Who's pulling the protestor's strings? (editorial)

[Zhukov]

A FEW?!


You ain't seen a commie union rally, you aint seen a union rally.


I ain't seen any union rallies.

[VinceZeb]

Kelly, why are they unemployed?

What jobs did they do BEFORE the recession hit?

When did the recession start?

Besides the hi-tech jobs going over to India and some manufacturing to other countries, what other skills did these people ever have? If they had good skills to begin with, they would be able to go to another job in a small amount of time.

It's just like the people at the Ford plant here in St. Louis that whine about losing their 60,000 dollar a year job to screw a nut onto a bolt while standing at an assembly line because they worked there for 20+ years and never thought of persuing their education or even thought of the fact they may lose their job and have to do something that took a bit more brains.

[Zhukov]

Who cares about what Clinton did to destroy peoples jobs and the economy, Kelly could be merely commenting on why they are angry.

I would love to know what you do for a living.

[VinceZeb]

I work in a weird cross between MIS and marketing at this new job I acquired about 2 months ago. I make a nice deal of money. I got the job because a) I go to school and am going to earn two degrees and 2) I worked at jobs that helped me improve various skills, I was always gung-ho with anything I did and d) I'd show backbone when no one else would.

[Zhukov]

a) What is MIS?

2) Do you go to school or did you mean to say "I went to school..."

[VinceZeb]

It can be known as Management Implamentation Systems or Management Information Systems. Take your pick.

I'm still in college right now.

[mburbank]

A.) "A nice deal of money" is meaningless statement, even colloquially.
2.) I'm glad you're certain you'll never be out of work for long. People who are certain nothing bad will; ever happen to them are known for coping really well if it does.
D.) A; 2; D... if it were anyone, anyone else at all, I'd be certain that was on purpose.

[El Blanco]

I'd hate to get this discussion back on track, but, I thought ANSWER ran most of the big protests?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

They had a key role in most of the recent anti-war rallies, but that's a fairly recent phenomenon. Many in "the movement" despise ANSWER anyway, so by the time things got really heated up, ANSWER had kind of taken a secondary role....

[El Blanco]

I have been wondering, what if we had this kind of media in the 1860s? Would Lincoln have had this problem? Washington? FDR?

And I am also one of those who sincerely doubt all of these are completly spontaneous. I am not saying its some evil organization, but the organization to mobilize this sort of this thing takes serious backing.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Most of it is very grassroots, and you're right, the internet plays a HUGE role. Various interests do donate money, but that has little to do with getting people there. Much of it is word of mouth. www.indymedia.org has also had a BIG role in this....

[Perndog]

Ahh, Vince is a budding marketroid. That explains a little bit.

[Dole]

'If you work in advertising or marketing....KILL YOURSELVES' -Bill Hicks. Please do it Vince.

[Abcdxxxx]

If you mean using the ANSWER banner is a new phenomenon then you're right... but the Workers World Party aren't new. While ANSWER might not be the most beloved, their rallies are widely attended, and uniformely supported, even by their critics. Is it enough to stand in a unified hatred against Bush when your standing alongside those who have supported people like Milosevic?

The point being, these organizations have agendas (because that's what organizations do!) and there is no reason that these politically righteous groups should attempt to water down, or hide their true politics if they truly believe their cause is just....really why should they feel the need to dupe or confuse their supporters? The movement is supposed to be made up of socially conscious and informed people, not pawns. This moral question exists with or without a Bush in the world.

Seriously, two days after the bombing stops, people without natural resources are marching in a country where un-sanctioned assembly is outlawed, their dictatorship government is still un-accounted for, and in several areas, still under Saddam's control....and just by pure inspired hatred for Bush, thousands found markers, large banners, and carried the ecxact duplicate of signs being used by organized and advertised protests in several nations.... all because the wonder that is the internet?????

Also who are Indymedia backed by? Someone told me and I've actually forgotten.

[VinceZeb]

Dole, funny you should metion Hick's little quote. I figured one of the troglodytes would spew it out sooner or later. Sales and marketing people make the world go round, they made hicks money by booking his shows. There is a quote I like which goes “If two people totally agree on something, one of them is unnecessary.” God saw fit to give Hicks a bit of the cancer because we had too many stupid unfunny whiners in our society and George Carlin was tired of some second-rate tub of shit taking his act. He is respected because he died young. Just like JFK, Hendrix, Cobain, etc.

Pern, I make good money and I don't bullshit. That means to them I'm a "breath of fresh air" when all I'm saying to them is common sense.

And why the hell would I tell you all how much money I make

There, hijacking of this thread is over.

[mburbank]

God saw fit to give Ronald Reagan Alzheimers. God saw fit to give Lee Atwater a brain Tumor. God saw fit to give you bi-polar disorder. God saw fit to kill your dad. God saw fit to let two airplanes hit the twin towers and kill a few thousand innocent people. God saw fit to let two the towers collapse on firemen and policemen trying to evacuate the building. That's swell God you believe in Matilda. Personlly, I think God is going to send you to hell for being such a man spirited sack of crap. I don't think you deserve eternal damnation, but God's much more petty than I am.

Now, having dealt with the man whom God tells who he kills and why;



I went to two large anti war protests. No one paid my way their. I went because I was an am morally opposed to the war. I learned about one on the news and one from an email forwarded to me by a friend.

So, who pulled my strings? I have access to the same information and the same media as everyone else. I can and do sort through it like everyone else. Sure, various causes and interest try to convince me or manipulate me in multiple directions. Are the pro war folks not subject to the exact same influences?

What aspects of the 'organization' do you see as requiring some sort of shadowy cabal? Permits? Booking speakers?

Even if there were some Cabal, isn't it possible that lots of people agree with them? Aren't you choosing to call a movement a cabal?

Who's pulling thr 'strings' at the upcoming Republican convention in NYC? That requires a massive amount of money and organization! Why it's the secret cabal, the Republican Party!

I find being told my political beliefs and actions are the result of string pulling. A big hearty fuck you to anyone who thinks so.

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

Kelly, why are they unemployed?

There are a variety of reasons that the auto industries fluctuate. I know a number of people that would get laid off during model change over for about a month every year while the engineers and millrights make their modifications to the assembly line. It's a natural part of the business. It's a fragile market. Something like the WTC getting destroyed can create reprecussions that set the market back for years. Another part of it is that foreign manufacturers have the reputation of making better quality cars right now. While I don't think that the gap in quality is a big as it used to be, the reputation persists and it may take the american market years to bounce back. Add to that the fact that the union's were probably thinking too short sighted in offering the union workers some of the wages they receive without looking to see whether the market was there for the consequently high prices (which was necessary to maintain their desired profit margin) on their cars.

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

What jobs did they do BEFORE the recession hit?

I would think that a lot of them were doing skilled labor manufacturing jobs but not necessarily so. A wide spectrum of jobs were also hit by the recession. What difference does it make? They were employed and paying their fair share of taxes.

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

Besides the hi-tech jobs going over to India and some manufacturing to other countries, what other skills did these people ever have? If they had good skills to begin with, they would be able to go to another job in a small amount of time.

What do you mean by "good" skills. Their skills ARE their job. If the market is not there, their job is not there. It's not like the jobs that, say, your mother might get for you at an assisted living place. Are you saying that they should be punished to be putting their time, money, and training into a manufacturing job? While I'm not saying that the assembly line jobs are not important, there are a lot of people that have skilled jobs like engineers, mill rights, electricians, ect that rely on the auto manufacturers for their paycheck as well.

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

It's just like the people at the Ford plant here in St. Louis that whine about losing their 60,000 dollar a year job to screw a nut onto a bolt while standing at an assembly line because they worked there for 20+ years and never thought of persuing their education or even thought of the fact they may lose their job and have to do something that took a bit more brains.

You are obviously talking in the abstract because I've known a lot of these guys and a good number of them are intelligent people ... sort of like when you were spouting off about the military ... another subject you obviously didn't know shit about other than what you'd heard or seen in the movies. If you were fortunate enough to make union wages and the union promised that you'd have it for your working life, you'd probably take the job. A lot of those guys make more money than people with a four-year degree. Hell, a lot of them HAVE four-year degrees and couldn't find work in their respective fields. That doesn't make labor a LOWER job in the heirarchy, just a DIFFERENT job. If you ever had to go out on your own and bust your ass for 40-60 hours a week, you'd know that. You're so far removed from reality ... it's ... it's just amusing really.

[VinceZeb]

Yeah, I don't work or nothing... idiot. I work over 40+ hours a week at 6 days a week. I am also on call. Sorry to disappoint your view of me not doing anything. But I love how that is everyone's counterpoint. "Oh, if you had to do this or that, you wouldn't say anything."

I’ve worked at shit jobs and now I have a great one. I earned it. I went out and was the best person for the job. A lot of those people that earn more money than people with degrees are being paid those highway robbery wages because of the unions. I know janitors that don’t do shit that get paid 70,000 a year. I also know the extreme side of people that are overworked and underpaid. I used to be that. I don’t feel sorry for the uneducated janitor that doesn’t have his 70,000/yr job when someone can do it for 30,000. That is good economics.

I wouldn’t join a union out of principle. I’m an individual and I want my compensation based on my value to the company, not some commie-fuck group effort. I’m my own person, not a cog in some union machine.

Edit: Kelly, if I learned everything about the military from the movies, I would think they were nothing more than murderous, rapists pawns in a U.S. war machine. In other words, I would be a leftist retard.

[mburbank]

Vinthy, God is going to give you a little of the cancer for telling so many lies.

[Zhukov]

[color=USA]Don't be a cog in the union machine!

Show your freedom through the capitalist dream![/USA]

[kellychaos]

You sound a lil' jealous, Vinth. Are you gonna cry now?

[mburbank]

No, he'll just sue when he gets fired for being an idiot.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

If you mean using the ANSWER banner is a new phenomenon then you're right... but the Workers World Party aren't new.

Right, but regarding their involvement in having lead roles in organizing the more recent (and large) American protests, this is relatively new....

While ANSWER might not be the most beloved, their rallies are widely attended, and uniformely supported, even by their critics.

It has been their critics who have blown open the contradictions in this organization, and yes, much like nations and real human beings often choose strange bed fellows, the protest movement has been no different.

However, the news about ANSWER took time to travel. I went to one of their rallies in DC almost two years ago, and at the time was not very familiar with them. After I had become more aware, I chose not to attend. The last massive rally in NYC deliberately excluded ANSWER to a great extent, primarily because of their background...

The point being, these organizations have agendas (because that's what organizations do!) and there is no reason that these politically righteous groups should attempt to water down, or hide their true politics if they truly believe their cause is just....really why should they feel the need to dupe or confuse their supporters? The movement is supposed to be made up of socially conscious and informed people, not pawns. This moral question exists with or without a Bush in the world.

ANSWER isn't merely the Workers World Party with a new name. If you think that, you're wrong. It serves as an umbrella group, involving many who could care less about global socialism, or whatever.

Seriously, two days after the bombing stops, people without natural resources are marching in a country where un-sanctioned assembly is outlawed, their dictatorship government is still un-accounted for, and in several areas, still under Saddam's control....and just by pure inspired hatred for Bush, thousands found markers, large banners, and carried the ecxact duplicate of signs being used by organized and advertised protests in several nations.... all because the wonder that is the internet?????

Have any examples??

Also who are Indymedia backed by? Someone told me and I've actually forgotten.

I'm refraining from making a snide comment....

IMC spawned from the '99 Seattle protest. It started as a few folks with video recorders and some computer know-how. If you think the internet hasn't been the key catalyst behind these things, or if you think something even more absurd like it's being financed by a collective of some evil Islamic OPEC tycoons, you're nuts (and really quite ironic). I've been active in these rallies, and I've had bit roles in organization here and there. IndyMedia in Austin just had a pot luck dinner to raise finances. IndyMedia back in my home city of Albany have no dough at all. Their Al Quada checks must've gotten lost in the mail. :/

[Abcdxxxx]

Indymedia isn't a geocities site. Your bake sales are a drop in the bucket to pay for the bandwidth that keeps the main umbrella site running.

Indymedia is a curated site with the socialist agenda of the larger organization it came from. The people who founded it continue to promote ASNWER events, and have consciously decided to continue their relationship with them. It's my understanding they've also recieved fiscal support from them too. These rallies are all expenditures....full time activists are an expenditure... promotion is an expenditure.... press releases are expenditures... staffing and organizing a rally comes with expenditures.... owning a computer, a pda, or a cell phone and whatever other tools being exploited by grass roots activists are ALL expenditures.

Foriegn governments have been involved in the radical movement for years without apology... it's only recently that they've began to obscure this fact. Most of the seed groups that people like Not in Our Name or ANSWER grew out of used to openly admit this. It's not a secret that Lybia sponsored the SDS, The Black Panthers, The Weather Underground, the Nation of Islam, and a slew of other political groups who were all very proud of it.

So a conspiracy might be far fetched, but there is some truth to the claims that foriegn governments are funding dissent. It's not that much different then when we drop leaflets in Afghanistan, or whatever. It's just scary that supposedly politically aware Americans can think they're above this, or think they're so self righteous that they can make a joke out of the possibility that they're pawns.

[mburbank]

"So a conspiracy might be far fetched, but there is some truth to the claims that foriegn governments are funding dissent. "

See, that's what's great about America. We never pull that kind of crap. Plus, our conservative movements never get any funding at all from other countries.