Who here is Jewish?

[Preechr]

It's funny because you're shitting on a parade with a parade of shit.

[kahljorn]

You're just figuring out my pattern of shitting on shit parades with parades of shit?
I thought it was obvious.

[Sethomas]

Actually, Kahl, I said recently in another thread that the LXX is the edition used for OT citations in the New Testament. The New Testament was written in various qualities of Koine Greek, but they always cited the Hellenistic Greek of the LXX. This is significant because it's the crux of the argument over whether or not Christians should regard the deuterocanonical books (also derisively called The Apocrypha, which can refer to a larger corpus of works as well) as part of the Bible, put them in a separate place in the Bible for "historical reference", or omit them entirely.

At the Council of Jerusalem, as I think it was called, in like the AD 90s or so the Israeli Jews decided that those books whose authorship was in Greek rather than Hebrew should be excluded from their canon. As I said, this was mostly for poltical and social reasons--they wanted to denegrate the Jews living in Alexandria as being inferior to those in Palestine. The odd thing is, though, that most of the books in question do have contemporaneous Hebrew translations and especially Maccabees I & II speak intimately of Jewish history within the Holy Land.

At any rate, Martin Luther didn't hesitate to throw them out because of their interference with his views, and virtually all Protestants followed suit.

[Abcdxxxx]

Seth, I'm not entirely sure what you're referencing, as my knowledge of the Torah is pretty much limited to it's history from Judaic perspective. I can tell you that the Torah was handed down and copied by hand, and once it became standardized there was no deviation allowed. It's still copied with brush and ink to this day. That tradition continued even once Jews became a Diaspora - so it wasn't a case of Nationalism so much as a belief . No more books could be added. While some sects had adopted various addendums of varied authenticity, they were denominational/regional. The Jews of Yemen are a good example, with some unique beliefs, and unique texts, but they're a rare case of a segregated tribe who have continued their own traditions by again, copying them to the letter. There are many instances of Jews living under certain rulership where they adopted some variations in the Torah, but that's not the same as a group like the Yemenite Jews that were true to themselves. Plus Aramaic/Hebrew to Greek is a sloppy process from what I understand.

[Sethomas]

How many Hebrew speakers were literate before Ptolemy, though?

[Abcdxxxx]

No idea what Jewish literacy was like at the time, but I do know that there's a difference between the Oral traditions of the Talmud/Midrash, and the Torah itself, which was read to congregants by the Kohen Gadol. So even if literacy was a Rabbinical priviledge, the Torah was still kept through a literary tradition. By the time the Torah was translated to Greek it was seen as an offense akin to the Golden Calf, because it was believed a translation was impossible. I believe the Torah as one compiled book is credited to Ezra the Scribe around 400 BCE -348 BCE.

[Sethomas]

Dude, as far as I know there are no surviving texts of any part of the Hebrew Scriptures dating earlier than around 1000 AD. Obviously they did exist, but it does stick out that the Dead Sea Scrolls tend to agree more with the verbiage of the LXX than of the later accepted Hebrew texts. Regardless of what was believed at the time of its authorship, even Josephus exhalted the LXX as being divinely inspired in its own right. There's no way you can compare the validity between the oral tradition and the LXX because although we have Greek fragments dating to the Persian Empire, I think the oldest Hebrew representations are medieval. So, the idea that the current accepted texts in Hebrew are any more similar to what the Jews studied orally than a translation into Greek is pretty worthless from a historical criticism POV.

I did mean Tanakh or whatever it's called, and not Torah. Rip me a new one for that.

[Abcdxxxx]

Eh, I think ultimately it comes down to a difference in beliefs. There are Jews like the Karanites, who are growing in numbers, that reject the oral tradition entirely...then at the same time you have sects such as the Lubavitchers who are far more fluid in their defintion of these scriptures. The oral tradition is a constant source of debate, even conflict amongst Jews ,so these particular beliefs don't just vary from temple to temple, but from household to household. Nothing you can turn up through an archealogical dig will persuade them otherwise - it's a matter of tradition. Hebrew (especially ancient hebrew) just doesn't translate so well. So to Jews there is nothing purer then a Torah copied from one to another and passed on over Centuries. You're not just talking about a translation, but a translation that deviates from that which mainstream Jews believe...so of course we dispute that. The Talmud is a lot more muddy in that it accepts counterviews, the wisdom of converts, moralist fables, and laws which may or may not have been accepted over time. Anyway, long story short, if you've ever read an English translation of any of this stuff it's pretty obviouse how drastically different it is from the Christian versions... so again, it just comes down to belief. I can't point to specific examples, because of my own linguistic limitations - but if portions of that early Greek translation have no basis in historical Judaism, and these earliest examples weren't recognized by Jews - then there's little else to say. The Greek examples probably originated from the Babylonian text - but rather then take this translation, Jews believed, and still believe they're working off the original lineage of the Ezra scribed works.

[Sethomas]

The LXX was initiated in Alexandria around 250 BC. I don't know where you got the whole Babylonian Greek thing, but whatever. Enlighten me. I mentioned the Dead Sea Scrolls because they're pre-Christian Hebrew that represent the oral tradition. I've heard-tell that they were slanted by some Jewish sect's motives (the Ascenes maybe?), but the fact that they do align very well with the LXX of some 200 or so years earlier does make it an apples-to-apples comparison.

[Abcdxxxx]

Simply put, Jews reject the Septuagint, rarely consider the Apocrypha. Obviously, you would have to apply the Christian notion of religion and religious text to Judaism for it to be relevant. Hellenistic Jews translated the works from the Babylonians, so that Jews could still worship even after losing their Hebraic tradition at the hands of persecution. Jews started to rethink the usage of translated works once Christians started to use them as primary versions, above what was believed to be the more pure Hebrew sources. The "Passover scroll" of the Elephantine papyri, which contains detailed instructions on how to celebrate the Pesakh holiday in accordance with the Torah, is dated around 400 BCE, and it is by no means the earliest such source. The oldest Sh'ma prayer exists on copper plates from the 9th Century BCE. The oldest physical Torah fragments are from around the 3rd or 4th Century BCE. They were transcribed from Hebrew to Aramaic since the goal was to be understood.

[Archduke Tips]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

No, though I'm familiar with chaos magic.

Haha what the fuck, is this a big joke?

Level 7 dark wizard chaos magic will rule us all.

[The One and Only...]

Chaos magic is just paradigm shifting. Spare talked on it.

[kahljorn]

chaos magic could probably be described as Jungian magic.

[mburbank]

Q: "How many Hebrew speakers were literate before Ptolemy, though?"

A: "6"


And One and Only, you are such an idiot it beggars the immagination. Mister Philosiphy professor is now into "Magik"! Let me guess, you got yourself a copy of "promethea", acquired a woody over it and being the IMMENSE DORKOGANZA you are, you HAD to go all apeshit over it becaue obviosuly anything you liked MUST be all serious and TRUTHY so now you're pouring through the occult shelf at your local used book store and thinking you're a MAGUS instead of a big thighed weiner. Can't all your posts be confined to a single thread, or maybe even a forum all your own titled "Where the One and Only Masturbates While Gazing in a Mirror"?

[The One and Only...]

I don't make a big deal out of it. Usually, the people who do are half-deluded anyway.

I don't think of myself as a "MAGUS." In fact, I kind of hate the term magic - especially magick. If anything, I think of myself as a mystic or alchemist.

Been considering joining the masons one day though.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by The One and Only...

Been considering joining the masons one day though.

A close friend of mine was the national president of what is essentially their college republicans. I'll put in a good word, daffy!

[mburbank]

Oh, and Alchemist. Good, good, I was all worried you might be something absurd and humiliating, like a seeker or a doofus, or maybe a tool with chunky thighs.

Is this what you concider yourself this week, Johnny Change-o-matic, a Mystik? Come on, it was too much Alan Moore and Niquil, wasn't it? You can tell us.

[Archduke Tips]

I like this thread because there are multiple conversations going on, and I am like the chorus that chimes in occasionally to comment on the action.

[kahljorn]

there's a masonic lodge right down the street from here but I really don't see why you'd want to be a mason it's just a social club.

"The primitive intellect reasoned very close to probability when it equated the fertility of the earth with the fertility of the female body, or when it regarded the rain-bearing cloud as a being capable of perception. Primitive man animated nature according to his own sensations and functions; he animated them, but he did not mysticize them, as did his successor several hundred years later. "Mysticism" here means, in the literal sense, a change of sensory impressions and organ sensations into something unreal and beyond this world. Anthropology teaches us that the devil with tail and pitchfork, or the angel with wings, is a late product of human imagination, not patterned on reality but originating from a distorted concept of reality. Both "devil" and "angel" correspond to human structural sensations that deviate basically from those of animals or primitive men."

[DuFresne]

I've got a friend whose dad is a Mason, and my friend will be one too as soon as he turns 18. I read the philosophy of the Masons at their website, and it's pretty attractive to me to be honest. I'd have to think hard before I do it, but I might ask my friend to helo me get in.

[kahljorn]

you can just go to any masonic lodge and ask for an application, maybe ask them for a tour because you're interested in them. The secret is to be confident but not full of yourself, they like that kind of stuff. You have to be a "Man". Sociable and honest.
the application has a picture of our past masonic presidents. Are you ready to join them?

[Archduke Tips]

Just another way to pay dues so you can have "friends."

[mburbank]

Can I be the first one to mention the Bavarian Illuminati? What do you think of the Bavarian Illuminati, OAO? Is that what you really secretly are, a Bavarian Illuminati? That would be SO AWESOME! Like you're all "Oh, I'm a big philosipher about terms I bet you never evebn heard of! No wait, now I'm a tenth level Mystic Hermetic Quablaistic Alchemist!" and like, while we're all thrown off guard and going "WOAH! OAO! I did NOT see THAT coming!" actually, secretly, the whoe time? You're like this big Bavarian Illuminati! OH! WAIT! Not a Bavarian Illuminati, what's that other thing?

A douchebag. Yeah, that's it.

A douchebag.

[kahljorn]

and yes russo's right you do have to pay dues. Mine was a 175 dollar annual fee if iremember right and you have to pay more whenever you change grades.
That's really not that much money, though.

[The One and Only...]

You were a mason?

From what I've gathered, the purpose of the masons is to increase communion with the divine using the symbols of the craftsman. Perhaps I am mistaken, gathering from your experience?