Thank God this doesn't apply to the Catholic Church!

[kellychaos]

I can see where my comments became inflammatory in nature due to my generalization. I would like to amend my comments by qualifying my charges of hypocrisy to "most" and NOT, of course, "all". Though this may seem a token and pointless acquiesence to some, it is what I believe. While not necessarily in love with organized religion, I can see value and wisdom in the teachings of Christ. There are many people who try to uphold christian values and that is good. Many may see it as a bail-out to say I'm agnostic and; therefore, do not have to maintain a level of christian values and, in the attempt, a pretense of piousness. So be it. This would feel false to me and, if anything, a level of truth to others about who I am is a big priority to me.

[kellychaos]

If you want a prime example of the aforementioned, check out the obese, gap-toothed, trailer-trash woman on "Trading Spouses" that claimed to be a "christian warrior". She is diametrically opposed to anything I would think of a christian. She represents a vast demographic of middle-america that I hear and see on a daily basis ... there are millions of THEM out there. Deny it.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

i don't deny it.

I do however deny that that one person is A. A fair representation of all Christians, and B. That I am qualified to condemn her as a bad Christian.

That's not my job, my job is to be a better Christian, and to try to convince my neighbors to do the same. It's not to condemn her to hell.

[kahljorn]

"but it was in response to this "hypocricy" nonsense that gets thrown around. "

I didn't really say they were hypocrites for sinning, but sinning without true repentence. Remember, sinning without trying to change? I think I kind of consider repentence and change the same way.

"I'm not saying people shouldn't strive for it. I'm also not saying that people can be bad Christians. I am however saying that it isn't my job, nor is it yours, to pass that judgement. .... etc."

You are misunderstanding me, I'm not "Ripping" on them, just discussing their general psychology. You see, that's why I said you guys are wrong in assuming I'm a "Jilted former christian". I'm not doing this because I want to give christianity a bad name, I'm actually doing it for good reasons, and with those thoughts in mind, I'm doing it to improve the christian religion, and subsequently the world on at least some pointless level that probably won't occur...

"Saying that "most" Christians are bad Christians because they mess up sometimes is a whole other thing, and it's wrong. "

They are poor representations of christ, wouldn't you agree? Compare them on a side-by-side basis. It's like elvis impersonators, some are good, some are bad. Again, I'm not damning anyone to hell or even claiming that they will be sent to a firey death, I don't believe in that shit anyhow. What I am saying is that there's a discernable level of how good someone is, and as far as the grand scale goes they are mostly average, and in this world average generally means "ON the bad side".
I'm not saying they are all murderers and rapists, more so I'm saying they don't understand the functions of their own religion because they have never bothered to consider it. Which to me is like being a child, and it's not very adult-like. Do you think God would want you to accept his word(being spoken through a human beings mouth) without question? And not questioned in a bad way, just questioned so you can receieve the true answer from God or whatever silly shit you want to say. We all have a potential, and not living up to it is throwing away the gifts of God.
Wouldn't you say that strive for understanding is something that as any religious person you should be attempting to find out? It's like being a literary expert who never has, and never will, read a piece of literature.

"Something you are terribly unqualified to assess. Again-- how do you TRULY know that people who contradict God, or who sin and then ask for forgiveness, are doing so in an "arbitrary" fashion? Who are you, the sinner, to make that judgement?"

Personal experience? Psychological knowledge? The idea that, 95% of the time they are doing "Me" things(Which isn't bad, you need some "Me" things or you'll shit your pants and simotaneously starve/dehydrate to death) makes me think that. The other times it's ON A WHIM or LACKING JUDGEMENT OR PRINCIPLE. They treat it like another me thing, "This way I'm assuring my admintance into heaven" or some other dilusion.
What I'm suggesting isn't attempted moments of "Christ-likeness" but everyday, every hour full of it. Even if it's just attempted, because attempts(generally speaking) lead to success, and in a case like this the successes will be frequent and grand for everyone, especially "Me". What better way to live for yourself..? I consider anything else perpetuating a sinful personality. In the same respect, living like christ is a perpetuating experience.

"John 8:7? "
I haven't thrown any stones, quite the contrary, I've been saying they don't deserve bad. In that very statement. I've also mentioned on multiple occasions that I even hold myself to the statements I make, that much should be clearly relevant. This isn't personal perception that excludes me, fucko, that's why you appear a jackass to me. This is on the whole, including me and the pope and whatever other fucking martyrs want to throw their two cents in. To me, this is the most important underlying foundation.
I'm not damning anyone.

"And what has helped yu determind that a majority of Christians don't do this?"

Personal experience, personal observations. It's a very pure event, and it can't really be cluttered with personal feelings and such, which is why although alot may change and focus on the path, few seek to understand. Without understanding, the path they are walking is unknown to them, so who knows if they are heading in the right direction? Like i said, at least they try, but all the same, what does it matter?
Put it this way, kevin: If everybody was living these ideals, then idealy the world would be ideal, correct? However, clearly these ideals aren't being lived, and that's why the world is not ideal.
That is all I need to know, really, and on a whole I haven't really noticed society changing much in the past few thousand years. That's another indication, to me, that religion isn't very religious along with most other social institutions.
Let me ask you another question, why do you think most people don't try harder? We both agree that sometimes people do try, but to what extent? What is holding them back? Laziness, fear of change? Fear of themselves, fear of what others will think? Fear of being alone? List some more reasons you think people don't try hard enough, than consider that with what they are trying.
Is it things they don't fear? Things their friends won't care about? Things they can brag about? What is it, and what relation does it have to them? In that true nature, not it's outwardly nature, does it remain christ-like or even remotely selfless in some sense?

"none of them were Christ, but anyway"

I'm going to look up some historical data on, I believe, Balder for you. You see, when greece or some such place was raided they declared that statues of Balder were not to be harmed for he is the likeness of Christ and should be worshipped as such. Like I said, I'll find it.
Ezekiel ascended to heaven in a firey chariot to join God, that makes him a son of man in christ's image. Again, read ezekiel two and three. It's like enoch, how can you not consider him on the same level of jesus? From what some people believe, enoch was raised to the position just under God, the human representation of perfection: Metatron(A scribe much on the level of hermes or thoth). Anything else is church propaganda, it's like how alot of people really reveer the virgin mary and others don't really pay her much mind.
Don't take the metatron thing too seriously(it's not in the bible, but it is relevant elsewhere in certain talmudic circles), I merely mention it as an example.

"But what's your proof? My argument is that there is no bulk of good and bad Christians."

Sure. Human beings on a whole have a bulk of "Good and bad people", of course most social institutions are going to follow suit. Keep pretending the world is perfect, though.

"Both views are based off of personal experience and assumptions"

What else would it be based on, God-like clairvoyance? What the hell else could anything anybody is saying be based upon. That point is clearly moot.

"But the parable is appropriate because it also highlights the absurdity in looking at a wealthy person today and saying that they are by default going to hell. "

The other verse i read said, "A wealthy person entering heaven is about as likely as a camel passing through the eye of a needle". Sure, it happens, like I said: When it involves people, there's always anomalies. You should really adopt some of the last two things I'm saying as some kind of permanant reality, I think it would be helpful for you.

"After all, if you were really smart and did really well in life and made lots of money, it's all because of God, isn't it?"

How many people become rich in an honest fashion without hurting alot of people? How many people continue to do dishonest things in order to stay rich? How many people are so rich that they could help ALOT of people without it barely even scratching them that don't, or do for some kind of publicity or tax cut? I'm sure some people do, but I'm sure there's some that don't, too.
The bible pretty much calls money the base of all corruption for humanity, so you know. I could prolly find that verse if you want, too.

"It's because if society accepts it, then you create a culture of sin, one that becomes pervasive throughout everything"

That's very true and I accept that, I didn't say they would goto hell for it I just said it's probably wrong of them to do. Do you think living in fear is an excuse you could use with God? Consider it like that, when they go before god and say, "Well, I was going to donate money to charity but i wanted to buy a TV?" God will go, "Okay, that's fine come on up to heaven where we bought you twenty big screen televisions so you can be in a room with walls made of televisions! But no couch, you impetious humans are not allowed to sit(true story, humans actually AREN'T allowed to sit in heaven :O )"

In the end, the world is still a horrible place that hasn't changed much over the last 7,000 years or so of recorded history. There's still massive wars and corruption at every turn. Oppression still reigns supreme. If religion as a cultural device was there to develop culture, than it has failed horribly. This of course isn't without exception, but overall as far as the grand eye can see, since the christian religion has come into power the world has not become a better place.
As such, religion has failed to attain it's purpose, and the human beings engulfed by it have remained the same.

"i don't see you as being very different from the hypocrites you're ranting on about"

Hypocricy doesn't really bother me very much, honestly. But, point away at my hypocricy. I suppose you're discoursing on how I'm "Judging"? I'm judging no one, just putting together the pieces that are already apparant just by looking outside or reading the news.

Remember, you should try to be christ-like every day and every second. That's the path to God.

[kahljorn]

"That's not my job, my job is to be a better Christian, and to try to convince my neighbors to do the same. It's not to condemn her to hell."

No, but it's God's job, and without recogizing why God would damn someone to hell you can't really help them, can you? I hope you're caught up. Ignorance won't help anyone.

[kahljorn]

It wasn't balder, balder's one of odin's bitches. His connection to Jesus is rather interesting. He had 12 disciples, and one of them was a betrayer. Betrayal resulted in joy vanishing from the earth, and so odinic followers would try to ressurect balder. There's more, but who cares.
It was serapis, my mistake. The person who declared this was emperor Hadrian in ad 134 while traveling to egypt. There's alot of information on that, but it's pointless to mention, really. Suffice it to say the "Sun God" exists in more than one religion.

[kahljorn]

Here's something I was looking for earlier I managed to find:

Written by st. augistine:
"Adam sleeps that eve may be formed: Christ dies, that the church may be formed. While Adam sleeps, Eve is formed from his side. When Christ is dead, his side is smitten with a spear, that there flow forth sacraments to form the church. Adam himself was the figure of Him that was to come."

I feel that supports some of what I was saying. Consider it before you post negative responses about not understanding, but I feel you should be fully capable.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

I didn't really say they were hypocrites for sinning, but sinning without true repentence. Remember, sinning without trying to change?

here we go again-- How do we know they don't truly repent? How do YOU know this????

I'm not damning anyone to hell or even claiming that they will be sent to a firey death, I don't believe in that shit anyhow. What I am saying is that there's a discernable level of how good someone is, and as far as the grand scale goes they are mostly average, and in this world average generally means "ON the bad side".

John 8:7? As far as i can discern, you're a condescending and moronic prick, but is that a fair assumption to make simply by encountering you on this message board and talking about Christ?

Do you think God would want you to accept his word(being spoken through a human beings mouth) without question? And not questioned in a bad way, just questioned so you can receieve the true answer from God or whatever silly shit you want to say. We all have a potential, and not living up to it is throwing away the gifts of God.

I don't disagree.

How do YOU have the right to measure and judge that potential??? The teachings in the Bible, particularly the teachings of Christ, tell you how to be a good Christian, and essentially how the whole deal works. It isn't a manual on how to condemn your fellow man. Once again, that is NOT your responsibility on this planet.

You can say you aren't doing that and that you don't believe in hell, but by saying most Christians aren't good Christians, then yes, you are in fact judging and condemning them.

Personal experience? Psychological knowledge? The idea that, 95% of the time they are doing "Me" things(Which isn't bad, you need some "Me" things or you'll shit your pants and simotaneously starve/dehydrate to death) makes me think that. The other times it's ON A WHIM or LACKING JUDGEMENT OR PRINCIPLE. They treat it like another me thing, "This way I'm assuring my admintance into heaven" or some other dilusion.
What I'm suggesting isn't attempted moments of "Christ-likeness" but everyday, every hour full of it. Even if it's just attempted, because attempts(generally speaking) lead to success, and in a case like this the successes will be frequent and grand for everyone, especially "Me". What better way to live for yourself..? I consider anything else perpetuating a sinful personality. In the same respect, living like christ is a perpetuating experience.

Look at the world's population. Then look at the % that considers itself to be Christian of some sort. Then look atthe overall total in America. Then look at the overall total in your state. Then look at the overall total that you actually know.

Would you say that this is a terribly fair sample for you to judge how good or bad most Christians are? Again, do you think it is your role as a "Christian" to decide that?

"John 8:7? "
I haven't thrown any stones, quite the contrary, I've been saying they don't deserve bad.

Huh? You have said that most Christians are bad Christians. You don't need to assault or accostthem to violate what Christ was teaching here.

God knows the worth of a human being. A person that you look at and may think is a great, shining example of a Christian might go home at night and get off to kiddie porn. Neither of us is in the position to make that judgement.

Put it this way, kevin: If everybody was living these ideals, then idealy the world would be ideal, correct? However, clearly these ideals aren't being lived, and that's why the world is not ideal.
That is all I need to know, really, and on a whole I haven't really noticed society changing much in the past few thousand years. That's another indication, to me, that religion isn't very religious along with most other social institutions.

This isn't what's taught in the Bible. The "church" structure is a device of people, sinners. God didn't invent religion, he merely left us the free well to follow him as we please, as long as we play by the rules.

The world will never be without sin, and Christians will never stop sinning. i think you're into the wrong religion.

How many people are so rich that they could help ALOT of people without it barely even scratching them that don't, or do for some kind of publicity or tax cut? I'm sure some people do, but I'm sure there's some that don't, too.
The bible pretty much calls money the base of all corruption for humanity, so you know. I could prolly find that verse if you want, too.

Money isn't always the bad guy in the Bible. What can make it bad is that the pursuit of it could replace God as your idol (and with it goes all that you said, how many were stepped on, harmed, etc.).

Many wealthy Christians do give until it hurts. You live in a country with the most charitable Christians on the planet. is their a quota mentioned somewhere in the Bible? Does God always side with labor and the poor in the Bible?

Many Christians don't give enough, and don't do enough. They certainly aren't a small number, but they can't be called the norm either.

In the end, the world is still a horrible place that hasn't changed much over the last 7,000 years or so of recorded history. There's still massive wars and corruption at every turn. Oppression still reigns supreme. If religion as a cultural device was there to develop culture, than it has failed horribly. This of course isn't without exception, but overall as far as the grand eye can see, since the christian religion has come into power the world has not become a better place.
As such, religion has failed to attain it's purpose, and the human beings engulfed by it have remained the same.

Find me the word religion in the Bible. How often does Christ use it? Is the Church supposed to be the UN? Christians do countless works around the globe, and spend millions and millions of dollars fighting disease, poverty, famine, and even war. You're saying that most Christians suck because we still have these things? That's ridiculous.

In Revelation, does God say "ok guys, once you're all perfect and the world is awesome I'm going to come down"?

The world will never be without sin. Everyone sins. You can say that people should try to sin less, and you'd be right, but you'd also be a terribly obvious jackass. If every person who called themselves Christian tried their best, there'd still be war, and famine, and poverty, and misery.

No, but it's God's job, and without recogizing why God would damn someone to hell you can't really help them, can you? I hope you're caught up. Ignorance won't help anyone.

You're a scumbag, I hope you know that. I'm certain you do.

You can tell them the Word, you can point them in the right direction, but you will never truly be able to know what's in their heart. you will also never truly be able to know their own fate comapred to yours.

Granted, you know some Christians in the small part of California you live in. That powerful factoid aside, you still can't make that judgement based off of mere perception. Nor is it your responsibility to do so.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

Written by st. augistine:
"Adam sleeps that eve may be formed: Christ dies, that the church may be formed. While Adam sleeps, Eve is formed from his side. When Christ is dead, his side is smitten with a spear, that there flow forth sacraments to form the church. Adam himself was the figure of Him that was to come."

I feel that supports some of what I was saying. Consider it before you post negative responses about not understanding, but I feel you should be fully capable.

Very pretty, but how does this prove that most Christians are bad Christians? Hmm??

And do you think that even St. Augustine should speak for every Christian on Earth?

[kahljorn]

"here we go again-- How do we know they don't truly repent? How do YOU know this????"

If they did repent they would change, right? If they changed the world would change, if the world changed we would notice. Same argument for every religion. Thanks.

"As far as i can discern, you're a condescending and moronic prick, but is that a fair assumption to make simply by encountering you on this message board and talking about Christ? "

I hope so since, clearly, that is the type of personality I try to portray here constantly.

"How do YOU have the right to measure and judge that potential???"

Magic markers.

"The teachings in the Bible, particularly the teachings of Christ, tell you how to be a good Christian, and essentially how the whole deal works. It isn't a manual on how to condemn your fellow man. Once again, that is NOT your responsibility on this planet."

How do you know what my responsibility on this planet is?
I'm not condemning fellow man, I'm saying they are condemning themselves. Clearly, look around. There's plenty of poor, suffering people. Jesus fucking christ, I admit the weak, horrible parts of my race and of MYSELF. Foremost, I admit and suffer through MY fucking falling points, how could I not? Everything else is outside of me, but by knowing myself well enough I can discern them well enough. You don't even try that, along with the majority of people in this world.
Aren't you a human being?
Quit acting like I'm not throwing my ego into this. I've expressed this multiple times by saying I TRY TO FOLLOW THAT PATH TOO. You're acting like none of this involves me which I find personally heinous of you because you try to hide from conversations like this(so do most christians, mostly because you're afriad, partly because you don't know). I don't give a fuck if you think what I say is wrong, it's the damned truth and you know it.
Even if I was measuring and judging, do you see me handing out punishments? All I'm presenting is the truth that is plain to see, human nature dictates that you hide that side of ourselves. I consider that evil and sinful, and am instead choosing to magnify the evil points so people can notice them. Primarily myself. This is not such a bad thing, and if you care to call it a bad thing that's find. Let's move on, I'm a bad bad man.

"but by saying most Christians aren't good Christians, then yes, you are in fact judging and condemning them. "

Yea, to what hell am I condemning them? As far as I know I don't even have the power to do that(you're the one who keeps saying that God does it), which is exactly why it's safe for me to do it. And even if I did have the power to condemn them, I wouldn't. But the church does. That's pretty unreligious of religion, isn't it?
Hell, you're saying I'm judging people which is in fact a judgement on your part, and you are in fact condemning me. What the fuck? Knock it off with this boring line of thought, kevin. You certainly have highpoints, but that's not one of them.

"Would you say that this is a terribly fair sample for you to judge how good or bad most Christians are?"

Generally when, even political, polls are done it's not every single black male in america, or even every single black male in dc, is it?

"Again, do you think it is your role as a "Christian" to decide that? "

Yes. It's plainly obvious that the world could improve alot.

"You don't need to assault or accostthem to violate what Christ was teaching here. "

So, jesus called the clergy bad on multiple occasions. And he wouldn't have been there to help people in the first place if there wasn't some kind of problem. What logic that is, huh? People wouldn't need religion or to latch onto jesus unless there was some kind of problem. But again, thanks for trying to hide problems, the world is perfect. Hold on while I eat a pez that supplies a full days worth of nutrients without the negative effects of a multi-vitamin. Cheapass.
You and italian stereotype are pretty much my prime examples of Bad christians because you refuse to admit that there's problems with the world, with yourself and with other people, and if you did admit all of that we wouldn't be having this conversation. The only reason you refuse to admit it is because it's insulting to your religion, and it's only really insulting to your religion because it's insulting to you. You're afraid to admit your own problems and downfalls. Fuck off with your ego.

"God knows the worth of a human being. A person that you look at and may think is a great, shining example of a Christian might go home at night and get off to kiddie porn."

Well, uh, thanks. That's sort of part of what I've been saying.

"Neither of us is in the position to make that judgement. "

I'm not making a direct judgement on people, but rather on the state of society, culture and of the world. Since society is essentially everyone on earth put together, it's a rather good example as to how the whole of humanity is doing. It's sort of like realizing that if the car doesn't start, there's probably something wrong with it.

"The world will never be without sin, and Christians will never stop sinning. i think you're into the wrong religion. "

Thanks for the breakthrough. I'm sure the world could improve quite a bit though, right? If not, then why jesus' sacrafice? why the bible at all?

"Money isn't always the bad guy in the Bible. What can make it bad is that the pursuit of it could replace God as your idol"

Yea. That's basically what the bible says about it, it's the base of corruption for humanity. The base, foundation.

"is their a quota mentioned somewhere in the Bible?"

Yep. Where it says that the "Poor shall not give less" it also says the "Rich shall not give more". That's mostly dealing with contributions to the church, though.(doesn't modern catholic church demand a percentage? I just thought of that afterwards. I think the amount the bible said was half a Shikra or something like that, I'm not sure of that amount but i could look it up. Maybe a shikra is the percentage they use? I don't know.)

"Does God always side with labor and the poor in the Bible? "

Look it up, God says there's nothing more fulfilling than laboring under the sun.

"In Revelation, does God say "ok guys, once you're all perfect and the world is awesome I'm going to come down"?:

Actually, I think he says something that could be interpreted that way(and probably has been). That might not have been revelations, though.

"If every person who called themselves Christian tried their best, there'd still be war, and famine, and poverty, and misery. "

Maybe, but there could also potentially be alot less. And as far as famine and poverty: that's not necessarily true. It could potentially be possible for something like that to occur.

"That powerful factoid aside, you still can't make that judgement based off of mere perception."

I did, and you've been mentioning that I did it for the last 20 minutes. Isn't telling me what I can and can't do a judgement?

"you will also never truly be able to know their own fate comapred to yours. "

I will never truly care. I don't care about things like that.


Let's end this conversation though, Kevin. You've already admitted that some christians are bad. Even if it's not all, it's enough for me. You've admitted they will never be christ(although you are the one deifying him here, he was supposed to be a human, that was his importance as God's human son, there's some instances in the bible where he sinned so you were really kind of showing off your own knowledge of the bible) and all you're really doing in this argument is resorting to saying I'm discriminating and judging which is wrong according to the bible. Who cares? All christians judge. Weeeeeeee. Who cares if it's, "Not my job" obviously it's not, that's why I feel confident in doing it because what i say will have no effect on them or their lives. That isn't judgement, that's just opinion. You need to learn to discern the two.
I don't know why you feel the need to pretend like this stuff doesn't happen, i think it's you desperately trying to make a point. Does you saying there's problems within our government come as a sin? Huh? No. You say that shit all the time, I've never called you a sinner. I think it's a good thing that you at least look at things rather than just believing whatever you hear. Why is it different with your faith? Too personal? Don't feel up to the task? Granting the last two options, you shouldn't even be involved in a debate about it. You clearly have no knowledge on the topic.
I'm sure somewhere in the bible it says that the human race as a whole is partly evil. I'm sure Jesus himself said that the CLERGY was corrupt, I'm sure that the people Jesus was trying to save were partly responsible for his death. I'm sure that shitty christians who refuse to accept that there are bad things are a poor reflection of jesus christ, and i have judged you to be a poor reflection. Now I will piss in the water your figure shines so glummly in and drink moonshine in hell.
This shit isn't to be believed unerringly, you are pathetic and small for thinking so just because they have threatened you with damnation. You seem to believe God enjoys ignorance(and he might if we all ignored eachother's downfalls enough to not make us act horrible towards eachother) I think God would have us live to our full potential and know the truth of things by actually finding him and knowing him. I find you pathetic in that regard, but still respect you the same as I did before this discussion, you are really only belittling yourself. I have no actual negative feelings for you, just conceptual models and notions built up around you.
That's all, Good evening.

[kahljorn]

"Very pretty, but how does this prove that most Christians are bad Christians? Hmm??"

Very simply and lucidly, that our goal is to become christ?
If Adam is the principal human, and he was to become jesus christ, than that should be our goal. That jesus was a man who attained Christhood through effort and not bullshit, and still suffered through sin(he sort of suffered through the ultimate form of Sin, in effect he is the most sinful man man has ever known)? That using that as an example, we should be sacraficing ourselves for fellow man? How many do that? I instantly have respect for anyone who does that, even if in an arbitrary respect, even if what they did was incredibly stupid. I love that human beings are capable of that, but loathe that they instead choose to find scape goats like you have been doing. You use jesus christ as your scape-goat, throwing all your sin onto his back. You killed jesus, you fucking animal. I hate you.
That really wasn't the point I was trying to make, though, not everything is about that kevin. I don't even care about Christians being bad, I care about christians being better, along with everyone else. I was just connecting Dots.

"And do you think that even St. Augustine should speak for every Christian on Earth?"

I quote the bible and it's not enough. I quote St augestine and it's not enough. I quote jesus, God and whoever else. Clearly, no amount of people who were influential to your religion will convince you of anything. For all you know I've been copy pasting the convinctions of Christ and God(which is practically what I've been doing, seriously. All those versus and shit, remember?) and you have been calling him judgemental and a scumbag. Good job you blasphemer.

I really don't want to have this conversation anymore. After this I'm going to probably not respond. But who knows, I sure get emotionally involved in things, and I love momentum.

[kahljorn]

Ah, interesting:
For the part above where i mentioned the catholic church takes more than it's supposed to:
It's a SHEKEL, not a shirka or whatever, I'm pretty stupid.

shek·el Audio pronunciation of "shekel" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (shkl)
n.

1.
1. Any of several ancient units of weight, especially a Hebrew unit equal to about a half ounce.
2. A gold or silver coin equal in weight to one of these units, especially the chief silver coin of the ancient Hebrews.

Exodus 30:15
The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

That's hilarious to me. More unreligious religion(even though it's not really relevant unless you're being really dogmatic and literal; but that's what catholicism is known for).

[Sethomas]

Catholics are allowed to believe in the big bang and evolution. And we're too... literal? And posting the Old Testament is a moot point. Ten Commandments- grand. But selling your daughter into slavery and detaining women while in menstruation? What exactly do you want us to accept as literal and what not?

[kahljorn]

Anything in the bible that's taken literally I would consider literal. I was hoping your post would be more better I have absolutely no suggestions for you, though. I just found it funny that the bible says how much money should be given. I'm sure it doesn't really go against it, though, because through some matter of literacy they could claim it's only when you're seeking atonement for your soul.
The catholic church is horribly literal on alot of things in the bible: so are christians. In this instance, catholics demand a certain amount, and christians don't so they won an appearance in my post.
I find that Catholics being allowed to believe in the big bang to be quite literal, since no where in the bible does it say you can't believe in them.

I thought up something funny guys while i was doing the dishes check this out it's so cool your eyes will fall out of your head;

so like, okay, if people continue through their lives sinning the earth becomes like hell and like when we um stop being like so evil we become good and the earth becomes a better place and it becomes like heaven wow that's kinda crazy they say God is where heaven is that's cool.

[Sethomas]

I actually believed that when I was 11.

In the Old Testament, you have Ten Commandments and several hundred laws, mostly in the Book of Leviticus. Christ said, Honor the Commandments, but add to them "love your neighbor as yourself". The laws? They're for Hobbesian proto-society, so screw them. I find that to be a very consistent, cogent outlook. And that's what the Catholic Church has been teaching since St Peter.

[kahljorn]

at the begining of this argument i suggested something along those lines. I must have the wrong idea of catholicism from someone else, or maybe I was just flat mistaken about them being "literal" and "Dogmatic". All i know is i have relatives who don't eat meat on fridays and all kinds of other weird stuff(My girlfriends mom was barely able to even become a member of the catholic church for some reason or another), I realize that's more choice than anything but still.
My family is funny in that sense that, some of them are protestant and some of them are catholic. They often have interesting conversations, and for the most part I've actually found those who are catholic to be more well-read in biblical terms than christians.
So don't take what I said personally or anything. I was merely commenting that, for the most part, Catholics seem to be more literal and ritualistic than protestants, especially when you consider the rockn'roll music they play for worshipping. Do they ask for money when you make a confession(I'm guessing that would be considered atonement for your soul, but I'm not sure)?

P.S. I don't think anyone should have to pay money for atonement, but I suppose it's a good method for repentance.

[Immortal Goat]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

How do YOU have the right to measure and judge that potential??? The teachings in the Bible, particularly the teachings of Christ, tell you how to be a good Christian, and essentially how the whole deal works. It isn't a manual on how to condemn your fellow man. Once again, that is NOT your responsibility on this planet.

You can say you aren't doing that and that you don't believe in hell, but by saying most Christians aren't good Christians, then yes, you are in fact judging and condemning them.

I think the whole point of his argument is that it ISN'T a manual on how to condemn your fellow man, but the most vocal of Christians out there (note how I said the most vocal, not the majority) believe that they DO have the responsibility to condemn the rest of us to a firey pit of despair for all eternity. Of course, I could be wrong about this, but there's my two cents.

[Sethomas]

Paying for atonement is a type of indulgence that prevailed in the Middle Ages. Indulgences still exist, but the Council of Trent forbids selling them. That was in the 1540s. There were several bad priests back then who demanded a fee for their magic, id est reconciliation and transubstantiation. There you go, if you want an argument for literalism, go for "this is my blood". I buy it.

The Friday fast and abstinance (from meat, you perv) was restricted per necesitas to Lent by Vatican II. So, I ate lamb for lunch today.

There are few things more dangerous to Catholicism than an ill-informed Catholic.

The thing about the Bible is that it's recited systematically at mass, that is, all parishes worldwide are supposed to go in the same cycle. What I hear in English, Spanish, or Latin on Sunday, other people hear in French or German or Zulu that very day. So, scripture is considered a priori. Therefore, a good Catholic spends her time reading the Catechism, which digests meaning from Scripture into morality, theology, and life. That's the ground for why Protestants accuse Catholics of not being bible-thumpers, even though we have to hear the fire and brimestone shit once every two and a half years while they just recite the happy stuff every sunday.

[kahljorn]

Yea, i know what lent is, my grandma usually ate fish. Which was nice because we'd goto long john silvers or something lame like that.
I remember Indulgences as well, just wasn't sure if they were the same thing as atonement.

"which digests meaning from Scripture into morality, theology, and life."

That's how I feel it should be, but it generally doesn't absolve that way. Morality(which kind of goes hand in hand with life), in my opinion, should be the greatest lesson learned from religion, really. Regardless of if theological lessons are learned, morality is more real and active than anything else you can gain through the bible.
Generally when you gain some kind of theological knowledge you gain some kind of moral lesson as well, though.

"I think the whole point of his argument is that it ISN'T a manual on how to condemn your fellow man"

Yea, that was part of it i guess. I did point out the irony on second cor. being about judging while I was judging. I can't remember if this was before the tirade about judging people or not, but either way I found it hilarious.
I was also trying to express that I *do* feel a lot of responsibility for what other people do, as I feel we all should. Not in a condemning way, but in a loving way. When you feel responsible because your child spilled punch on someone's sofa, you're not condemning them. When you say they are clumsy, you aren't saying they are worthless bastards who are going to hell to live in pain and you hope they do because they deserve it. The only thing being responsible for your child can do is to show you to be more careful about them, to take better care of them and teach them how to be more careful about things. In the same respect I feel that responsibility towards the afairs of humanity, whether christian, american or satanic. I feel that it helps me be both a better person, and to treat people more fairly than they often deserve.
I don't consider that a bad thing, do you? Think of the implications, for now we vote assholes like bush into office who start wars(crappy example, sort of). How many people do you think feel responsible for that? I do, personally. I feel responsible for crazy people, and sometimes serial killers because they are often a result of outside influences(outside influences that may be me, or could at least be a result of something i or someone i know did) and society(which is a result of all of us). Which serial killer was it that thought he was a vampire, and when he was found covered in cows blood saying his blood was drying up and the only way to moisturize it was to get new blood? After that, they released him from the institution with barely a slap on the wrist, and he went out and killed a bunch of people. I feel responsible for that, and feel the doctors should as well. There's tons of examples like that, and I'm sure you can think up your own.

I guess I was trying to express that we should feel responsible for what other people do without condemning them? I was merely quoting what was considered condemnable in the bible since he was asking for scriptural references, and I found that some of the scriptural references sort of complimented the idea I was getting across. The others I threw in because they made people look already condemned which i found kind of hilarious in a juvenile way.

I'm actually a horribly peaceful person in real life, even if i do like to talk shit for entertainment purposes. I'll probably be gone for the rest of the night, and possibly for the weekend. I have to do assessment testing for a community college tomorrow. I'm moving up in the world So, sorry if i don't respond to you guys before then.
Any classes at a community college you would reccomend, seth?

[Sethomas]

Pre-Calculus. :rimshot

[kahljorn]

I took that in a past life, in fact invented it, bitch.

[sadie]

thank god this doesn't apply!

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by KevinTheOmnivore

God knows the worth of a human being. A person that you look at and may think is a great, shining example of a Christian might go home at night and get off to kiddie porn. Neither of us is in the position to make that judgement.

I find both truth and sadness in this remark.

And Kahl,

Strive for the succinct.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Kahl likes to use emoticons.

And Kahl, have no fears. I think just as little of you, and we should end this conversation (which I think I said a long time ago, before your numerous, rambling polemics).

[kellychaos]

Good day, Kevin!