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Old Dec 12th, 2007, 02:26 AM       
But I think some people would say that to believe in such a pattern for the universe requires one to believe that it has been in some sense laid out by God, or that belief in such a pattern is the essential characteristic of belief in God in any case. I mean, if you believe the universe has some kind of inherently ordered pattern, that's kind of the same thing as believing that there is a God laying out a pattern.
Now of course, you don't really have to believe in a 'religion' to believe in 'God', but by the sort of logic I'm describing there you couldn't really be an 'atheist' and still believe in morality since 'morality' essentially stems from the inherent pattern of the universe that can only exist if there is a God.
As for Emu's first points about the cheapness of 'cost-benefit' morality, just think about what the possible reasons for doing something could be though: basically it seems that you either do it because it's the right thing to do, or because it's the most benefical thing for you to do. The common atheist accusation that the religious are just 'doing what God tells them to do' doesn't really seem to get what 'God telling you to do something' really means. If God 'tells' you something, then assuming there is a God, then the thing he is 'telling' you to do is absolutely 'right', not just beneficial because disobeying God can get you in trouble with Him/obeying him can get you on his good side, because God, as the creator of the Universe laid down the basic rules of 'right' and 'wrong' in a very fundamental way. 'Obeying' what God 'tells' you is the essence of doing what is 'right' simply because it is 'right'. 'Religious' people that just obey the doctrines of their religion are basically just obeying rules, but this isn't so different from atheists obeying secular laws or for that matter the doctrines of various secular ideologies. Of course, secular ideologies can have doctrinal or scientific views of nature (or sometimes history or some such) that claim to have a similarly foundational understanding of 'right' and 'wrong' that religion does, which is to say that environmentalists, liberals, socialists, Nazis and Christians can all honestly say that their actions are not motivated by anything like 'cost-benefit' analysis but rather on an understanding of what is fundamentally right and wrong. It'd be nice not to ascribe to some cheap, Jewy 'cost-benefit' kind of morality and have some more 'noble' understanding of morality, but it seems that when you try to listen to God you can just as easily hear the Devil and not know the difference.
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