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Old Apr 1st, 2010, 01:11 PM       
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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Well, then they are a terrorist state. Usually. Or more aptly, a 'rogue' state. I like that. Haha. Rogue from what? Rogue from doing what we think you should be doing.
No, read my responses to Ant. They'd be a state conducting state terror.


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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Well that's where I look at aims. Are you shooting soldiers to scare the soldiers, or are you shooting them because they are shooting you, or because they will shoot you tomorrow, or because they killed your family, or because they will kill another family or friendly soldiers? It can be revenge, it can be a genuine military goal, but if your aim is anything less than inspiring terror, I personally don't think it counts.
You are looking at individual's acts, not the overall goals of the terrorist group. By this definition there are no terrorists. Also I have distinguished that it is terrorism if the target is a noncombatant so engaging a soldier out on patrol would not be terrorism.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
They weren't trying to get the German government to recognise their rights, they were just trying to hamper the military as much as possible. If that involves killing soldiers, blowing up trains, whatever, then so be it. They didn't do it to scare anyone, so I don't see it as terrorism. Did they sometimes utilise terror tactics? Sure. As you pointed out, they killed collaborators. The people who did that were terrorists.
Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Really, you are saying that ANY fighting is terrorism, since even shooting back at an enemy soldier is inducing terror in the now dead soldier's family back home, or the squad mates. If all fighting is terrorism then it sort of defeats the purpose of there being 'fighting' and 'terrorism'.
They have to be targeting noncombatants: off duty soldiers or civilians. They also have to be non state actors.


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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
Well I don't know what you mean by terrorism anymore. Anyway, I don't think that the success of such operations have anything to do with the morals of them. I do think that peaceful negotiating and "ethical" armed resistance has probably done better in the eyes of history than killing civilians.
I defined terrorism previously. Morality is ambiguous, as demonstrated by your use of "ethical" armed resistance. Is it ethical for you to kill my brother just because he's a soldier occupying your homeland? From my perspective, no. What morality has to do with sucess is when a effective tactic is found but it would normally be unjustifiable, such as suicide terrorism, there can be ways to morally justify it. The Russian civilians in the subways were Russian citizens. They pay taxes which finance the Russian military who are the enemy. They are part of the enemy. Killing them is like killing a soldier.

Right there you have the justification for killing innocent people. You just have to make them not innocent.
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Old Apr 1st, 2010, 01:52 PM       
I guess we're getting down to definitions here. I define terrorism as an act that inflicts terror, with the goal of inflicting terror. You say it's individuals or non state (or unrecognised state) groups when they target non-combatants.

It's WWII. Let's say that there is an old Belorussian man that sends the German garrison a carton of milk every two days so that they can have healthy teeth and bones, simply because it's a nice thing to do. Let's say he has no family, friends or contacts. He is a hermit. The Germans don't know who sends the milk they just guzzle it like the filthy swine they are. The local partisans send out someone to kill him, because they want the Germans to have weak bones so that fighting on the front lines they will drop their guns and not kill so many sons of the motherland.

So the partisan kills the old man by clubbing him in the back of the head. He dies, and the Partisan buries him in his backyard. Nobody knows about the killing, nobody cares, but an operative of an unlawful group has killed a non combatant. Is that terrorism?


I say no, it's just murder.

You can't get bogged down with definitions when you are defining the actors rather than the act. Much more logical and precise to identify whether the act itself is terrorism, by looking at the aims and outcomes of the act.

Quote:
You are looking at individual's acts, not the overall goals of the terrorist group.
True. Ok. You can be a terrorist if you are part of a group that commits terrorist acts (my definition). That is fair enough. In the examples I have put forward I never stated if said hypothetical person was part of a group though. If they are part of a terrorist group, then yes, they are a terrorist using at that point in time non-terrorist tactics. If they aren't part of a terrorist group, then they are not a terrorist, since they are not using terror tactics (my definition). My example of the partisan killing the old man, is the act an act of terror? Not in my defining of the word. Is the partisan a terrorist for that act? No. Is he a terrorist if he belongs to a group that regularly dips into the pool of terrorist tactics, knows about the use of these tactics and doesn't disagree with them? Yes.

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The aim of both of those is to cause a withdrawal of military forces
Yes, but I was looking slightly less far into the future. Same future aim (no more soldiers in my country), same act (blowing yourself up), different .. uh, bit in the middle? The history of warfare is not always about killing the enemy soldiers until they are dead, it's usually about killing the enemy soldiers until they give up. Anyway, I think once you put on the uniform, swear the oath of allegiance and what not, then you are representing your nation, it's morals and values, and you are responsible for it. I think a soldier is a fair target for disagreement. All subjective of course to what you are disagreeing over. Am I babbling and not making sense? It's nearly 5am.
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Old Apr 1st, 2010, 02:03 PM       
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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
I guess we're getting down to definitions here. I define terrorism as an act that inflicts terror, with the goal of inflicting terror. You say it's individuals or non state (or unrecognised state) groups when they target non-combatants.
non-state actors who use violence or the threat of violence against noncombatants to coerce individuals or governments into adopting change.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
It's WWII. Let's say that there is an old Belorussian man that sends the German garrison a carton of milk every two days so that they can have healthy teeth and bones, simply because it's a nice thing to do. Let's say he has no family, friends or contacts. He is a hermit. The Germans don't know who sends the milk they just guzzle it like the filthy swine they are. The local partisans send out someone to kill him, because they want the Germans to have weak bones so that fighting on the front lines they will drop their guns and not kill so many sons of the motherland.

So the partisan kills the old man by clubbing him in the back of the head. He dies, and the Partisan buries him in his backyard. Nobody knows about the killing, nobody cares, but an operative of an unlawful group has killed a non combatant. Is that terrorism?


I say no, it's just murder.
Correct, they were not attempting to affect wider change. Their intent was to merely kill the dude supplying the milk, not to cause Nazi withdrawal or influence anyone.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
You can't get bogged down with definitions when you are defining the actors rather than the act. Much more logical and precise to identify whether the act itself is terrorism, by looking at the aims and outcomes of the act.
Whether or not someone or a group is a terrorist is defined by their actions or intent. Read my definition.

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Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
If they are part of a terrorist group, then yes, they are a terrorist using at that point in time non-terrorist tactics. If they aren't part of a terrorist group, then they are not a terrorist, since they are not using terror tactics (my definition). My example of the partisan killing the old man, is the act an act of terror? Not in my defining of the word. Is the partisan a terrorist for that act? No. Is he a terrorist if he belongs to a group that regularly dips into the pool of terrorist tactics, knows about the use of these tactics and doesn't disagree with them? Yes.
An individual can use terror tactics. The underwear bomber was not sent out by Al Qaeda, he was not given that mission from them. Yes, he had ties to terrorist groups but he was acting of his own individual accord. Look at my definition for why I would count a individual such as he as a terrorist.


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Yes, but I was looking slightly less far into the future. Same future aim (no more soldiers in my country), same act (blowing yourself up), different .. uh, bit in the middle? The history of warfare is not always about killing the enemy soldiers until they are dead, it's usually about killing the enemy soldiers until they give up. Anyway, I think once you put on the uniform, swear the oath of allegiance and what not, then you are representing your nation, it's morals and values, and you are responsible for it. I think a soldier is a fair target for disagreement. All subjective of course to what you are disagreeing over. Am I babbling and not making sense? It's nearly 5am.
See my definition. ;/ And you're making sense.
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Old Apr 2nd, 2010, 03:36 AM       
Not really much disagreement going on here, I think it's just that we've both got different definitions, I think yours is probably closer to what the official line is, but I like mine better. I lean towards every action being subjective at the time, rather than trying to fit it into pre defined categories, easy enough to say, maybe not easy enough to do. Especially when you are a government, and require a stance on such actions at all times.

What's your paper about?


Oh, and you said that the partisan killing the old man was both a terrorist and not a terrorist.
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Old Apr 2nd, 2010, 03:40 AM       
Hang on, I was going to ask:

What if your non-state actor causing a violent act on a non-combatant isn't trying to affect change? What if they are simply doing this act for the sake of it? Say, blowing up a hospital simply for the act of causing terror and panic in the population?

By me, it's terrorism. Causing terror. But if they aren't doing it to affect change with the government or individuals, is it terrorism to you?
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Old Apr 12th, 2010, 12:52 PM       
Leader, Leader Leader. Time to grow up, stop being naïve already.

You obviously still can't come to grips with the basic truth that THE US IS A STATE WHICH SPONSORS TERRORISM. (see, I typed in ALL CAPS so it must be true) If you don't believe me, read the link posted a few short pages ago:

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Grant Of Taxpayer-Funded U.S. Asylum For Chechen Terror Envoy Gave Obama Foreign Policy Guru Zbigniew Brzezinski “One Of The Happiest Days Of My Life”

http://tarpley.net/2008/02/03/obama-...hen-terrorism/
Keep listening to me, and eventually you will agree that I am right and you are wrong.

And don't listen to that Flagg person. He's an idiot.
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Old Apr 12th, 2010, 02:40 PM       
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You obviously still can't come to grips with the basic truth that THE US IS A STATE WHICH SPONSORS TERRORISM.
We actually have.

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And don't listen to that Flagg person. He's an idiot.
I know right? Thinks that he knows everything ever just because he has some stupid science degree paper. That shit doesn't matter, this is the real world, not a classroom.
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Colonel Flagg Colonel Flagg is offline
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Old Apr 12th, 2010, 03:45 PM       
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I know right? Thinks that he knows everything ever just because he has some stupid science degree paper. That shit doesn't matter, this is the real world, not a classroom.
Damned right!

Youtube it.
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