Re: Martin Fowler and the meaning of life

[theapportioner]

Originally Posted by Sethomas

Then why not admit defeat and kill oneself? That's what it's all about, isn't it? Or are you saying there's a better question to be asked?

More the latter. I think the question "what is the meaning of life?" is ill-posed and too ambiguous to be meaningful, heh. Meaning for whom? Life in general? Human life? An individual's life? Your life?

And what do you mean by meaning? Teleology? An end, or purpose to life? The value of life? The function of life? I think if you mean to say "purpose of life" that's one thing, maybe more explicable, but the concept "meaning of life" is strange to me. "Meaning of your life", or mine, that may be easier to understand.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

This is the best thread ever....EVER!

[kahljorn]

I was just talking about this recently because it seems that regardless of what the universe is, the "Ultimate End" we can reach is either non-existent or meaningless.

[FartinMowler]

Why would you talk about it if it were meaningless? Maybe you guys should study social ineptness.

[kahljorn]

uhh, because the point is in finding out if it IS meaningless. Also, if it is meaningless it dispels like 95% of everybody's personal belief system.

fartin, saying things like that is really stupid ;(

Am I the only one who thinks it's strange when people rag on philosophy? Especially in this modern age which is largely the summation of philosophy.

ps 3) Don't be an anti-topic poster. I know we all do it, but let's try to stop it. For example, if there's a thread on gay rights, feel free to post in support or opposition to the issue. However, if you make a post that says something like "omg, guys, why are we talking about this, it sucks, lol," I'll delete it. An abundance of stupid posts will drown out the quality posts, which we don't want happening. that's you fartin
Although I thought your question was a good question, I can just feel your anti-topic pretention through the computer.

[FartinMowler]

I can just feel your anti-topic pretention through the computer.

I'm watching A&E Biography of Courntey Love and I'm making an Egg sandwich

[Grislygus]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

ps 3) Don't be an anti-topic poster. I know we all do it, but let's try to stop it. For example, if there's a thread on gay rights, feel free to post in support or opposition to the issue. However, if you make a post that says something like "omg, guys, why are we talking about this, it sucks, lol," I'll delete it.

Kahljorn can delete other people's posts?!

[kahljorn]

"These tasks, and therefore the meaning of life, differ from man to man, and from moment to moment. Thus it is impossible to define the meaning of life in a general way. Questions about the meaning of life can never be answered by sweeping statements. "Life" does not mean something vague, but something very real and concrete, just as life's tasks are also very real and conrete. They form man's destiny, which is different and unique for each individual. No man and no destiny can be compared with any other man or any other destiny. No situation repeats itself, and each situations calls for a different response. Sometimes the situation in which a man finds himself may require him to shape his own fate by action. At other times it is more advatageous for him to make use of an opportunity for contemplation and to realize assets in this way. Sometimes man may be required simply to accept fate, to bear his cross. Every situation is distinguished by its uniqueness, and there is always only one right answer to the problem posed by the situation at hand."

that's from a BOOK i was READIng last night.

ps I might disagree with that last statement a bit, for there's certainly ambigous answers to some problems, or even just problems that can have more than one solution. Some answers might be better than other answers, though, so there could be a degree of rightness ;o

[FartinMowler]

kahljorn "These tasks, and therefore the meaning of life, differ from man to man, and from moment to moment. Thus it is impossible to define the meaning of life in a general way. Questions about the meaning of life can never be answered by sweeping statements. "Life" does not mean something vague, but something very real and concrete, just as life's tasks are also very real and conrete. They form man's destiny, which is different and unique for each individual. No man and no destiny can be compared with any other man or any other destiny. No situation repeats itself, and each situations calls for a different response. Sometimes the situation in which a man finds himself may require him to shape his own fate by action. At other times it is more advatageous for him to make use of an opportunity for contemplation and to realize assets in this way. Sometimes man may be required simply to accept fate, to bear his cross. Every situation is distinguished by its uniqueness, and there is always only one right answer to the problem posed by the situation at hand."

Yesterday I walked and thought and then it came to me that if I go back to the place that I walked before I might find what I was looking for. I went back and looked and there on the ground lay a little bird wounded. I knelt down and said to the little bird "Little bird what is the meaning of life?" and the little bird looked up at me with his little eyes and said "Don't fly into fucking windows"

[kahljorn]

I hope that's a joke mister.

[kahljorn]

how fitting that you'd be learning about courtney love with a mouth full of eggs. Now THATS a complete educational experience.

[FartinMowler]

one of these people knows the meaning of life.

[SKATERMONKEY]

So does this guy. I mean.. look at him!

[theapportioner]

As for me, I have varying ideas, but to respond to Fartin's remark as paraphrased by Seth, I am of the opinion that our subjective experience imbues a sense of value and purpose to OUR lives. OUR lives have meaning, if you will, because of our memories, our narrative stories, our histories and future aspirations, values, dreams, and goals. I don't see what more meaning you could really want.

[kahljorn]

How are memories, narrative stories, histories and future aspirations meaningful? Objectively and truthfully, they are meaningless. Telelogically they are meaningless. In what ultimate end, in what ideal of man, will you find his memories, narrative accounts and histories? Maybe you can find an ultimate end in the future, but it's not very close and you have no idea when it will come or what it will be.

the question what is the meaning of life is ambiguous. That's what sethomas was talking about when he said existence proceeds essence. Existence proceeds meaning is pretty similar. In order for anything to have meaning, existence must exist. So does that mean things are intrinisically meaningless? It's also a statement that meaning only exists subjectively. "LIFE MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS TO DIFFERENT THINGS".
the meaning of life is to live lol

[theapportioner]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

How are memories, narrative stories, histories and future aspirations meaningful? Objectively and truthfully, they are meaningless.

And how are they objective? My entire point (and yours) is that meaning is necessarily subjective, and what we do over the course of our lives creates that meaning.

That's what sethomas was talking about when he said existence proceeds essence. Existence proceeds meaning is pretty similar ... It's also a statement that meaning only exists subjectively.

Well, exactly.

[theapportioner]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

"LIFE MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS TO DIFFERENT THINGS".

The content of that meaning will differ, but I'm arguing that the structure of the meaning (histories, narrative stories, futures etc.) is basically the same for all people.

[kahljorn]

Subjective meaning doesn't really have any real meaning. it's subjective and based on the individual. sometimes it might not even be meaningful. creating meaning basically means filling things with empty meaning to make yourself feel like you mean something. Nothing means anything, stranger face.
Like I said, if meaning is subjective doesn't that mean meaning is inherently meaningless, especially insofar as ultimate ends and having a point to existence?
and what do we value, really? don't we usually value most the surreal and objective forces? don't we value ultimate ends and meaningful lives insofar as achieving that ultimate end.