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Originally Posted by Zhukov

It doesn't matter one bit. They're both living there now, and nobody here is really jumping to the defence of Hamas.

You are defending the right of Hamas to lob rockets into a sovereign state without recourse.

The idea that they're both living there now only works for the side willing to coexist. Jews were removed from Gaza so that Palestinian-Egyptian-Arabs could create a state. They chose Hamas, and Hamas chose war over working septic systems.

Originally Posted by Zhukov

The general view is that Hamas are awful, but they are going to keep attacking Israel because Israel keeps attacking them.

Re-read what you wrote. Years later you're still viewing this conflict from the perspective of a child. Hamas will keep attacking Israel because that's their goal, genocide. To remove Jews from what they view as Islamic soil. It does not matter if Israel is passive or not, Hamas will keep attacking. It's in their charter.

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Do you honestly think that a huge campaign into Gaza by Israel, killing civilians and ruining what little infrastructure is left, is going to lead to anything but retaliation?

Yes. If successful it will also stop the rockets and put Gaza back into the hands of the Palestinian Authority, who while no better, are being championed as supposed martyrs. This benefits Israel because they refuse to negotiate with Hamas, and the Obama/Clinton administration is going to force their hand. It also shows that Israel will start using the force available to them, despire world opinion. Are you aware that when polled, Ariel Sharon of all people was the name Arabs came up with for which world leader they'd want as their own. Not because they liked him, but because they thought he was crazy enough to fear....

Originally Posted by Zhukov

So when we see the wildly heavy handed retaliation (and pretty much every attack by either side is always going to be a retaliation to something) we are all going to feel angry that so many civilians have died. I don't jump for joy when an Israeli civilian gets killed, I doubt Matt Jack does either, but being detached from the situation as we are, we look at the one sided statistics rather than anything on a personal level.

You're an enabler.

Why is it you only express remorse when civilians are KILLED?
Why not when they are put in danger of being attacked? Why not when Hamas puts their military centers in schools, and mosques, and why not when an entire community allows this, or worse, supports this?

It's laughable that you're that manipulated by statistics by the way....and what the hell is heavy handed in this case? This is big bad human rights violating Israel.... if they wanted to be heavy handed, they death tolls would reflect, you know, tens of thousands, like the ones Syria and Jordan racked up on Palestinians.

It's not lost on me that you're someone who also claimed the security barrier Israel built was also an atrocity.

Originally Posted by Zhukov

I can understand that you feel inclined to defend Israel because of what the state means to you, just as I hope you can understand that a lot of people will have an automatic sense that more civilians killed = wrong, but I do think you have to step back and think of what is going to solve the situation, rather than who is right and who deserves to die more.

Nobody deserves to die.

Israel's approach, and death tolls minimized to 500 prove they are not looking to cause massive death tolls. That's the whole idea of sending in ground troops.

See, I don't think you give a flying shit for Palestinian lives anyway.... and neither does the Arab world. Screwy as it is, Israel is the only state who has really provided them anything constructive, but they also fucked that up by allowing the PLO and Hamas to represent Palestinian Arabs.

Originally Posted by Zhukov

, I'd like to at least know what you think would solve the problem there.

Gaza, and the WB must be returned to their last legal owners under international law, not a 3rd party. Israel has already agreed to give back land, and do it unilaterally, but this must occur between sovereign nations with treaties. Handing over land for further dispute between various feuding Arab factions isn't going to lead to peace.

Palestinians must agree to coexist. The UN must drop their permanent refugee status for Palestinians, which is the only one which includes 3rd and 4th generations, purposely meant to keep this conflict going and going.


Otherwise, it's very simple. The Arab side refuses to coexist, and wants a war... denying this is a war doesn't help either side....denying this war is blossoming into a proxy war with Iran that nobody needs, isn't helping either side....brute force is historically the only thing which has earned respect in the region, and Israel has made the mistake of showing weakness. NO efforts towards peace on Israel's part have ever resulted in peace, or made anyone happy....