"KEVIN HATES JEWS"

[KevinTheOmnivore]

We should just cut to the chase here. This is the thread that Abcdxxxx really wanted to start, so I just figured I'd help him/her out and take away the facade about Zionism (because "Zionism" for him/her is code for anti-semite, clearly).

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Zionism and Herzl are not exclusive, yet you and others constantly use the term as some sort of code, or to suggest a mindset.

Whenever I speak of Zionism as a nationalistic ideology, I ALWAYS make a point to capitalize the word and distinguish it as its own force (like "democrat" and "Democrat," get it Abc????). I am referring to political Zionism.

You are right, it isn't exclusive to Herzl. It was also heavily influenced by people like Moses Hess, who saw Zionism as an opportunity to "Westernize" the "backward" middle east. Nowadays that's called cultural imperialism, right?

It IS nationalism, but not in this dark conspiratory manner that you suggest. If you've ever talked about Zionists as a single united body you are speaking with bigotry.

Of course there have been varying perspectives on Zionism as a political ideology, much like others, as I'm sure you well know. As for the "conspiracy," well, it's a bit naive and revisionist to insinuate that there were no broad, long term intentions by folks such as Herzl (who had taken a leadership role of the political movement around the time of the Dreyfus Affair, despite your dismissive feelings on him). Herzl didn't agree with the prevailing thought in "Palestine" that piece-meal immigration would be effective. He DID believe in mass immigration, he DID believe in removing arabs from their land (with full compensation, of course). The timing in Europe and the middle east was right for this kind of a movement.

If you ever have talked of Zionists being responsible for specific events, as a united body, or idealogy, then you are misinformed and speaking with a bigoted tongue.

This is absurd. Is making the logical assumption that pan-Arabism involves muslims, or that pan-Africanism involves Africans a "bigoted" notion?

Herzl was one voice of many key to the creation of the Zionist movement...a movement designed to provide Jews with a secular homeland. The Zionist movement is incredibly diverse in comparison to something like the African Nationalist movement which rarely gets blamed for instigating tensions in a region full of turmoil in it's own right. It gets singled out in a way that other naionalist movements, or religious homelands never do.

Of course, as I've already stated, it has its dynamics and its various interpretations. But the movement, as spearheaded by Herzl, is the precedent for the modern state of Israel. People disagreed on how to deal with Arabs, much like they do today. But that doesn't mean the overall goal of a Jewish homeland loses focus as the crux of the ideology.

That's wrong. When you interject Zionism out of topic, it's code. You're speaking of Jews. Yo're shifting responsibility on an ethnic group.

It's a movement based the creation of a jewish state. Of COURSE you're speaking of Jews. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm merely stating a reality. A Zionist doesn't need to be Jewish. A jew doesn't need to be a Zionist. I agree, they are distinct.

The same people who point fingers whenever someone is being ethnocentric are often the first ones out with scathing remarks about Zionism with this notion that there is a "secret history" to expose. A dark side. A difference between Zionism and zionism. You're misinformed, and unapologetic... and it makes everything else you say about the region just that much more scary, especially when you turn and call others racist.

There IS a difference, and there's nothing racist about assuming that. I'm not arguing whether or not "Zionism" is bad and "zionism" is good. I'm plainly saying that there IS an ideological, psychological, and political difference. My point has never been that Zionism is rotten, rather, that it has resulted in the circumstances today. Whether that's good or bad is up to personal interpretation.

So I challenge anyone on this board to defend their stance on Zionism. I'm not going to go back into the archives to search and quote every instance of debate involving the term, but if you've said some borderline shit, then chances are you already know who you are... let's hope you're not too lazy this time to stand up for your stance.

I don't think it matters whether or not anybody "defends" themselves. You will call anybody a bigot who disagrees with you even in the slightest. You will criticize with a condescending tone the "wrong books" we've read, and the "wrong classes" we've taken. If only we could all be truly informed and enlightened as you are, because clearly, your simplistic, black/white perspective on matters MUST be right.