "Class and Nation", of which I have only encountered quotes from. But the title kind of gives it away, right? He correctly pointed out the problem of the relationship of the masses to the productive sectors of the economy. Unfortunatey for all involved, he only theorised this as a "Jewish problem". Wht is involved here is a much larger question: the need of the workers of the oppressed nations to be part of the general working class movement.

While all this is terribly interesting (Abcdx, you have indeed caused me to go and look things up) Socialist Zionist parties still did not 'invent' Zionism.

Zionism was born as the expression of the crisis and inabilty of the Jewish middle class to be integrated with the East European ruling class and at the same time rejecting the working class solution for the oppression of the Jews. The early Zionists took the anti-semitism of the rising bourgeoise in their chosen countries and combated it with their own Jewish nationalism. The Zionists took from the anti-semites the argument of the incombatibiliy of the Jews and the Gentiles, hence the desire to create massive migration of Jews to their own Jewish state.

So, Zioism was not formed on Socialist or Communist ideas, it was created on a nationalist base. No matter how many "lefty Jews" or socialist theoriticians were drawn to it. All nationalists serve the same rotten order that continue to exist while the masses suffer terribly. The Zionists are as bad as all other nationalists.