Will W meet Cindy Sheehan

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by mburbank

This does not mean, however, that I would accept the administrations word or the quality of their intelligence in future cases of who harbored terrorists or to what degree. Afghanistan was a very rare case. I don't have to agree with Sheehan across the board to be glad she put a little of the human cost into the spotlight for a little while. I was very pleased that she equated her suffering with the suffering of arabs, AKA colateral damage.

I think I agree, and I think it is true that since we have a professional military, coupled with a terribly distant president, there is a degree of disconnect between Iraq the reality, and Iraq the perception. We discussed this in apportioner's conscription thread, whether or not some kind of mandatory service would create greater accountability from the administration (i.e. Vietnam and JFK-- Nixon).

However, I think that lack of investment from the American people goes both ways. It's a fical attitude that makes it easy to both support a war one month and then denounce it a year later. Everyone knew that men and women would die, and I think most knew (particularly the military) that this wouldn't be a conventional war. We all knew the neo-cons were full of shit when they talked about roses and celebrations from Iraqis for their conquering heroes, but there was also a bit of realism from the Pentagon. Everyone knew that pushing democracy in Iraq would mean emancipating a traditionally oppressed majority in Iraq, the Shiites. Knowing this, we knew there'd be opposition from the Sunnis, as well as the Baathist Saddam loyalists. These are things that were predicted, and I don't think it's fair to even President Bush to say that this war is bad because soldiers are dying for a bad reason. Well, most Americans were okay with it at the time, and even though we never found those WMDs, a majority of Americans came out last November and declared that okay, too.

This war has become bad because it won't end fast enough. As we move further and further away from the day we invaded, the public will increasingly turn on the war. Sorry, but for me, it's too little too late. Where were you when thousands of people protested in cities across the country against this war? Now the war has become inconvenient, b/c the Iraqis won't just hurry up and democratize, and AMERICAN SOLDIERS have to die....! Forgive my condescension, but I would fear a country that allowed the whims of its people to entirely dictate foreign policy.

As for the "Well, we never should have done it but now we have to finish the job" argument, there's an element of truth in int, BUT... it all depends on what you think the 'job' is, and wether it can ever be 'finished'. I think the War on Terrorism or Against Global Extremism, or whatever crap the whitehouse PR department is calling it this week can never be won, which is it's foremost value to people who cannot envision an America without a cold war style villian to define themselves against. Iraq is very likely to become an Islamist, Iran style state with us right there, let alone if we leave.

I think you raise some very good points, but when did sober realism dictate your beliefs? I too hate hearing the Iraq invasion twisted into a humanitarian action, because we all know damn well that that was a secondary concern to this administration, if that.

BUT, Bush lies aside, this now IS a humanitarian effort. Iraq may never be a democracy that's friendly to the U.S., and yes, all we may do here is enable radical muslims to over-run another nation. But that's the risk in democracy, and that's what makes freedom truly dangerous and amazing at the same time. Look, we broke it, and it's our job to fix it.

If I thought our presence was doing more good than bad in Iraq, I'd be all for staying, and even if we started the war for all the wrong reasons, I'd think soldiers were dieing for a reason. I don't. I think our presence is making things worse. I think we make it look on daily basis as if the most bizarre claims of I slamist seperatist fanatics are true. I think we take people who have a strong dislike for the US and create an environment in which they can bloom into full fledged suicidal loonies. I think the best thing we could do for Iraq (and it's not a real good deal) is leave.

Well, I disagree. I think a terrorist who would kill aid workers and behead human beings relinquishes all rights to complain. I don't think Syrians, Iranians, and Baathists should be defining the argument here. If we pull out, you will see the same thing you're currently seeing in Gaza right now. Organizations like Hamas will take credit for it, and will know that it works to blow up buses with children on it. Kill some of their soldiers, bump off a few foreign ambassadors, behead some innocent people, and the Americans will run away with their tails tucked under their legs.

I think the president was wrong about WMDs in Iraq, and the invasion was wrong. But make no mistake, look at the "insurgents" flooding into Iraq from other countries. These aren't "minutemen," these are extremists, and they know damn well that Iraq is important. The war wasn't there, but it is now, and the consequences of not respecting that could be dire.