The origins of the Great War of 2007

[Abcdxxxx]

Kulture, here are some things you might not be aware of ..

*there are portions of the Bible featured in the Koran, or at least referenced. There's even a talking baby jesus pledging to allah.

*a great deal of Arabs can read, and are educated, in greater numbers then ever before. in the case of palestinians, the real palestinians (which are very few) were often fluent in english, even in the refugee camps, prior to 1967. the percentage of palestinians with higher learning degrees would shock you. many travel overseas and take advantage of our study visas. there are great schools in turkey, and qatar for example. there are plenty of saudi and iraqi women with doctorates collecting dust. the terrorists themselves aren't lacking education.... it's the inclusion of hate propaganda into those educations which is the problem. The UN, US, and EU continue to fund, and disseminate these materials into arab schools. (edit: into Arab schools in which they have taken humanitarian rolls, that is. i'm not proposing the materials originated from the western world)

* the arabic culture you want to destroy isn't just a muslim culture.

*terrorism in it's current form is advanced and subversive in it's ability to manipulate the publics concept of the arab third world. We haven't effectively "kicked their asses inside out" according to the slow drip death toll which continues to mount daily.

****

Here's an article which discusses how the Koran instills Muslims with a quest for righteousness, while rejecting co-existance.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=14578

[Kulturkampf]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Kulture, here are some things you might not be aware of ..

*there are portions of the Bible featured in the Koran, or at least referenced. There's even a talking baby jesus pledging to allah.

Yes, and I am also aware that it is forbidden for a Muslim to say that Jesus ever died; the great Martyr Isa (PBUH) never died on the cross because He ascended straight into heaven.

*a great deal of Arabs can read, and are educated, in greater numbers then ever before. in the case of palestinians, the real palestinians (which are very few) were often fluent in english, even in the refugee camps, prior to 1967. the percentage of palestinians with higher learning degrees would shock you. many travel overseas and take advantage of our study visas. there are great schools in turkey, and qatar for example. there are plenty of saudi and iraqi women with doctorates collecting dust. the terrorists themselves aren't lacking education.... it's the inclusion of hate propaganda into those educations which is the problem. The UN, US, and EU continue to fund, and disseminate these materials into arab schools. (edit: into Arab schools in which they have taken humanitarian rolls, that is. i'm not proposing the materials originated from the western world)

I am concerned with the ones that are bringing their kids to Hamas rallies dressed up as mini suicide bombers.

* the arabic culture you want to destroy isn't just a muslim culture.

Yeah, it is what... 5% Christian? Throw in a few Baha'i and you got yourself a party.

*terrorism in it's current form is advanced and subversive in it's ability to manipulate the publics concept of the arab third world. We haven't effectively "kicked their asses inside out" according to the slow drip death toll which continues to mount daily.

And so the third world needs an education.

Here's an article which discusses how the Koran instills Muslims with a quest for righteousness, while rejecting co-existance.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=14578

Coexistence... is a goal.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by Kulturkampf

Yeah, it is what... 5% Christian? Throw in a few Baha'i and you got yourself a party.

Well, let me try this strategy.... the last remnants of all of those lost cultures which Islam conquered were resurped into Arab culture... it doesn't matter what percentile we're talking.

[ziggytrix]

resurped?

[kahljorn]

"But it is not the word of Christ. "

I could be wrong here but from what I recall the, "Kill all non-believers" thing aren't words of mohammed. Nice comparison, though.
Also, instead of being the word of Christ it's the word of God. Again, nice comparison.

"Forced liberalization and democratization of these nations, and if they drag their feet we give them incentives"

How the fuck do you propose that? Jackass. That's so democratic it makes me want to puke. You can't forcefully democratize a nation. This really isn't even worth discussing.

" kill their culture "

Do you know how hard it is to kill a culture? You can't just shoot them and they'll stop, then they start hiding it with secret angers underneath. That causes "Terrorists", terrorists cause more anger and confusion.
Plus what other people said about other nations being pissed off. I'm glad you're just an ignorant fuck. You CANNOT kill a culture, you can help it evolve.. you can do plenty of other things, but trying to destroy it will just cause it to proliferate into nearby cultures, bringing their anger and hatred with them.

"They attack us in the form of terrorism."

"They", huh? See, abc? This guy seems to think every muslim is a terrorist. Kind of embarassing to be a part of the same nation if you ask me.

Look at this jackass though, his solution to non-believers who kill non-believers is to go kill them if they won't believe him. So hypocritical it's kind of hilarious.

"I'm not going to respond to your crazy "feminization" talk either. "

A good example of feminization can be found by looking at the time before and after women entered the workplace. In the past, often families would be capable of surviving without having a woman working, now a days the woman is almost gauranteed to need to work just to be able to get by month to month. Because there are no mothers in the household this causes a general decline in morality accompanied by a steady increase in crime. Again, though, most of this is an excuse to continue treating people like shit-- most of the effects of feminization are exageratted just like any other economical malnourishing.
Another good example of the effects of feminization can be found by looking at mammalian anal complexes that cause "Alpha males". Alpha males are an evolutionary sound idea, the strongest or better gened one often wins the genetic battle thus allowing them to spread their seed to nearby females-- thus creating a more powerful generation. Genetic variation is always good, too, though. For the most part in the begining of civilization(or even prior to), though, without those genetic highpoints civilization probably wouldn't be what it is today-- if there would be a civilization at all.

*edit* Now i see this guys other post in the gay thread about modernization of their culture. Good job posting it where it's aplicable, dumbass. Maybe we should start discussing gay rights in this thread.

[Big Papa Goat]

Do you mean by Alpha males polygamous breeding studs? Because they don't neccesarily create a more powerful generation, they just create a new generation of males that are better at polygamy. That pretty much just means being more greedy, violent and possessive of women. Because the only genetic attributes a male needs to be a so called 'alpha male' would be those that facilitate polygamy. These genetic attributes aren't neccesarily better, or desirable at all.

What's this about off-topic posts?

[Kulturkampf]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

"But it is not the word of Christ. "

I could be wrong here but from what I recall the, "Kill all non-believers" thing aren't words of mohammed. Nice comparison, though.
Also, instead of being the word of Christ it's the word of God. Again, nice comparison.

You are wrong:
Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”
Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”

Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive.”

Bukhari:V4B52N270 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”

Ishaq:368 “Ka’b’s body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad’s order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet.”

It goes on.

"Forced liberalization and democratization of these nations, and if they drag their feet we give them incentives"

How the fuck do you propose that? Jackass. That's so democratic it makes me want to puke. You can't forcefully democratize a nation. This really isn't even worth discussing.

Yes, you can; you take power away from the people who have way too much and set up a constitutional republic which allows the minority to be guaranteed rights with majority opinion determining the rest.

" kill their culture "

Do you know how hard it is to kill a culture? You can't just shoot them and they'll stop, then they start hiding it with secret angers underneath. That causes "Terrorists", terrorists cause more anger and confusion.
Plus what other people said about other nations being pissed off. I'm glad you're just an ignorant fuck. You CANNOT kill a culture, you can help it evolve.. you can do plenty of other things, but trying to destroy it will just cause it to proliferate into nearby cultures, bringing their anger and hatred with them.

We can do anything through McDonalds & MTV; their children will shop at malls and be more concerned with vanity than the words of the Prophet, because that is the nature of man; one day, they will be just as vain as us.

Vanity will kill their culture, and it won't be a hard task to convince people to do what feels good and fulfilling to themselves instead of what a man 1,000 years dead says.

"They attack us in the form of terrorism."

"They", huh? See, abc? This guy seems to think every muslim is a terrorist. Kind of embarassing to be a part of the same nation if you ask me.

No, not every, but a significant a mount of Muslims support the terrorists.

[Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Kulturkampf

No, not every, but a significant a mount of Muslims support the terrorists.

True. It's about 25%, according to a recent UK poll. That's about four thousand British Muslims who support Islamic terrorism.

[kahljorn]

Um, just out of curiousity wasn't Ishaq a prophet himself, and isn't that book his 'word'? If I remember right Ishaq was Isaac. I don't really know though.

Also, where did you get those quotes? Because I can find just as many that say the exact opposite by looking up words like, "Dhimi". From what I understand Dhimi basically equates to muslims not hating people who "come from the same religion". like jews and christians. Wikipedia also listed these verses:

"God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just." (Qur'an, 60:8)

I'm also going to look up what you posted and see how true it is, because i know with you you just like to copy and paste "Interesting" things off of racist sites without even reading the context.

Also, wasn't muhammed around near the times of jihad? When christian colonies were attacking muslims for little to no reason, with a text that essentially also stated, "Kill all non-believers"? If I remember right that was delivered by a cardinal or pope. Basically, that all verses you are quoting that say, "kill non-believers" were born out of a war with christian forces? Seems like we kind of deserve it, and considering we had the same text around I wouldn't really call them heathens or anything.

[kahljorn]

Um, Okay. I'm not sure if this is a "Bad translation" or if yours is, but here's the first result I got from looking up "Quran 9:5"

"5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

I'm going to be editing this post with information on the others.

What's with these crazy numbers next to Bukhari? And is bukhari the guy who essentially went back and recompiled alot of quranic information? When I pasted in the bukhari thing all I got was a bunch of anti-muslim sites, seems strange. Give me the real number of the versus please because I have the Hadith of Bukhari open as we speak.
Never mind I figured it out:
I don't see how it's about killing non-believers, though, it seems to be more about killing one of their own ;/ Nice adherance to context, though. And it's not even verse 270, it's verse 271. I know you get your arguments from racist websites but try to make them a little more apt than about killing people in the middle of war ;/ Because that's what it seems to be about.

This is the volume four 386 one:
Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. When Al-Hurmuzan embraced Islam, 'Umar said to him. "I would like to consult you regarding these countries which I intend to invade." Al-Hurmuzan said, "Yes, the example of these countries and their inhabitants who are the enemies. of the Muslims, is like a bird with a head, two wings and two legs; If one of its wings got broken, it would get up over its two legs, with one wing and the head; and if the other wing got broken, it would get up with two legs and a head, but if its head got destroyed, then the two legs, two wings and the head would become useless. The head stands for Khosrau, and one wing stands for Caesar and the other wing stands for Faris. So, order the Muslims to go towards Khosrau." So, 'Umar sent us (to Khosrau) appointing An-Numan bin Muqrin as our commander. When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau came out with forty-thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, "Let one of you talk to me!" Al-Mughira replied, "Ask whatever you wish." The other asked, "Who are you?" Al-Mughira replied, "We are some people from the Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life: we used to suck the hides and the date stones from hunger; we used to wear clothes made up of fur of camels and hair of goats, and to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, the Lord of the Heavens and the Earths, Elevated is His Remembrance and Majestic is His Highness, sent to us from among ourselves a Prophet whose father and mother are known to us. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master." (Al-Mughira, then blamed An-Numan for delaying the attack and) An-Nu' man said to Al-Mughira, "If you had participated in a similar battle, in the company of Allah's Apostle he would not have blamed you for waiting, nor would he have disgraced you. But I accompanied Allah's Apostle in many battles and it was his custom that if he did not fight early by daytime, he would wait till the wind had started blowing and the time for the prayer was due (i.e. after midday)."

Asking them to pay Jizya is essentially asking them to pay the taxes that they demanded of all non-believers within their territory that allowed them to practice their religion freely without even adheering to Muslim principles. Sounds pretty generous, considering. Haven't the western nations done the same thing to "Pagans"???
Anyway, all this shit is about the Jihad when they were in the middle of war and shit, that the christian nations were participating in. I don't know about this, but did you ever think that maybe that caused some bad relations between them and our world? Maybe, just maybe, there's reasons for them acting like assholes to us?

[Abcdxxxx]

You're joking right? You can't possibly be this retarded.

The verse numbers are different because you're both using different translations. Neither of you can read any of the Korans native languages, so why go down the road of cutting and pasting the interpretations of others, pretending you're being "scholarly" ?

You couldn't even grasp the meaning of the word Hudna, which has no direct Western-English translation... how the hell are you going to debate the intergrity of entire quotes from the Koran!? Some translations are fairly sanitized and Western friendly....some aren't.

[kahljorn]

I don't understand the hudna? The way you explained it didn't make it too hard to understand. I was reading what you were saying. That's why I understood it, buddy. Don't you consider it a compliment when people understand the things you say?

Secondly, I did understand it. The thing that threw me off was the b52 part because the place I was at didn't have it listed by books but by volume, so I simply went by the N part which showed to be completely accurate. If you don't believe me, here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh4/bh4_274.htm

There it is(with the real numbers). It says the guy they're trying to kill is a Jew. My mistake.

Here's the other one, though, that initially confused me which he posted wrong..:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh4/bh4_273.htm

P.S. "We can do anything through McDonalds & MTV; their children will shop at malls and be more concerned with vanity than the words of the Prophet, because that is the nature of man; one day, they will be just as vain as us. "

I agree entirely with this, which is why (posted either in this thread or another) I thought the thing with sweeden being angry about them not allowing females to come, which they allowed, stood as a good example of how they can be influenced through cultural levels.
However, I think breeding people into vanity is stupid but it could certainly be a step into something better. Unity and perfection is considered vanities icon.

[Abcdxxxx]

There's something like a half dozen translations, with HUGE variations, Sherlock. So which translation did you pick, and why?

You're time would be much better spent taking a stone and hitting yourself over the head to assert your own masculinity. You seem a little "Femininized", you dumb bitch.

[kahljorn]

There's like 20 different translations of the bible, I think anybody delving into anything involving translation of anything(especially religious) into another language is going to find more than one translation and often more than one translators. I posted the translation I posted. According to that it's... "This is an extensive collection of Hadith as organized by Muhammad Ismâ'îl al-Bukhârî, one of the most respected of the Hadith redactors."

It says the translation might have been done by Muhammad Asad(according to the "manual"), but the exact translator isn't known since it's an internet file.

*edit* The reason I posted it was included in the original post. I believe I said something like, "It was the first thing that showed up when I ran a search for it on yahoo".

[Abcdxxxx]

So basically, you don't know shit, but you can cut and paste like a motherfucker. Spare us.

[kahljorn]

If i remember right he was copying and pasting verses, and I copy pasted some in return with a little bit of information on the side. Weren't we talking about reading comprehension? Man, why do you even argue with me? Are you reading what he's saying? You're the one struggling to keep up, and I've been trying to keep it somewhat civil with you.

I'm sure the war in which the Ji'had was born could have nothing to do with our current problems with eachother. None, especially considering originally they considered us all of the same God(since technically we are). You act like friction between us is based entirely on aggressive actions on their part. Please point out exactly what you think is bullshit made up crap so I can tell you how it's important.

"You're time"
That's right, I am the Lord and God of Time. Explains why I'm so intelligent, huh?

"would be much better spent taking a stone and hitting yourself over the head to assert your own masculinity. You seem a little "Femininized", you dumb bitch."

Assert my masculinity? You don't even know how funny that is. As for being a little "Feminized".. well, that just made it more funny.

Do you have books of all of the Koranic scriptures? Can you read them with any degree of fluency?

[Abcdxxxx]

I'm not the one playing scholar comparing verses....

As for trying to attribute Anti-semitism in the world tothe same source as your frusterations with me.... snore.

[kahljorn]

Anti-semitism? What are you talking about? And I don't know about Frustrations. Did you even read what I said? Do you understand anything?
You need to consider the complete picture, not just isolated times in history, namely the present and most recent history-- consider taking a history class or something. I hated history class and I seem to know more than you do. I guess that's why I'm the lord of time, huh? I can just see more into the history of events or something. I SEE WITH ME MAGICAL EYE.

---"I'm not the one playing scholar comparing verses.... "
---"There's something like a half dozen translations, with HUGE variations, Sherlock. So which translation did you pick, and why? "

Well there snurly pants Watson I snuff might nose at thee.

[Abcdxxxx]

Uh, okay big man. Puff out your chest and walk into another wall.

I'm the one giving history lessons here, while you're talking about how practical stonings might be. Give up. You're lucky I'm bored today.

[kahljorn]

Practical? Let me show you something you could learn through reading comprehension:

"most of the effects of feminization are exageratted just like any other economical malnourishing. "

Yes, I'm the one who said that, in the post about feminization. Feminization doesn't mean anything other than the effects further female integration have had on society and culture. There are plenty of good things, and some bad things. Argue you it if you will, but you'll just look like a jackass.
There were REAL palpable effects that it had, but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with women themselves. Also, in the past stuff like that was applicable. The times were different, you just don't understand that. Most of the argument was (quite obviously) just to bother you. I don't know why you think it's any thing other than that, but congratulations on picking up subtle details.
The whole feminization thing is actually something some people believe, and some even treat it completely as a negative thing.

P.S. Respond to some of the points/questions.

[Abcdxxxx]

You haven't made any points or asked any questions relevant to this thread, you putz. Go suck a dick so you can stop using phrases like "feminine intergration" you lunatic. Seriously, you're the conversational equivalent of belly button lint. Let's theorize about belly button lint. Say, have you ever watched paint drip before? I know, what is Art? Yeah, now we're really getting to understand the Middle East from crazy obtuse angles, maaan.

[Kulturkampf]

Originally Posted by kahljorn

Um, just out of curiousity wasn't Ishaq a prophet himself, and isn't that book his 'word'? If I remember right Ishaq was Isaac. I don't really know though.

Also, where did you get those quotes? Because I can find just as many that say the exact opposite by looking up words like, "Dhimi". From what I understand Dhimi basically equates to muslims not hating people who "come from the same religion". like jews and christians. Wikipedia also listed these verses:

"God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just." (Qur'an, 60:8)

I'm also going to look up what you posted and see how true it is, because i know with you you just like to copy and paste "Interesting" things off of racist sites without even reading the context.

Also, wasn't muhammed around near the times of jihad? When christian colonies were attacking muslims for little to no reason, with a text that essentially also stated, "Kill all non-believers"? If I remember right that was delivered by a cardinal or pope. Basically, that all verses you are quoting that say, "kill non-believers" were born out of a war with christian forces? Seems like we kind of deserve it, and considering we had the same text around I wouldn't really call them heathens or anything.

I have read the first 9 or so Surahs of the Koran; I do remember reading abouta battl where at the end of it a man refused to convert and Mohammed personally executed him. I do not have the Surah off and. I merely went to a webpage and got some of the more golden quotations, and focused on the ones where it says bits like "And the prophet ordered us to kill."

Mohammed personally waged war on Jews and tribalists in his Arabian penninsula; I am unaware of no interaction with Christians, let alone entirely unaware of Christians arbitrarily attacking Mohammed.

That is where you will have to do some research.

[kahljorn]

Crusades at wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade

"The Crusades were a series of several military campaigns—usually sanctioned by the Papacy—that took place during the 11th through 13th centuries. Originally, they were Roman Catholic endeavors to recapture Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the Muslims, but some were directed against other Europeans, such as the Fourth Crusade against Constantinople, the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars of southern France and the Northern Crusades."

I don't have much time for anything else, I'll be back to answer questions later.

P.S. What I'm saying is most of this war, with which both nations(or religions or whathaveyou) have harbored bad feelings for the other for a while, was mostly born out of conflict for the so-called "Holy land", and the extensions thereof. I don't see how you could argue that this is historically untrue. PPS Jews were mistreated by christians too. In fact, where do you think anti-semitism in europe came from? Very much a religious war.

[Abcdxxxx]

Uh... no.

Jewish persecution does not equal a religious war.
Anyway, the pass the buck argument is great, but where Christians innovated it (down to the creation of words like Zealot), Muslims carried it on for centuries.

You have no idea how cliche your responses are Kahl. Here I'll help you. Say something about the Canaanites now.

[kahljorn]

The caananites are responsible for my thoughts on the industry of africa.

"Muslims carried it on for centuries. "

No shit, that's why I said their culture is unevolved ;/

Christians didn't inovate it; this shit has been going on for centuries with nearly every religion.

I didn't say jewish persecution made it a religious war, what made it a religious war was both religions saying to kill the other religion and they would be rewarded with money and heaven. They offered indulgences.


PS
"let alone entirely unaware of Christians arbitrarily attacking Mohammed. "

I don't think they had too many interactions back then other than fringe, but I can't remember for sure. However, there was plenty of conflict over the "Holy land" that would explain some of the jewish problems...

Maybe I just want america to lose because i hate it? BEWARE MY DASTARDLY LIBERAL WAYS.