watch the prisoner abuse scandal widen

[AChimp]

Chimp, I think It would be a lot easier for you to admit you didn't understand it. Done.

I understand that you were speaking out of your ass. Is that how I'm supposed to interpret it?

You have failed in every way to relate the torture of prisoners to the act of hazing.

[Abcdxxxx]

This will be the last time I rephrase this for the confused....

Sodomy, humiliation with Womens underwear, stripping victims down, verbal abuse, and holding forced poses for extreme periods of time are hallmark tactics of hazing, and unique to crimes we label hazing-like, a term commonly associated with prison abuse in cases when relevant. Torture, beatings, and murder, are not to be minimized or written of as simply pranks or hazings, but in specific cases such as this one, it would be a diservice to ignore the relevance and reflections of hazing like activities or mentalities, inherent with the tragedy. Curing this problem will involve more then firing Rumsfeld.

[sspadowsky]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

This will be the last time I rephrase this for the confused....

Sodomy, humiliation with Womens underwear, stripping victims down, verbal abuse, and holding forced poses for extreme periods of time are hallmark tactics of hazing, and unique to crimes we label hazing-like, a term commonly associated with prison abuse in cases when relevant. Torture, beatings, and murder, are not to be minimized or written of as simply pranks or hazings, but in specific cases such as this one, it would be a diservice to ignore the relevance and reflections of hazing like activities or mentalities, inherent with the tragedy. Curing this problem will involve more then firing Rumsfeld.

If, after they were tortured, the Iraqis were given housing on fraternity row, lots of beer and shots, a stupid chapter "fight song," and perhaps an intramural volleyball team, I might agree with you; otherwise, it's a shitty analogy.

[Perndog]

The only thing you prove by continually pointing out these "hallmarks of hazing" is that the perpetrators were young, playful, cruel assholes as opposed to old, jaded cruel assholes.

And did you ever stop to think that half of the point of those specific abuses is that they are particularly degrading to Muslims and their sexual taboos? Huh? No, you were too caught up in your frat boy analogy. DO SOME FUCKING BRAIN WORK AND QUIT REPEATING YOURSELF.

[punkgrrrlie10]

and now they can join the fight against us too: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...use/index.html

Lemme think, if I rape, torture and humiliate some iraqis during the middle of trying to keep their country under control b/c they hate us...let's just release some prisoners!!!! GREAT IDEA!

[kellychaos]

Mesobe, I find your avatar offensive no matter what kind of "statement" you're trying to make.

[mburbank]

I guess I better grow up and be less stupid.

All of us here understand what you're saying, absdvctgedbdb. Except for the part about punishing Rumsfeld not solving things (and I don't think anyone said it would.) I think your 'observation'/analogy syucks, and I think your continued deffnese of it (and I understood you te first time) indicates what a prick you are.

This is what's called a disagreement. You have an idea. I get the idea. I think your idea is wrong. I think the idea you have reveals you to be a prick. I think as in observation it illuminates nothing. I think that becuase these accts in some cases shared some aspects of Hazing is a fairly shallow aspect to lock onto. It shared some aspects with gay porn too, but no one's calling these 'gay porn like' offenses. Becuase it would be stupid, offensive and belittling to do so.

If you think that someone disagreeing with you means they need to grow up, then yeah, I guess I do. I understand what you are saying. I think it means you're an idiot.

[kellychaos]

An investigation is the very least they can do and the administration is acting as if they're pulling out all the stops and doing something novel and profound. Besides, the more I see that humanity vacuum (aka Rumsfeld), the more I think that a he and some of his staff are probably, in a big way, responsible for the mindset of the military leadership over there either in terms of agreement or by intimidation. It's gauling to me that he acts suprised by these types of events when this mindset and the standard of living he provides for the soldiers is partly to blame.

[Abcdxxxx]

You didn't simply disagree, you acted as if you couldn't fathom the connection or the signifigance. Perndog's reaction is classic immaturity. By using some descriptives, he thinks I haven't aknowledged other aspects such as the religious degradation aspect. They are all important bits to be considered, and to talk about here. I think it's you guys who are belittling the events, and reacting in an opportunistic manner.

There's been one post about Mesobe's avatar, and a billion about my "offensive" use of the word "hazing". Obviously you all have great priorities.

[mesobe]

Originally Posted by kellychaos

Mesobe, I find your avatar offensive no matter what kind of "statement" you're trying to make.

I find your mom offensive. dont fucking look at it then.

Bill Waterson would be offended that you perverted one of his creations.

[punkgrrrlie10]

you're a dumb ass.

[Perndog]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

You didn't simply disagree, you acted as if you couldn't fathom the connection or the signifigance. Perndog's reaction is classic immaturity. By using some descriptives, he thinks I haven't aknowledged other aspects such as the religious degradation aspect. They are all important bits to be considered, and to talk about here. I think it's you guys who are belittling the events, and reacting in an opportunistic manner.

There's been one post about Mesobe's avatar, and a billion about my "offensive" use of the word "hazing". Obviously you all have great priorities.

Gosh, I remember how fun high school was, when to call someone immature was the ultimate insult.

If you've acknowledged other factors in the issue, why don't you talk about them a little instead of driving your tired hazing idea further into the ground?

Oh, and people don't use descriptives to think. We use them to describe. Learn some grammar and people will like you better.

[Abcdxxxx]

Stop worrying about my popularity, and go back to pretending you care about the Iraqi's.

[mburbank]

"You didn't simply disagree, you acted as if you couldn't fathom the connection or the signifigance."

Wrong. I can't fathom who someone who wasn't a dick would find the connection significant in any way shape or form. It's shallow, uninformative, callow and useless. I think it shows a striking lack of understanding.

Your insistence that my opinion HAS to stem from not getting you is arrogant and you constantly confuse familiarity with piles of details with intelligence.

[mesobe]

man, it reallly, really sucks to be american right now. I feel for all of you

[Abcdxxxx]

Being informed has it's merits.

Anyway you must have really struggled through theory class. You're knee jerk reaction is to assume I was writing off the tortures as hazing the way Rush, and many Conservatives have, because well, if you use the same language, you must be the same stripe, even if you're saying something totally different. If we're talking arrogance, h'bout your "with us or against us" attitude ? Why, I'd say it's rather GW of you.

Now that we've exhuasted the topic of me and my personality defects (because after all kids, this is a message board, and I'm not prone to spending time at your Mocker jamborees, or giving you love advice in the other forums) why don't we discuss the Iraqi's again? You know, not to be informative or nothing but....

4,000 prisoners died in Abu Ghraib prison in 1984 alone. 122 political prisoners were killed in one month of 2000. Around 130 women were beheaded between June and April of 2001. Friday prayer for Sh'ites was illegal, and the majority of torture victims were from the religious party.

So Burbank.... what was that bullshit you were saying at the beginning of this post about people caring, the writing of books, and Amnesty International? Unlike Conservatives, I'm not saying Saddam's actions excuse our own. I don't want to see the US acting in even the slightest resemblance of Saddam's torture houses, (they should be closed and destroyed, not preserved like Warsaw) but I do think you need a wake up call if you're going to act like you give a shit, because this moral equivalency of yours comes off as souless pandering.

[Anonymouse]

This is the stupidest war we have ever fought.

"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

[mburbank]

I agree. I'm done.

[Perndog]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Stop worrying about my popularity, and go back to pretending you care about the Iraqi's.

I'm not the liberal here. I never spoke a word about morals or sympathy for them or for us or for whomever. Pay attention.

I'm done too, though.

[kellychaos]

Originally Posted by mesobe

Bill Waterson would be offended that you perverted one of his creations.

I think that his parents would be upset that you desecrated one of THEIR creations. Think about it. He's a human being not a charicature, a political symbol, ext and you, sir, are an ass.

[mburbank]

If you don't feel like reading this whole article, the main points are:
1.) More cases under investigation than previously acknowledged
2.) Another disk of photos found
3.) A red cross report sent down the chin of command and never followed up on.


Army General Says U.S. Has 75 Prison Abuse Cases


By Alan Elsner
Reuters

WASHINGTON - The U.S. military has investigated 75 cases of abuse of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan since late 2002, suggesting that mistreatment was more widespread than previously acknowledged, the head of the U.S. Central Command said on Wednesday.

Army Gen. John Abizaid, who is responsible for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, told the Senate Armed Services Committee there were systemic problems at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, where U.S. personnel took photographs of detainees being abused and sexually humiliated that have shocked and angered Americans and fueled anti-American anger overseas.

"The total number of detainee abuse cases that have been investigated since I believe the beginning of the conflict in Afghanistan is around 75," Abizaid told the committee.

He said the army was still investigating several homicides in Afghanistan that went as far back as December 2002 and which needed to be resolved quickly.

"Abuse has happened in Afghanistan, it's happened in Iraq, it's happened at various places. I think the question before us: is there a systemic abuse problem with regard to interrogation that exists in the Central Command area of operations," Abizaid said.

He promised to follow the trail of evidence wherever it led and hold accountable those who are responsible

Committee Chairman John Warner told the hearing the Defense Department has located another disc of images related to abuses of Iraqi detainees.

"I've just been informed ... that another disc of pictures has been located, and I'll soon advise the committee on the conditions under which and the timing they can be viewed," the Virginia Republican said.

Also testifying were Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of ground forces in Iraq, and Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, deputy commander for detainee operations in Iraq.

Sanchez said that his order putting an intelligence officer in tactical control of the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, previously used as a torture center under former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, was for security purposes. It did not place military police at the jail under the control of intelligence officials.

He also said he had issued several directives in 2003 and 2004 making it clear prisoners were to be treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions and requiring that "all interrogations be conducted in a lawful and humane manner, with command oversight."

FACE PUBLIC OPINION

Some of the military police have charged that they were ordered to help "soften up" prisoners for interrogation.

Warner said it was time for top U.S. military leaders to face American and world public opinion.

Sen. Carl Levin, a Michigan Democrat, asked about warnings from the International Committee of the Red Cross that Iraqi prisoners were being abused that surfaced as early as May 2003, months before the U.S. military launched its first investigation.

Abizaid said he was aware of the report and sent it for comments to a lower-ranking officer but never received a written reply. He acknowledged that this suggested there was a problem in the way the U.S. military handled Red Cross complaints.

[Mockery]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/ma...tort-m18.shtml

[Cosmo Electrolux]

wow...I would LOVE to see Rummy and Shrub in a war crime tribunal....

[mburbank]

"The defense secretary also met with 12 senators over breakfast Tuesday morning and, sources said, he criticized the hearings, saying they were becoming a distraction to the war effort in Iraq.

"He did express frustration that, at some point, additional hearings are counterproductive in terms of the optimal use of his time and the time of the combatant commanders in fighting and winning the war on terror," said Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas."
-Ap wire

Seriously? These hearings aren't an optimal use of his time? Well, since his testimony is clearly called for, maybe he should resign.

[Cosmo Electrolux]

"I'm too busy to be brought up on charges. If you put me in prison, the terrorists win"