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Chojin Chojin is offline
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Old May 5th, 2010, 10:16 AM       
I didn't even get a 'thank you' from him.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 10:23 AM       
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I didn't even get a 'thank you' from him.
I'm sorry,

Thanks buddy. I've never been let back in once I've been banned. I appreciate it. And I appreciate the general debate as well.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 10:39 AM       
What fucking death panels are you talking about? I admit I haven't followed US politics, but I'm having hard time believing that a panel would be administrated to decide who deserves to live and who must die.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 12:10 PM       
Webster Tarpley on the "oligarchy". Ok. First five minutes is nothing, so thanks for that I'm on a slow internet at the moment; just warming up the audience by saying meaningless buzz words and phrases like "fascistoid militias" and "international depression breakdown crisis perspective" (I kid you not).

His 'resounding theme' for the year is "the crisis of the Anglo-American ruling class". In the US, and around the world. He includes Burma, Pakistan and others. Now, what is this crisis? Is it the crisis of there simply being a ruling class? That isn't a crisis in itself, otherwise we might as well consider almost the entirety of recorded history to be one long crisis, in which case it ceases to be a crisis and becomes the norm.

Ok, so now I'm told that the crisis is that they "make the wrong decisions for the economy". Implying that if they made the right decisions (who knows what they are) then everything would be ok and the oligarchy would be hunky dory. The "wrong decisions" include betting the farm on 1.6 quadrillion in derivatives. The Burmese oligarchs are part of this, btw. They are relying on green energy like windmills and solar cells to get them out of the worst world economic depression that we have ever seen. The reason behind relying on green energy is because they are too decadent and degenerate to think otherwise. Right.

++++DELETED A THOUSAND WORDS ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE HOAX++++

This guy displays very Coolinator ideas on information, and he goes of on a tangent about how old windmills and solar cells are.

Now we find out what his "Oligarchy" are, they are the ruling class ("sounds Marxist? Well guess again!") yes, you heard it right, the oligarchs are the ruling elite. You could never have guessed this. He bases his views on Plato's comment that the rich ruling the poor, which I need not explain is as simplistic as it sounds. Rich rule poor. No question on how they become rich, through, say, their class standing and economic opportunities of said class standing, which might be more relevant to whether they are in power, since several different... ugh, never mind. Rich rule poor. So, the ruling class are "oligarchs", which is technically correct if we take Plato's starting point, but far too simplistic to actually mean anything; it's just a word used to conjure up fear or interest. The sort of buzz word that Coolinator supposedly hates. YOU SHEEP.

How else do we know that the world is ruled by an oligarchy? Well, Plato states that an oligarchy is filled with evils, and guess what? SO IS THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION. Wa bam!

Next. The world is, by definition (???), overpopulated. The definition of the world.... means that it is overpopulated. I'll just move on. The oligarchs only care about themselves, so they want to what sounds like 'cull' the poor population with wars, Death Panels, insurance companies, fluoride, genocide, and chemicals in foods. The Trojan war was based around the fact that the world was overpopulated, and the oligarchs wanted to keep the poor under control. As an ex ancient history student and enthusiast, this idea makes me cry. Hell, the idea that any wars are simply designed to cull your own population is a bit rich.

He mentions the Spartan Oligarchs, during what I am guessing is the Peloponnesian wars, lamenting the fact that Athens had a powerful navy with which to harm their rights (Athens being non-oligarchical, apparently... uh, despite us being told that the oligarchs are in power all over the world and have been for ever...). Thucydides prefers to think that it was mainly to do with trade issues and shit, but whatever. Why is he delving into ancient history like a ham fisted barbarian burning down the Acropolis? Well, it's not important, but it sounds quite technical, and if we talk about the past it sort of gives weight to the idea that the "oligarchy" has been around throughout history, rather than just being a buzz word.

Now, there was an idea growing in the 19th century that the world could support a certain amount of people comfortably. Darwin is mentioned as being on board with this. Rather than logically seeing this from an environmental and social perspective on how humanity can live safely, healthily and happily on a world with limited resources, it's OBVIOUS that this is just another example of the "oligarchs" wanting to cull the population, or keep the population low through god knows what methods. This, we are told, is fascism. "Hitler and so forth are based, to a significant degree, on the reading of Darwin by Nietzsche". Not social Darwinism, or something relevant to fascism, but the fact that Darwin believed that the world could support 3 billion people. People know that Nietzsche is related to nazis, right? It's like saying that Darwin had a beard, and Nietzsche noticed this, so Hitler had a moustache and this is why they are all oligarchs. Fascist oligarchs.

So then the derivativeness come up, and the failures of the governments of the USA and UK over a thirty year period, and this is the stuff that people cling to. If you can say that the economy of the world is failing, which I myself believe it is, then you link that in to the idea of "oligarchs" simply by association. They must be international fascist oligarchs because the economy is failing, duh! And the economy is failing BECAUSE they are international fascist oligarchs.

I'm not going to expect too much from it, but you did say it explains things. It does not. The idea that there has been some sort of unbroken line of rich people in power internationally since 350BC (or before) is ridiculous. The idea thrown in, almost hesitantly in what seems to be embarrassment, that the "oligarchs" want to keep the population low, is ridiculous, and in that video certainly not backed up. Why would they want the population low? Why would they want a smaller market to peddle their wares? Why would they want a smaller size workforce that inevitably would mean less competition for jobs and higher wages? Why would they want less people in impoverished nations to manufacture their goods? "So that the oligarchs can live comfortably" does not cut it.

This guy does not cut it. The economic horrors could be true or false for all I care, and I don't care to look up the figures, but thinking that mere association with these said horrors makes the idea of "evil" population controlling oligarchs any more authentic is absurd. The final nail in the coffin is that there is no solution offered; it's just whinging about "bad decisions".

You know Coolinator, I honestly think you could learn a lot from reading over a marxist view of the world. Not being snide here (just here though), but if you actually want to have explanations for these things that obviously affect (not effect) you, then maybe try reading up on something which can explain the process of history quite well. The idea of dialectical materialism, class struggles and conflicting class welfare is much more extensive and informative about where society has come and where it is going than Griffin Tarpley is.

If sane people are wondering why I care so much to type so much, well, it's a mixture of reasons. Some enjoyment, a lack of anything better to do, and a genuine feeling that there is possibility to inform.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 10:58 AM       
Just go back a few pages where I linked to the wallstreet journal article. Not only will we have private rationing boards which will lead to needless deaths but now we will have government rationing boards which will mandate which treatment you can and can't have. If you want I can PM you the article.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 12:17 PM       
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The Youtube video I posted really details the ideology of the ruling class and how we...the people...are seen as an inferior species that in their minds must be culled (Death Panels / Rationing Panels).
Dude, you miss the point. Zhukov asked a question. Without posting a link to a blog, quoting a blog, or insulting his intellect or his viewpoint, ANSWER HIM!

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I'm sorry,

Thanks buddy. I've never been let back in once I've been banned. I appreciate it. And I appreciate the general debate as well.
So this isn't the first time. Why am I not surprised.

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Just go back a few pages where I linked to the wallstreet journal article. Not only will we have private rationing boards which will lead to needless deaths but now we will have government rationing boards which will mandate which treatment you can and can't have. If you want I can PM you the article.
Again with the articles. You still don't understand that we want to discuss the issue, and not being bludgeoned over the head with someone else's (biased) opinion. There are two sides to every story - that's part of the reason I like factcheck.org - at least they make an effort to look at misleading information from both sides of every issue. Check it out - I found every time there is a point "for" the healthcare bill, there is another point "against" the healthcare bill.

The bottom line is that it's not as good as its supporters say it is, and it's not the "evil death panel" that the detractors contend.

Personally I'd like to see some substantive discussion on how it's likely to affect each of you, including you, Mr. Coolinator. After all, you work, and therefore you have some kind of health care coverage.

No blogs allowed.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 11:20 AM       
If you don't mind, then please do
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Old May 5th, 2010, 01:47 PM       
I'm confused as hell about this topic, so to avoid dwelling deeper into this whole mess that american healthcare seems to be, I'll stay in the death panel discussion.

What I understood, rationing panels will decide how money will be spend. That is, they will "rank" the patients according to their needs, those in greatest need being first in line. Not getting your inquinal hernia operated might be annoying, but it sure won't be lethal.

I can't say how biased/exaggerated (apparently quite exaggerated) the article was.

I couldn't find proof of arthroscopy etc. being banned in washington, but if true, isn't this retarded? Wouldn't this lead into increase in disability pensions and therefore costs? Not to mention increased costs due to escalations of symptoms?


And once again to make it clear, my grasp of politics etc. is very loose and I'm a retard.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:14 PM       
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Wouldn't this lead into increase in disability pensions and therefore costs? Not to mention increased costs due to escalations of symptoms?


And once again to make it clear, my grasp of politics etc. is very loose and I'm a retard.
The Death / rationing panel is meant to reduce the cost to the private-for profit insurance companies. This will allow them a federal mandate to deny care thus saving them money. We have to remember that this is an insurance bailout in the disguise as a healthcare bill for the people. It's not meant to reduce the cost of beneficial programs like disability pensions.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 02:52 AM       
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I'm confused as hell about this topic, so to avoid dwelling deeper into this whole mess that american healthcare seems to be, I'll stay in the death panel discussion.

What I understood, rationing panels will decide how money will be spend. That is, they will "rank" the patients according to their needs, those in greatest need being first in line. Not getting your inquinal hernia operated might be annoying, but it sure won't be lethal.

I can't say how biased/exaggerated (apparently quite exaggerated) the article was.

I couldn't find proof of arthroscopy etc. being banned in washington, but if true, isn't this retarded? Wouldn't this lead into increase in disability pensions and therefore costs? Not to mention increased costs due to escalations of symptoms?


And once again to make it clear, my grasp of politics etc. is very loose and I'm a retard.
One could argue that the private sector has no interest about disability pensions, which is true, but the answer to why they are rationing care is because it's "genocide", an attempt to systematically eliminate the entirety of the American populace, because the "oligarchs" want to cull the poor people.

In reality the answer to why they are rationing health care is probably because the public side of things isn't going to be as well funded, and therefore not have enough "health care" to go around. You know, how health care is in every other country.



On one hand this guy Tarpley tells us that it's Rich ruling poor, and it has been for ever, but he also tells us that the "oligarchs" always try to kill off the poor population. Which is absurd since it's the working class that does, well, the work, and the ruling oligarchs would have no workforce.

Another thing; if the "oligarchs" wanted to cull the population, why would they go through such inefficient means such as rationing health care, rather than, say, a chemical bomb of some sort?


Answer me please Coolie, I watched your stupid video.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:23 PM       
So if it is meant as a ruse to allow insurance companies to deny claims then wouldnt the public become even more distrustful of insurance companies? Wont they then turn to the government option for its cheaper coverage even if they do deny as many claims as the insurance companies? You might as well pay less for the same shitty coverage right? All of this masterminded by the insurance companies to bring down those smug insurance companies... ?
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Old May 5th, 2010, 03:01 PM       
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So if it is meant as a ruse to allow insurance companies to deny claims then wouldnt the public become even more distrustful of insurance companies?
I don't know how much more distrustful people can get of insurance companies. Not much I believe.


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Wont they then turn to the government option for its cheaper coverage even if they do deny as many claims as the insurance companies? You might as well pay less for the same shitty coverage right?
In the bill it says that you will be forced to purchase products of private insurance companies. I'm sure the option for medicare and medicaid are still there but if you do not qualify for this you will have to buy private insurance.



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All of this masterminded by the insurance companies to bring down those smug insurance companies... ?
This is a bailout for insurance companies. Forcing people to pay into private insurance company plans is not bring them down. It's actually proping them up. With the assistance of the death / rationing panels they will be able to maximize the number of "customers" while being able to deny even more care than before.

Win / win situation for them.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 07:49 PM       
An Oligarchy is just the negative form of an aristocracy, like tyranny is the negative form of monarchy -- according to Plato. Interestingly he considered Democracy to be the negative form of Polity.

how can there even be a world wide oligarchy? The world isn't a state, or maybe it is to Coolinator he's all into that ONE GUBERMENT TAKe ovER ILLUMINATI SHIT prolly.

Also I'm pretty sure Plato considered Sparta a Polity/Democracy, but maybe it was an oligarchy at one point in history.

Plato on OLIGARCHY:
"they allow no one whose property falls below the amount fixed to have any share in the government."

yea that totally happens.

"What are the characteristics of this form of government," you might ask?
"Just think what would happen if pilots were to be chosen according to their property, and a poor man were refused permission to steer, even though he were a better pilot?"

Quote:
The Death / rationing panel is meant to reduce the cost to the private-for profit insurance companies. This will allow them a federal mandate to deny care thus saving them money. We have to remember that this is an insurance bailout in the disguise as a healthcare bill for the people. It's not meant to reduce the cost of beneficial programs like disability pensions.
Maybe you should start your own insurance company instead of assuming that no organization should ever CUT COSTS OMG. Again: Who gives a shit if these people are denied or not? There's nothing in this world that guarantees people health and good fortune.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 03:05 AM       
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how can there even be a world wide oligarchy? The world isn't a state, or maybe it is to Coolinator he's all into that ONE GUBERMENT TAKe ovER ILLUMINATI SHIT prolly.
I don't know if he means oligarchs all over the world in control, or one big group of oligarchs in control of the whole world. I suppose it will go either way depending on the situation and arguments presented.

What gets me is the massively simplistic view of it. The denial of social revolutions throughout history having any change on things. It's the rich ruling the poor, oh, and also the rich wanting to kill the poor. If you broke down most ruling classes through history, then yes, it's the people who are in charge are well off, BUT why stop your investigation there? Why not delve deeper into the insanely complicated workings of social relations than Rich rules Poor (and also wants to genocide them)? Because it's easier, that's why. Because you can argue anything if you keep your base facts (PFFFTTT) vague enough.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:13 AM       
one time i heard this one conspiracy that somewhere in utah is a rock which says that the world should only have half a million people in it and this is proof the illuminati is gonna kill everyone

maybe its something like that
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Old May 6th, 2010, 06:21 AM       
Like... like a speaking rock?


Anyway, if they were in charge of the world's armies, tanks, planes, chemical and biological weapons and nuclear stockpiles, and they wanted to kill everyone but themselves, why wouldn't they just do it, man?
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:04 AM       
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one time i heard this one conspiracy that somewhere in utah is a rock which says that the world should only have half a million people in it and this is proof the illuminati is gonna kill everyone

maybe its something like that

You may be talking about these rocks, located in Georgia, called the "Georgia Guidestones"; they're somewhat misleadingly referred to as the "American Stonehenge" as they were erected recently.



I think it's more like a "How to rebuild society after the apocalypse" primer.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:49 AM       
That looks awesome. I haven't seen Stonehenge, but I have seen the oldest standing stones in the British Isles (possibly world???); Calanais, which were just out the back of some guy's house.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 06:54 AM       
its not everyone but themselves its everyone except like 480,000 slaves and 20,000 oligarchs or some shit. also its just carvings on a rock or something

i guess they are waiting for the chosen time when our alien/lizard overlords come back to claim us as a slave race.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:38 PM       
that might be what it is Colonel Flag but illuminati conspiracy people treat it as their intention to dwindle the world's population down to 500,000 people. I've heard A LOT of people say this too.

and that is what they are i think.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:40 PM       
http://www.rense.com/general16/georgiaguidestones.htm

there's some hella coolinator stuff on here:
The Guidestones' emphasis on preserving nature anticipates the environmental movement of the 1990s

:O :O :O :O
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Old May 6th, 2010, 08:54 PM       
I'm hoping he actually goes and reads some of that stuff.

EDIT: Especially the part about RC Christian being Ted Turner. Ooooooh Spooky.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:02 PM       
Ya, Ya,

I know about the guide stones. They were made by some weirdos. I think they are near a highway or something too. I'm really not impressed by a bunch of rocks by a roadway.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:40 PM       
Wow. Just when you think you have someone pegged ....
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:58 PM       
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Another thing; if the "oligarchs" wanted to cull the population, why would they go through such inefficient means such as rationing health care, rather than, say, a chemical bomb of some sort?
..
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