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Ronnie Raygun Ronnie Raygun is offline
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Old May 6th, 2003, 06:22 PM        Good news
http://www.nolalive.com/news/t-p/fro...4290268230.xml


Ban on suing gun makers set to pass

But opponents say they'll give it their all


Tuesday May 06, 2003


By Bruce Alpert
Washington bureau

WASHINGTON -- Opponents of legislation to give gun manufacturers and dealers immunity from civil lawsuits are vowing to make a last-ditch stand to block a vote in the Senate.

But prospects for congressional passage and a presidential signature look so good that Cincinnati's city council last week dropped its year-old litigation seeking compensation for gun-related violence.

The Cincinnati lawsuit -- similar to litigation New Orleans was forced to withdraw two years ago after the Legislature adopted legislation similar to the immunity bill pending in the Senate -- sought to hold manufacturers responsible for gun-related crimes in the city.

Gun-control advocates say lawsuits are their best option for stopping the flow of cheap handguns into the hands of criminals and others who are a danger to society.

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., whose husband was killed and son was wounded by a gunman on a New York commuter train in 1993, said gun lawsuits are sometimes the only way to ensure that gun dealers and manufacturers act lawfully. She said Congress has imposed a rule that severely limits when Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents can inspect federally licensed gun stores, often leaving litigation and pretrial discovery as the only way to uncover wrongdoing.

"The gun industry should be subject to the same legal standards of conduct that govern every other industry," McCarthy said. "What makes this particular industry so special? We all know that it is the lobbyists."

Sponsors of the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, including Louisiana Democratic Sens. John Breaux and Mary Landrieu, say that just as automobile manufacturers ought not to be held responsible when a drunken driver uses their product to take innocent lives, gun manufacturers should not be held liable when people use their products to kill or injure. The lawsuits, they say, would bankrupt the industry.

"I don't think you should hold gun manufacturers responsible for the wrongdoing of people who use the gun in the commission of a crime," said Landrieu, one of the bill's 52 Senate sponsors. Her support for the measure came last year during discussions with National Rifle Association representatives, who in return for her support agreed not to run the kind of opposition ads the group had aired in her first campaign.

Backers of the legislation need to pick up only eight additional votes to get the 60 needed to overcome a filibuster threatened by the measure's opponents, led by Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J. The bill passed the House by a 285-140 vote, and President Bush has said he would sign it into law.

But passage of the bill isn't guaranteed, at least in the form passed by the House.

Landrieu and Breaux are among lawmakers who expressed concern last week about statements from some of the bill's opponents that the legislation would block lawsuits against not only manufacturers, but also dealers who don't take the required steps to keep guns from people who shouldn't have them. That group includes convicted felons, the mentally ill and illegal immigrants.

One of the lawsuits that opponents say could be affected was filed by the widow of a Washington, D.C., bus driver killed during last fall's sniper attacks. The attacks, in which 13 people were slain, led congressional leaders to postpone a vote on the immunity legislation late last year.

In her suit, Denise Johnson alleges that her husband was killed by a rifle obtained illegally by one of the two defendants from a Tacoma, Wash., gun store with a history of lax inventory controls.

"Gun sellers and manufacturers shouldn't be above the law," Johnson wrote in a recent column offered to newspapers by gun control supporters. "If any other product injured my husband and irresponsible sellers played a part, I would be able to bring a case in court."

Under the bill, gun manufacturers and gun dealers, as well as trade associations, would be given immunity, although there is a provision that denies protection against lawsuits brought against a seller for "negligent entrustment or negligence per se." That standard, opponents of the bill say, is so high that it would make most lawsuits, including Johnson's, difficult if not impossible to pursue.

Landrieu said she will review the bill and is open to an amendment that clarifies that a lawsuit could be brought against a dealer "not living up to the law and following rules for selling weapons, and keeping appropriate inventory controls."

Breaux said a manufacturer shouldn't be held liable if a person uses one of its weapons for criminal purposes, but "it's a different story" for a gun dealer who sells a gun "for instance to someone who is talking about going out and killing someone."

Will Hart, spokesman for Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, the bill's chief sponsor, said the legislation does not bar lawsuits from being filed against dealers who knowingly and willfully violate state and federal gun laws or who are clearly negligent.

"Although the bill prohibits filing certain lawsuits, the way it would actually work is that a plaintiff would file the lawsuit and the defendant would answer with a motion to dismiss -- which would have to be ruled on by a judge," Hart said. "So, in other words, a plaintiff would still actually get to make the argument that his or her case should be allowed to go forward as an exception to the ban."

Opponents said the bill would give gun manufacturers and dealers protection not available to any other business. Congress has approved exemptions from litigation in limited cases, such as for certain American Indian tribes and for the airlines whose planes were hijacked in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, but this is significantly broader, said Timothy Lytton, a professor at Albany Law School who specializes in federal gun regulations.

But Rep. Chris John, D-Crowley, one of the chief sponsors of the legislation in the House, said it's not only the National Rifle Association and other groups pushing the law. He said communities dependent on gun-related jobs know that frivolous lawsuits threaten a legal industry worth billions of dollars to the national economy.

"Not only would continued frivolous lawsuits against gun manufacturers threaten the firearms industry, but it would have an enormous impact on many other businesses that are dependent on this industry," John said. "These lawsuits could have serious negative economic impact on the various hunting and sportsmen-related industries, which depend on safe, reliable gun manufacturing."

. . . . . . .

Bruce Alpert can be reached at bruce.alpert@newhouse.com or (202) 383-7861.
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Old May 6th, 2003, 06:39 PM       
Quote:
"Gun sellers and manufacturers shouldn't be above the law," ...

Under the bill, gun manufacturers and gun dealers, as well as trade associations, would be given immunity
damn

i wish this was left to states.. then people would have a choice and comparisons to say which set of laws is better.
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Old May 6th, 2003, 06:55 PM       
On the issue of whether it SHOULD be left to the states I disagree. Guns are like drugs. They hurt all citizens and traverse state lines. Places that would have little law on the purchase and sale would mean people would just order them shipped to them or buy them and truck them out to other places and sell them on the black market. Interstate commerce power of Congress my friend - plenary. This means that choice of law problems will suck ass when it comes to suing a company in another state. Also, the 2nd amendent has never been guaranteed to the states. It's in the bill of rights so it applies to the feds but has never been found to be incorporated by the 14th. At least not yet.
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Old May 6th, 2003, 07:02 PM       
They most certainly do not hurt all citizens. That is absolutely ridiculous and a terribly ignorant remark. Where on earth did you get that idea?
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Old May 6th, 2003, 07:17 PM       
Go look it up.....

No actually, I'm not talking directly genius. I'm speaking from a metaphysical type secondary effects position. Such as, the ready availabilty of guns to the population make it easier for those who would use them for ill-formed purposes to have them rather than having stringent safeguards which would make them at least have to pay through the nose for them. It makes it harder for retards to have them which wouldn't keep them from their kids getting them or at least teaching them how to use them. I'm not saying that everyone who has a gun goes out and shoots people.
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Old May 6th, 2003, 09:16 PM       
More Guns, Less Crime

Just ask Jon Lott Jr.
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Old May 6th, 2003, 10:00 PM       
I would agree that postulate CAN work, but it's miles away from being an absolute truth. I am a firm believer in the citizen's right to own a gun, but it's only sane to say that a life of crime can forfeit this right. I also believe in registration of certain types of weapons, and believe that trigger locks should be advocated with greater zeal.

As I see things at first glance, I would imagine that the lax enforcement of gun control policies would be the fault of the gun dealerships and distributors, not the makers of the guns themselves. If a gun sale takes place under unlawful terms and a death comes about, WHOEVER IS RESPONSIBLE AT THE POINT OF SALE should be held accountable. I honestly don't see how Smith and Wesson would be at fault if an ex-convict buys a gun from Grandpa Jeb's Pistol Palace, but if there is a direct line of reason therein then let me know.

I do, however, tend to think that any immunity granted in the legal system is an open invitation to abuse. I would have to see the precise language of the bill in order to really take a side on this particular issue, but I'm far too lazy.
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Old May 7th, 2003, 09:26 AM       
Golly, that is good news! I would hate to think that the makers and distributers of guns would be held accountable for the way they are used. I feel the same way about Heroin, which taken in moderation is a great painkiller. Why should poppy growers and heroin distributers be held accountable for the missuse of their product?

I think alll citizens should be aloowed to on and use any weapon they want, as long as they use it responsibly. When a student builds a pipe bomb in his basement, who's to say it in't a perfectlty harmless science experiment? If I want to buy and sell stinger missiles is that the governments buisness? And is it my fault if someone who buys one of those stinger missiles than uses it to shoot down a helicopter?

Am I my brother's keeper?


















Oh, crap! I just remembered. The biblical answer to that question, posed by the murderer Cain, was yes.
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Old May 7th, 2003, 09:29 AM       
We should sue letter-opener manufactures because a letter opener can be used to kill someone.

Fly your USSR flag on May Day, Max?
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Old May 7th, 2003, 10:26 AM       
I might be wrong, but I think the number of letter opener related deaths is still pretty much zero. If it starts climbing and the manufactores start marketing them as weapons and selling at huge, unregulated shows, I'll give your idea some thought.
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Old May 7th, 2003, 10:36 AM       
Yes, because we know guns are outlawed by the Consitution and we shouldn't posses them!
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Old May 7th, 2003, 12:00 PM       
I know you're being sarcastic, but you and I are on the same side here. The constitution 'allows' the right to bear arms, which is exactly why it pisses me off the government won't let me sell stinger missiles out of my garage. It's none of their damn business!
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Old May 7th, 2003, 12:07 PM       
Wow max, man you are so funny!
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Old May 7th, 2003, 12:17 PM       
Thanks! That's one of the things I get paid for! Seriously though, Vince, doesn't the constitution protect my right to own and sell Stinger missiles? I believe it does. If not, why not?

See, tht' the thing about comedy, it cn be an instructive tool. It's funny, AND it asks a dificult question you are in no way prepared to answer all at the same time. But don't let it get you down. No one has evr given me a decent answer as to why the constitution DOES protect my right to own a Glock and armor piercing ammunition, but does NOT protect my right to own a stinger missile, a tank, or a nuclear weapon.
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Old May 7th, 2003, 12:24 PM       
As per the Constitution, you have the right to possess it. But it can be argued why Joe Blo would need an nuke for self defense.

Of all the items in the constitution I wish the founding fathers could have been a bit clearer. But then again, who the hell would have thought then that we would create nukes.
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Old May 7th, 2003, 12:28 PM       
I think they would have had a hard time imagining a 450 magnum. But as long as you agree the constitution supports my right to own a nuke, we're square. No argument, no conditions, the constitution says it's my right because sadly it does not define what 'arms' are and it doesn't say 'Rifle but not cannon', so we agree the governments refual to allow me to own and sell stinger missiles is unconstitutional.
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Old May 7th, 2003, 12:31 PM       
Free the poppy growers!
no doubt..more so we should free the hemp growers!
man this is pretty phucked up, we can't have hemp but we can have imunity for gun manufacturers.. nice comparisons burb

yea punkgrrl, leaving it up to states is a bit wishful thinking but what if crossing the border meant running into a strongly different set of laws?
what if a state outlawed guns(in a democratic fashion)?
i think it would be interesting to see the results.

all we have to campare is places like japan where they are outlawed but there's too many other factors for a comparison of homicide rates.
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Old May 7th, 2003, 04:43 PM       
go look it up
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Old May 7th, 2003, 05:03 PM       
i don't know if i believe the info cited on that page, but,
i'd still rather have a kevlar suit than a gun

the only gun ownership reduction i'd support is by choice not law, so NRA members don't worry.. ill never campaign against the right to bear arms. hehe, and i'm a sharpshooter according to the military

there's no reason for me to believe that violence is a solution for anything.. ill rely on my communication skills, defence, and juditsu first.
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Old May 7th, 2003, 08:20 PM       
Did you by any chance notice the over 100 sources cited at the bottom of the page Mr.Unnessecarily-sceptical?
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Old May 7th, 2003, 09:09 PM       
it is irrelevant.. i'm not really argueing the stats but i will argue the idea that brings us to a situation where those stats can be presented/measured as such.

it is only in a society like america where the above stats make sense..

i'm a firm believer in the gun/violence perspective portrayed by 'bowling for columbine' if we compare the stats to canada they wont make sense. i will submit that the differences between the two are not included in the post you pasted.

many of my beliefs are based on experiences that cannot be found as links on the web.. sure gun ownership can lead to less crime but the foundations of that idea are based on a society that has no respect for life.. i'd like to help move society toward a respect for life .. not a fear of death.. so i'll be foreever argueing against this idea that 'armed is safer' on that principal.
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Old May 7th, 2003, 09:39 PM       
Hmm... I wonder what would happen if you were to acquire a nuke and then declare your property to be sovereign. :/
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Old May 7th, 2003, 09:44 PM       
"sure gun ownership can lead to less crime but the foundations of that idea are based on a society that has no respect for life"

Its statements like these that I just fail to comprehend. The foundations of the idea are based on a society that belives in personal freedom. Where ON EARTH do you come up with ideas like that? Please for the love of god someone explain where the idea that gun ownership has a direct correlation to violence are barbarism. And don't simply say it is obvious, or "I just know". Without facts or statements defended by logical deductions you have no argument.

And don't bring up Micheal Moore. It makes you look horribly desperate for someone who speaks for you, since a great deal of his information is completely false and his documentaries are intended for shock value, not actual persuasion. (according to him in defense of his lack of credible information and fabrication of data).

Edit: The nuke analogy is completely irrelevant. This is an issue of the individual's right to defend himself. I guess women should be helpless against rape offenders, I mean, golly, if they had guns they might accidently shoot the poor guys who will have guns regardless of the laws that are passed.

Edit again: For those who wish to debate the meaning/intent of the 2nd amendment. First I would ask what YOU personally believe it means. If "the people" is under question then prepare to lose a few other rights.

If "arms" is under question then you are intentionally attempting to interpret something out of context in order to serve your own agenda. You have absolutely no credibility from this point on in my opinion if you have to do that to supplement your arguments. Arms refers specifically to firearms and the courts have said so. In the Militia Act of 1792, the second Congress defined 'militia of the United States' to include almost every free adult male in the United States. These persons were obligated by law to possess a [military-style] firearm and a minimum supply of ammunition and military equipment.
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Old May 7th, 2003, 11:21 PM       
i'm saying that there has to be a set of conditions that lead to a situation where gun ownership leads to less crime.

it's those conditions that are elusive.. i have strong opinions and a view of a better society but don't know how to get there..
one answer for some is to protect gun rights.

the answer for others is to work on community or societal ways to resolve conflict so that violence is unnecessary. call it what you like.
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Old May 8th, 2003, 12:05 AM       
That'd be nice. But keep in mind this is the law, ergo the government we're talking about here. You cannot force communities/societies to change by means of, hey get this for ironic, violent coercion.

Is our generation really so arrogant and completely sure of our own abilities that we believe we have the ability to rid the world of violent confrontation without a means of self-defense? Human nature cannot be changed. There will always be evil in this world as long as mankind has the ability to recognize it as such.

My advice: Do your part to change your community by your own will if you so choose. Try and make one less person see violence as an answer to the world's problems. But also accept the fact that you can not possibly expect this to work even near a fraction of the time and it wouldn't be morally or logically acceptable to deny people the right to save their own life, or the lives of others if they are in danger.
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