gaza bombing (you knew I was going to bring this up!)

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by MattJack

Abcdx, why are you such an internet hate machine?

Originally Posted by MattJack

Abcd, why do you hate the Palestinians so much?

Originally Posted by MattJack

Abcd, why don't I have a good comeback?

Please demonstrate a history (academically referenced) where:

1. There ever was a nation state, kingdom or self governed principality called "Palestine."
2. That Palestine = Arab nation.
3. That the regional renaming of Israel, Judea and Samaria into "Syria-Palistina/Palestine" was not an act of supersessionist anti-Semitism (committed by the Byzantines)
3. That "Palestinians" were not a politically, and anti-Semitically concocketed nation created to delegitimize Jewish claim on present day Israel.

[DeadKennedys]

THEY'RE ALL DUNE COONS TO ME

KILL EM ALL LET ALLAH SORT EM OUT amirite

[Dirge]

DAJEWZ ARE GETTIN UPPITY. TIME TO THIN THE RANKS AGAIN

[Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Please demonstrate a history (academically referenced) where:

1. There ever was a nation state, kingdom or self governed principality called "Palestine."
2. That Palestine = Arab nation.
3. That the regional renaming of Israel, Judea and Samaria into "Syria-Palistina/Palestine" was not an act of supersessionist anti-Semitism (committed by the Byzantines)
3. That "Palestinians" were not a politically, and anti-Semitically concocketed nation created to delegitimize Jewish claim on present day Israel.

It doesn't matter one bit. They're both living there now, and nobody here is really jumping to the defence of Hamas. The general view is that Hamas are awful, but they are going to keep attacking Israel because Israel keeps attacking them. Do you honestly think that a huge campaign into Gaza by Israel, killing civilians and ruining what little infrastructure is left, is going to lead to anything but retaliation? It works vice versa, of course, but Israel is the so called democracy, and people expect them to be civil and just and generally be more ethical than a terrorist group.

So when we see the wildly heavy handed retaliation (and pretty much every attack by either side is always going to be a retaliation to something) we are all going to feel angry that so many civilians have died. I don't jump for joy when an Israeli civilian gets killed, I doubt Matt Jack does either, but being detached from the situation as we are, we look at the one sided statistics rather than anything on a personal level.

You might be more knowledgeable on the history of Israel, and you might know that the Palestinians were created just to piss them off, and I can understand that you feel inclined to defend Israel because of what the state means to you, just as I hope you can understand that a lot of people will have an automatic sense that more civilians killed = wrong, but I do think you have to step back and think of what is going to solve the situation, rather than who is right and who deserves to die more.

There isn't much hope in the region, and nobody seems to have much hope FOR the region either, So instead of this becoming the merry go round that it usually becomes, and ignoring Geggy posts, I'd like to at least know what you think would solve the problem there.

[derrida]

Solve it with genocide. (anti-Semitically-concocketed-nation-cide) Without further Saudi desalinization projects the few viable aquifiers in Gaza will become increasingly briny from incursions by the Mediterranean. As it stands, in 10 years all irrigated agriculture in Gaza will cease, and the population will collapse due to infant mortality and mass exodus.

To a large degree the conflict is already about water. The settlements in Gaza were easy to clear out mostly because the water situation there is so dire, and with regard to the West Bank it's apparent that Israel's long term strategy is securing the best aquifiers in the region.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

It doesn't matter one bit. They're both living there now, and nobody here is really jumping to the defence of Hamas.

You are defending the right of Hamas to lob rockets into a sovereign state without recourse.

The idea that they're both living there now only works for the side willing to coexist. Jews were removed from Gaza so that Palestinian-Egyptian-Arabs could create a state. They chose Hamas, and Hamas chose war over working septic systems.

Originally Posted by Zhukov

The general view is that Hamas are awful, but they are going to keep attacking Israel because Israel keeps attacking them.

Re-read what you wrote. Years later you're still viewing this conflict from the perspective of a child. Hamas will keep attacking Israel because that's their goal, genocide. To remove Jews from what they view as Islamic soil. It does not matter if Israel is passive or not, Hamas will keep attacking. It's in their charter.

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Do you honestly think that a huge campaign into Gaza by Israel, killing civilians and ruining what little infrastructure is left, is going to lead to anything but retaliation?

Yes. If successful it will also stop the rockets and put Gaza back into the hands of the Palestinian Authority, who while no better, are being championed as supposed martyrs. This benefits Israel because they refuse to negotiate with Hamas, and the Obama/Clinton administration is going to force their hand. It also shows that Israel will start using the force available to them, despire world opinion. Are you aware that when polled, Ariel Sharon of all people was the name Arabs came up with for which world leader they'd want as their own. Not because they liked him, but because they thought he was crazy enough to fear....

Originally Posted by Zhukov

So when we see the wildly heavy handed retaliation (and pretty much every attack by either side is always going to be a retaliation to something) we are all going to feel angry that so many civilians have died. I don't jump for joy when an Israeli civilian gets killed, I doubt Matt Jack does either, but being detached from the situation as we are, we look at the one sided statistics rather than anything on a personal level.

You're an enabler.

Why is it you only express remorse when civilians are KILLED?
Why not when they are put in danger of being attacked? Why not when Hamas puts their military centers in schools, and mosques, and why not when an entire community allows this, or worse, supports this?

It's laughable that you're that manipulated by statistics by the way....and what the hell is heavy handed in this case? This is big bad human rights violating Israel.... if they wanted to be heavy handed, they death tolls would reflect, you know, tens of thousands, like the ones Syria and Jordan racked up on Palestinians.

It's not lost on me that you're someone who also claimed the security barrier Israel built was also an atrocity.

Originally Posted by Zhukov

I can understand that you feel inclined to defend Israel because of what the state means to you, just as I hope you can understand that a lot of people will have an automatic sense that more civilians killed = wrong, but I do think you have to step back and think of what is going to solve the situation, rather than who is right and who deserves to die more.

Nobody deserves to die.

Israel's approach, and death tolls minimized to 500 prove they are not looking to cause massive death tolls. That's the whole idea of sending in ground troops.

See, I don't think you give a flying shit for Palestinian lives anyway.... and neither does the Arab world. Screwy as it is, Israel is the only state who has really provided them anything constructive, but they also fucked that up by allowing the PLO and Hamas to represent Palestinian Arabs.

Originally Posted by Zhukov

, I'd like to at least know what you think would solve the problem there.

Gaza, and the WB must be returned to their last legal owners under international law, not a 3rd party. Israel has already agreed to give back land, and do it unilaterally, but this must occur between sovereign nations with treaties. Handing over land for further dispute between various feuding Arab factions isn't going to lead to peace.

Palestinians must agree to coexist. The UN must drop their permanent refugee status for Palestinians, which is the only one which includes 3rd and 4th generations, purposely meant to keep this conflict going and going.


Otherwise, it's very simple. The Arab side refuses to coexist, and wants a war... denying this is a war doesn't help either side....denying this war is blossoming into a proxy war with Iran that nobody needs, isn't helping either side....brute force is historically the only thing which has earned respect in the region, and Israel has made the mistake of showing weakness. NO efforts towards peace on Israel's part have ever resulted in peace, or made anyone happy....

[Zhukov]

Yeah, I hate Israelis, support Hamas and also Hate Arabs. Your biggest problem Abcdx (apart from putting words in people's mouths and deciding what they believe for them) is that you've got your cause and effect around backwards.

Hamas isn't the root of all the problems, it's the cycle of violence that moves what would otherwise be ordinary, normal, working people to become enraged and want vengeance. Hamas wouldn't exist, or at least, wouldn't be politically important if the Palestinian people didn't feel threatened, and didn't feel the need to defend themselves in such a way. Yes, Hamas manipulates people and is a hugely negative force in people's lives, but they came into power based on a fear of Israel.

Even if this attack did manage to destroy Hamas, the Palestinian people will still hate Israel, most likely even more people will be driven to revenge. They'll just create another Hamas.

I think it's absurd to think that excalating the violence will solve things. Since it hasn't really worked in the past. I mean, it might. Killing every single Palestinian would probably go a long way to reducing rocket attacks. But that's not very adult, right?

[Zhukov]

Also,

[Abcdxxxx]

I don't know, but aren't you the one concerned about a proportionate response? That would mean you're okay with Israel sending about 6000 rockets randomely into Gaza, and blowing up a civilian bus. Nobody is putting words in your mouth, you're just not connecting your own dots.

Hamas didn't originate out of fear of Israel. It may sound good, but it's false. It's also insulting to suggest Palestinians found religion only out of fear of Israel, which is what you are inadvertantly implying. Look into the origins of Hamas. It predates the intifada, and even predates Israel's initial support for the group.

Likewise, you are aware pogroms against Jews in the region predate modern Israel, and formalized Zionism right? Israel isn't the source of hatred, it's just an excuse.

Unfortunately, there has never been peace in the Mid-East without an escalation in violence, the likes of which the Palestinian Arabs have never engaged in.

[Zhukov]

I'm not saying that Hamas was created recently because of Israeli attacks, I was implying that they have political weight because of Israeli attacks.

Jews might have been a target for past hatred, and Israel might have just been an excuse for that hatred, and probably still is to an extent, but you said yourself that it's not about religion, and that Jews and Arabs are capable of getting along together.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by Zhukov

I'm not saying that Hamas was created recently because of Israeli attacks, I was implying that they have political weight because of Israeli attacks.

Israeli attacks have little to do with the Hamas rise of power. Gaza was Islamicized back during the early 80's. Look into the Islamic University actions in 1980.

The idea that a sovereign nation fighting guerilla armies who seek to overthrow only strengthens militant terrorists is just a spin. You were questioning why Israel even allowed Hamas to get to this point, which is a good example of Israel being damned if they do, or damned if they don't. Mind you, it was your theory that kept Arafat out of Israel targets.

See, the tendency to think Israel is masterminding, and pulling the puppet strings from both sides is a bit silly. In truth, they've really just made bad choices in the face of unparallaled scrutiny. They've always doublt dealt with enemies, and tried to be shrewd...as have the Arabs on the other end.

Originally Posted by Zhukov

Jews might have been a target for past hatred, and Israel might have just been an excuse for that hatred, and probably still is to an extent, but you said yourself that it's not about religion, and that Jews and Arabs are capable of getting along together.

Well remember, Islam was politicized and went through a reformation, which is the real roots of a group like Hamas. The Pan-Arab/Pan-Islam program attempted to create a common enemy to bind them.