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Chojin Chojin is offline
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Old May 5th, 2010, 08:09 PM       
Quote:
They don't always pass through the bowels, most of the time they get absorbed and stored in fat deposits.
source? because that's stupid.

Quote:
I think the first part of your statement is somewhat contradictory. If there are "limits" then you can't eat all you want...right?
it's not contradictory. "you can eat all you want within limits." it's maybe slightly redundant? why cannot you english

Quote:
Food additive free diets are proven to produce quick results in the health of a regular individual no matter the age.
health? yes. fat? no.

Quote:
MSG is injected into laboratory rats to induce obesity. It also has been shown to increase appetite in male rats and to induce obesity in female rats and chickens. Scientists in Spain have recently concluded that MSG when given to mice increase appetite by as much as 40%.
msg is actually pretty natural (no less natural than table sugar, anyway). it's contained naturally in beets and seaweed, among other things. but why bring up msg? we were talking about trans fats.

Quote:
High fructose corn syrup is not sugar. Its a synthetic based sweetner which are grown from genetically modified corn. The phrase "High Fructose" in HFCS indicates that it has a higher fructose level.
Fructose itself is a sugar contained in fruits. I understand that HFCS is different and wasn't confusing fructose with HFCS. That said, I don't understand what sort of distinction you're attempting to make here--sucrose is a sweetener, fructose is a sweetener, and HFCS is a sweetener. By pretty much even the strictest definition, HFCS is also a sugar, and appears on nutritional labels that way.

Quote:
This higher level of fructose puts a lot of pressure on the body. There is a difference between sugar and sweetners and they have very different effects on the people who use them.
Maybe? But all sugars (or "sweeteners" if you insist on defining them differently even though they're not) have the same effects on blood sugar and insulin levels, which is the point I was making in the first place.

Quote:
Then we can also agree that this synthetic form of sweetner has a different chemical make up than normal sugar. Which would then lead us to believe that synthetic forms of food and food additives are the most likely culprit to obesity.
uh, why? for one thing, fructose has a different chemical compound than sucrose and both are very natural. for another, sugars are a nonessential nutrient. are you implying that someone cannot VERY VERY EASILY get fat without sugar and/or synthetic foods?
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Old May 6th, 2010, 11:54 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
source? because that's stupid.
Tadao said we aren't allowed to post articles anymore. Have to take it up with him. I'm sure if you search engine "Food additives / Chemicals absorbed through ingestion" you will find a tons of literature on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
it's not contradictory. "you can eat all you want within limits." it's maybe slightly redundant? why cannot you english
"Within Limits" and "All you can eat" are contradictory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
health? yes. fat? no.
Wouldn't they be one in the same? Yes, the Human body needs fat supplies to survive but if one is over weight due to the amount of toxic chemicals, preservative, and additive in the food they eat (I'm not even going to mention GMO) wouldn't that make them unhealthy?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
msg is actually pretty natural (no less natural than table sugar, anyway). it's contained naturally in beets and seaweed, among other things. but why bring up msg? we were talking about trans fats.
I've never came across someone who actually defended MSG. Its a well known excitotoxin. Remember back in the day when all the Chinese Food restaurants had signs on their places that said "NO MSG here"? And food makers use the synthetic form of MSG. Dr. Russel Blaylock has some good videos up on Youtube about the effects of MSG, obesity, and neurological disorders because of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
, HFCS is also a sugar, and appears on nutritional labels that way.
HFCS are not regular sugar. They are synthetic and the fructose levels are higher. Regular organic cane sugar has 50 Fructose / 50 Glucose. The body can't handle the high amount of fructose from HFCS and it literally rots out the pancreas while also making the individual put on masses amounts of weight.

Now add some food additives like MSG and you an Obesity epidemic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
Maybe? But all sugars (or "sweeteners" if you insist on defining them differently even though they're not) have the same effects on blood sugar and insulin levels, which is the point I was making in the first place.
I think my above response counters your argument.

Quote:
"Historically, we never consumed much sugar," said Barry Popkin of the University of North Carolina, and a health policy adviser for the U.S. government. "We're not built to process it."
And this quote is from the original article at the beginning of the thread. The first thing I say to myself after reading this is if we're not built to process this.......then how can we possibly be built to process synthetics, preservatives, additives, and other genetically modified ingredients?
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Old May 6th, 2010, 01:04 PM       
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I must be learning disabled because this is what coolinters post look like to me.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 02:30 PM       
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Originally Posted by TheCoolinator View Post
The first thing I say to myself after reading this is if we're not built to process this.......then how can we possibly be built to process synthetics, preservatives, additives, and other genetically modified ingredients?

You shouldn't believe everything you read, nor take it literally. One proof of the fact that human GI tract is build to process sugars are the various glucosidases we have.

We aren't built to process synthetics, preservatives, additives etc., they are built to mimic the ingredients that we can process.

Also, please read this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Leader
I heard that we do need to intake sugar and the reason we have such a voracious craving for it is because it is normally so scarce in a human's diet. The problem is that now we have ready access to it and put it in everything our bodies cannot handle the amount we're getting so we get the diabetes and other such complications which were relatively unheard of even a hundred years ago.
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You're so fucking fat Rankeri seriously
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Old May 6th, 2010, 03:17 PM       
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Originally Posted by RaNkeri View Post
You shouldn't believe everything you read, nor take it literally. One proof of the fact that human GI tract is build to process sugars are the various glucosidases we have.

We aren't built to process synthetics, preservatives, additives etc., they are built to mimic the ingredients that we can process.
Listen to RannyK - he knows all about sugar.

Speaking of "doctorin'" - how's med school? You are still in med school, right?
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Old May 6th, 2010, 04:43 PM       
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Originally Posted by Colonel Flagg View Post
Speaking of "doctorin'" - how's med school? You are still in med school, right?
Yes, and everything's fine


I actually posted the exact same thing earlier, but coolie promptly ignored it.
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You're so fucking fat Rankeri seriously
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Chojin Chojin is offline
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Old May 6th, 2010, 03:36 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoolinator View Post
Tadao said we aren't allowed to post articles anymore. Have to take it up with him. I'm sure if you search engine "Food additives / Chemicals absorbed through ingestion" you will find a tons of literature on it.
You're allowed to post links to support an argument. You aren't allowed to post only links in lieu of making an argument.

But if I understand what you're saying, it's that harmful stuff likes to live in fat. Okay? It doesn't increase fat, though.

Quote:
"Within Limits" and "All you can eat" are contradictory.


"Within limits" is a disclaimer, without which my statement could have meant that I thought someone could chug 10 pounds of pure cholesterol and be a-ok. "All you can eat" refers to the normal or even most excessive amounts of a food that someone would eat. Do you give similar shit to people who run buffets? OH HO HO IT IS NOT ALL I CAN EAT IF YOU KICK ME OUT AFTER I STAY HERE FOR 16 HOURS AND TRY TO SLEEP IN THE BOOTH, I WAS NOT DONE

Quote:
Wouldn't they be one in the same? Yes, the Human body needs fat supplies to survive but if one is over weight due to the amount of toxic chemicals, preservative, and additive in the food they eat (I'm not even going to mention GMO) wouldn't that make them unhealthy?
No. Fat is not always equatable to poor health. Your body needs a certain percentage of bodyfat, and that requirement actually goes up the more active you are. Cyanide is also pretty unhealthy but isn't linked to obesity. Not all fat is unhealthy and not all unhealthy crap is fattening. Kinda obvious.

Quote:
I've never came across someone who actually defended MSG. Its a well known excitotoxin. Remember back in the day when all the Chinese Food restaurants had signs on their places that said "NO MSG here"? And food makers use the synthetic form of MSG. Dr. Russel Blaylock has some good videos up on Youtube about the effects of MSG, obesity, and neurological disorders because of it.
I didn't defend MSG, I just said that it's pretty natural as additives go. Your argument was originally that synthetics were unhealthy and therefore fattening. MSG isn't really a synthetic.

I've noticed, though, that you're more than willing to divorce yourself from whatever point you're making to attack whatever you perceive to be the weakest part of my point.

Why? I'm not setting you straight on nutrition because I love internet combat, I'm doing it because there's a lot of stupid misinformation out there and your perception was especially stupid. I felt that I must stop you before someone listens, and maybe you could learn something in the process and not misinform people in real life who likely don't know any better.

Quote:
HFCS are not regular sugar. They are synthetic and the fructose levels are higher. Regular organic cane sugar has 50 Fructose / 50 Glucose. The body can't handle the high amount of fructose from HFCS and it literally rots out the pancreas while also making the individual put on masses amounts of weight.
Everything but the last sentence: Who cares?
The last sentence: why would it make someone 'put on masses amounts of weight' any more than any other sweetener?

Quote:
Now add some food additives like MSG and you an Obesity epidemic.
How? HFCS is no more to blame for fatness than any other kind of sugar (replace your mountain dew habit with "mountain dew throwback" and let me know how much weight you lose), and MSG doesn't make people fat. HFCS and MSG may be unhealthy, but as we've already established, poisons are not necessarily fattening. They aren't even usually fattening.

Quote:
And this quote is from the original article at the beginning of the thread. The first thing I say to myself after reading this is if we're not built to process this.......then how can we possibly be built to process synthetics, preservatives, additives, and other genetically modified ingredients?
Because synthetics are simply non-organic breakdowns of whole sources. Your body organically breaks down the same sources into usable compounds that share 99.9999% of the same characteristics. You might as well ask why we can perceive fluorescent light.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:14 PM       
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Originally Posted by Esuohlim View Post
Well it's just that alcohol is considered a toxin that the human body does not need to function so I'm just wondering what your opinion is on it
Like I said before,

People don't use alcohol to brush there teeth nor is it added to the municipal water supply. Sodium Fluoride is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
But if I understand what you're saying, it's that harmful stuff likes to live in fat. Okay? It doesn't increase fat, though.
I'm just stating that unnatural chemicals added to food find their way to fat deposits because they are difficult to digest and the body has no use for them. They can also interfere with the normal digestion process making it inefficient.

This quote is from the original article on page 1 of this thread:
Quote:
"This is the first evidence we have that fructose increases diabetes and heart disease independently from causing simple weight gain," lead researcher Kimber Stanhope said. "We didn't see any of these changes in the people eating glucose."

The effect seems to occur because fructose is not broken down in the digestive system like other sugars are. Instead, it moves directly into the liver, where it interferes with that organ's ability to process fat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
No. Fat is not always equatable to poor health.
I understand that. We all need some fat in our bodies. That's understood. Hence why I stated that word for word in my last response. I'm saying that obese people who have been eating junk artificial chemical ridden food are unhealthy and they are obese because they eat too much high calorie food AND they are eating foods laced with these chemicals.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
I didn't defend MSG, I just said that it's pretty natural as additives go. Your argument was originally that synthetics were unhealthy and therefore fattening. MSG isn't really a synthetic.
See, it's either synthetic or its organic. You can't have both. The junk they use in our food that has been studied in laboratories to make rats obese and double their appetites are synthetic. It's added to most food and its under numerous names.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
Everything but the last sentence: Who cares?
The last sentence: why would it make someone 'put on masses amounts of weight' any more than any other sweetener?
Who cares?

You can't compare the two substances. Sugar and HFCS are extremely different substances and have very different effects on the body. Hence the article I posted in the beginning.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
How? HFCS is no more to blame for fatness than any other kind of sugar (replace your mountain dew habit with "mountain dew throwback" and let me know how much weight you lose), and MSG doesn't make people fat. HFCS and MSG may be unhealthy, but as we've already established, poisons are not necessarily fattening. They aren't even usually fattening.
It's scientifically proven that people who eat diets high in HFCS, MSG, and other additives weigh more and are less healthy then people who don't eat these substances.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
Because synthetics are simply non-organic breakdowns of whole sources.
They are called synthetics for a reason. They are chemicals put together in a lab to mimic the natural chemicals.

Even if they taste the same or have no taste at all the body still has to take different steps to break down these synthetic chemicals. Like I said with HFCS. The body is acknowledges organic sugar cane with its 50 % glucose / fructose structure. If you change that structure the body has added pressure put on its organs.

These synthetics are not safe. They never have been. They are just cheaper substitutes for real ingredients. They are dangerous and they lead to obesity and other degenerative ailments.


Articles:

Quote:
Study Finds High-Fructose Corn Syrup Contains Mercury

Almost half of tested samples of commercial high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) contained mercury, which was also found in nearly a third of 55 popular brand-name food and beverage products where HFCS is the first- or second-highest labeled ingredient, according to two new U.S. studies.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012601831.html
Quote:
High-Fructose Corn Syrup and Diabetes

Roughly $40 billion in federal subsidies are going to pay corn growers, so that corn syrup is able to replace cane sugar. corn syrup has been singled out by many health experts as one of the chief culprits of rising obesity, because corn syrup does not turn off appetite. Since the advent of corn syrup, consumption of all sweeteners has soared, as have people's weights. According to a 2004 study reported in the American journal of Clinical Nutrition, the rise of Type-2 diabetes since 1980 has closely paralleled the increased use of sweeteners, particularly corn syrup.
- There Is a Cure for Diabetes: The Tree of Life 21-Day+ Program by Gabriel Cousens
- Available on Amazon.com

http://www.naturalnews.com/026468_su...orn_syrup.html
Quote:
Surprise Ingredients in Fast Food

The seasoned beef, carne asada steak, spicy shredded chicken, and even the rice all include autolyzed yeast extract (hidden MSG). Disodium inosinate and disodium guanylate are flavor enhancers used in synergy with MSG [7,8]. Therefore, menu items with disodium inosinate and/or disodium guanylate also contain MSG. This includes the avocado ranch dressing, southwest chicken, citrus salsa, creamy jalapeno sauce, creamy lime sauce, lime seasoned red strips, pepper jack sauce, and seasoned rice.

http://www.naturalnews.com/022194.html
Quote:
The link between monosodium glutamate (MSG) and obesity

But how does MSG cause obesity? Like aspartame, MSG is an excitotoxin, a substance that overexcites neurons to the point of cell damage and, eventually, cell death. Humans lack a blood-brain barrier in the hypothalamus, which allows excitotoxins to enter the brain and cause damage, according to Dr. Russell L. Blaylock in his book Excitotoxins. According to animal studies, MSG creates a lesion in the hypothalamus that correlates with abnormal development, including obesity, short stature and sexual reproduction problems.

http://www.naturalnews.com/009379.html
Quote:
Consuming Common Food Additive MSG Increases Risk of Weight Gain

http://www.naturalnews.com/025353_MSG_food_brain.html
Quote:
Consumption of soft drinks and high-fructose corn syrup linked to obesity and diabetes

http://www.naturalnews.com/003002.html
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Chojin Chojin is offline
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:40 PM       
Okay, no, that is not how you use articles. When you link to an article, you do so after paraphrasing it when you're making your point. The way you did it, you didn't even cite anything and I'd have to read all of that shit to tell you that it doesn't support your conclusions (aka what I already know).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCoolinator View Post
I'm just stating that unnatural chemicals added to food find their way to fat deposits because they are difficult to digest and the body has no use for them. They can also interfere with the normal digestion process making it inefficient.
If your body can't digest it, it passes it. How inefficient does it make the digestion process? My money says "not enough to actually matter".

Quote:
"This is the first evidence we have that fructose increases diabetes and heart disease independently from causing simple weight gain," lead researcher Kimber Stanhope said. "We didn't see any of these changes in the people eating glucose."

The effect seems to occur because fructose is not broken down in the digestive system like other sugars are. Instead, it moves directly into the liver, where it interferes with that organ's ability to process fat.
This is funny because it doesn't support your point. To paraphase part 1: all sugar makes you fat, HFCS is just also kinda poisonous. Okay. They agree with me here that HFCS doesn't make people any more fat than other sweeteners do. Part 2: what happens to improperly processed fat? Does it somehow become SUPER FAT and double in size? Apply critical thinking here.

Quote:
I understand that. We all need some fat in our bodies. That's understood. Hence why I stated that word for word in my last response. I'm saying that obese people who have been eating junk artificial chemical ridden food are unhealthy and they are obese because they eat too much high calorie food AND they are eating foods laced with these chemicals.
Your most recent point was that anything that is unhealthy is also fattening. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's how you wrote it. The cause for obesity is 99% high calorie food and maybe, maybe 1% due to Dr. Robotnik's evil chemicals. The entire reason there's so much literature on the subject in the mass media is that people want to believe that something other than themselves is to blame. You are propagating that myth with this nonsense.

Quote:
See, it's either synthetic or its organic. You can't have both. The junk they use in our food that has been studied in laboratories to make rats obese and double their appetites are synthetic. It's added to most food and its under numerous names.
You are confusing cause and effect. Very likely, the rats became obese because the MSG increased their appetite and they therefore increased their calorie intake. This is very different from MSG directly making them fat.

Quote:
You can't compare the two substances. Sugar and HFCS are extremely different substances and have very different effects on the body. Hence the article I posted in the beginning.
You can compare the two substances because they have the same effects on the body and have the same exact nutritional content. HFCS just also has some purported side effects, none of which are convincingly related to obesity. The negative side effects of HFCS are tremendously irrelevant when compared to the negative direct effects of all sugars.

Quote:
It's scientifically proven that people who eat diets high in HFCS, MSG, and other additives weigh more and are less healthy then people who don't eat these substances.
You are again confusing cause and effect. People with diets high in HFCS and MSG are already eating calorie-dense garbage. The foods that don't contain those things are lesser in scope. By eating HFCS and MSG, we know that those people are eating junk foods, since those are the only foods that contain that crap. We do not know the same things about people who do not eat HFCS and MSG. This does not imply that HFCS and MSG are to blame. If you cut HFCS and MSG out of your diet, you are also cutting a lot of garbage out that incidentally contains that crap.

Again, the calorie content of a 20oz mountain dew (with HFCS) and a 20oz mountain dew throwback (without HFCS) is the EXACT SAME. Are you seriously suggesting that someone would gain less weight when drinking the throwback?

Quote:
They are called synthetics for a reason. They are chemicals put together in a lab to mimic the natural chemicals.

Even if they taste the same or have no taste at all the body still has to take different steps to break down these synthetic chemicals. Like I said with HFCS. The body is acknowledges organic sugar cane with its 50 % glucose / fructose structure. If you change that structure the body has added pressure put on its organs.
Define "pressure on the organs". I'm beginning to think that you're just regurgitating language you read in some womens' fitness magazine.

Quote:
These synthetics are not safe. They never have been. They are just cheaper substitutes for real ingredients.
They're safe enough to pass FDA standards, which means that any poisons they contain are trace enough to not matter.

Quote:
They are dangerous and they lead to obesity and other degenerative ailments.
This is misleading. A cherry-flavored bullet is also dangerous to the head, but it isn't the cherry that does it.

Last edited by Chojin : May 6th, 2010 at 06:51 PM.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 07:00 PM       
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Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
If your body can't digest it, it passes it. How inefficient does it make the digestion process? My money says "not enough to actually matter".
Your body absorbed a lot of materials. There is no one in your GI tract that is saying picking out which material is good or not. Most of what you eat gets into your body and if your body doesn't recognize it or doesn't use it, it goes into fat deposits and festers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
This is funny because it doesn't support your point. To paraphase part 1: all sugar makes you fat, HFAC is just also kinda poisonous. Okay.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
They agree with me here that HFAC doesn't make people any more fat than other sweeteners do. Part 2: what happens to improperly processed fat?
Quote:
Participants in the fructose group, however, showed an increase of fat cells around major organs including their hearts and livers, and also underwent metabolic changes that are precursors to heart disease and diabetes.
Quote:
"We didn't see any of these changes in the people eating glucose."
Quote:
fructose is not broken down in the digestive system like other sugars are. Instead, it moves directly into the liver, where it interferes with that organ's ability to process fat.
Quote:
High-Fructose Corn Syrup and Diabetes

corn syrup has been singled out by many health experts as one of the chief culprits of rising obesity, because corn syrup does not turn off appetite. Since the advent of corn syrup, consumption of all sweeteners has soared, as have people's weights. According to a 2004 study reported in the American journal of Clinical Nutrition, the rise of Type-2 diabetes since 1980 has closely paralleled the increased use of sweeteners, particularly corn syrup.
- There Is a Cure for Diabetes: The Tree of Life 21-Day+ Program by Gabriel Cousens
- Available on Amazon.com

http://www.naturalnews.com/026468_su...orn_syrup.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
Your most recent point was that anything that is unhealthy is also fattening.
No,

I said that obese people aren't healthy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
Very likely, the rats became obese because the MSG increased their appetite and they therefore increased their calorie intake. This is very different from MSG directly making them fat.
No,

So right here we have a laboratory study that says the food additive (that shouldn't be in the food in the first place) induces obesity AND ALSO has been shown to increase appetite.

Either way you cut it, it still causes obesity.

Quote:
MSG-Induced Obesity

MSG is injected into laboratory rats to induce obesity.


It also has been shown to increase appetite in male rats and to induce obesity in female rats and chickens. Scientists in Spain have recently concluded that MSG when given to mice increase appetite by as much as 40%.


http://www.msgtruth.org/obesity.htm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
You can compare the two substances because they have the same effects on the body and have the same exact nutritional content
There is a quote above that counters your statement. They do not have the same effect on the body nor do they have the same structure and they certainly do not have the same nutritional content.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
HFAC just also has some purported side effects, none of which are convincingly related to obesity. The negative side effects of HFAC are tremendously irrelevant when compared to the negative direct effects of all sugars.

One more time for good measure.

Quote:
fructose is not broken down in the digestive system like other sugars are. Instead, it moves directly into the liver, where it interferes with that organ's ability to process fat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
Again, the calorie content of a 20oz mountain dew (with HFAC) and a 20oz mountain dew throwback (without HFAC) is the EXACT SAME. Are you seriously suggesting that someone would gain less weight when drinking the throwback?
Yes,

Because it doesn't contain HFCS that cannot be broken down and interes with the livers ability to process fat. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.

HFCS, as you stated, has dangerous side effect and induces obesity much like other food additives.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
Define "pressure on the organs".
Re-read the quotes



Quote:
Originally Posted by Chojin View Post
They're safe enough to pass FDA standards, which means that any poisons they contain are trace enough to not matter
People who believe what the FDA says usually die and their families have to sue for damages.

VIOXX anyone?
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