Advice to John Kerry

[Brandon]

The latest from Michael Moore:

Originally Posted by Moore

"The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win."

"I'm sorry, but the majority of Americans supported this war once it began and, sadly, that majority must now sacrifice their children until enough blood has been let that maybe -- just maybe -- God and the Iraqi people will forgive us in the end."

My advice to the Kerry campaign? Publicly condemn Michael Moore. And while you're at it, condemn Noam Chomsky and Susan Sontag. The American people will never be able to get behind the left if they see them as anti-American.

As long as the Republicans can play the populist angle, they'll always have one-up on the Democrats.

EDIT: Man, this thread really kicked up a shitstorm. Not one of my finer moments.

[Bobo Adobo]

Micheal Moore = Modern Day Jane Fonda :/ Eventhough the American way of life is the reason hes famous in the first place, he still shits on it every chance he gets.

When it comes to certain issues though, he can be right. I don't get how he acctually thinks people are going to support him when he comes off like a complete ass.

I think Nader wants his support.

[Royal Tenenbaum]

Ha, you're just made because he's right. And, why the hell is he being anti-American? I guess admiting you fucked up and that you made a mistake is pretty anti-American since your whole country is full of pig-headed fools.

[Stabby]

I don't think he's being anti-american (except in the way royal explains it)
I also don't think the "my country: right or wrong" slogan is very patriotic. Identifing what is wrong and working at informing the public so that significant change can occur to make the country better for everyone IS patriotic, and I believe that is what he, at least, tries to do. Loyalty to the country, not the corporation that currently runs it.

[Bobo Adobo]

But like I said, He can be right and he has a message. Hes just going about it all wrong.

Hes not going to make anybody get what he trying to say when he makes comments like that, hes just going to piss them off. Hes like the Liberal Ann Coulter.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by Stabby

I don't think he's being anti-american (except in the way royal explains it)
I also don't think the "my country: right or wrong" slogan is very patriotic. Identifing what is wrong and working at informing the public so that significant change can occur to make the country better for everyone IS patriotic, and I believe that is what he, at least, tries to do. Loyalty to the country, not the corporation that currently runs it.

Jesus Christ.

Telling the American public that they have to sacrifice their children for DARING to support the war is hardly patriotic; as is implying that we need to be forgiven by God. Look, the reconstruction of Iraq was hardly well planned, but to call the toppling of a brutal dictator a mortal sin is completely fucked-up.

[Drew Katsikas]

Originally Posted by Royal Tenenbaum

Ha, you're just made because he's right. And, why the hell is he being anti-American? I guess admiting you fucked up and that you made a mistake is pretty anti-American since your whole country is full of pig-headed fools.

Because it's anti-American to call those people who kill fellow countrymen Minutemen or the revolution. They are nothing less than disgusting people. If someone invaded America, I wouldn't hang their corpses from fucking bridges. Sickening.

Although it goes to show that being in Iraq is a lost cause and they don't want our help, I'd hardy call the rebels anything less than depraved murderers.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by Drew Katsikas

Because it's anti-American to call those people who kill fellow countrymen Minutemen or the revolution. They are nothing less than disgusting people. If someone invaded America, I wouldn't hang their corpses from fucking bridges. Sickening.

Although it goes to show that being in Iraq is a lost cause and they don't want our help, I'd hardy call the rebels anything less than depraved murderers.

Exactly. I'd say that if you're actively hoping for your own country's defeat, you're probably out of "patriot" territory. You're probably more in the zone of "traitor."

[mburbank]

You don't have any idea what you'd do or not do. I'm nt a supporter of corpse mulitation, but I'll tell you what. An iraqui who dies when a US bomb blows up his yje building he's in dies the exact same horrible death as folks in the trade towers did. The mother's and siblings, husbands and wives and children left behind suffer exactly the same way. I don't think where the bombs came from brings the dead back to life or eases the suffering of the survivors. And here's the thing; Iraqis didn't fly the damn planes into the twin towers. So it's possible they think their dead are innocent victims, just the way we think of our dead.

I'm sure lots of Iraqis still hate Sadaam. But I doubt anyone who's friends or children are dead because of us wants to thank us for their deaths.

You know how you feel about the people in Fallujah? That's exactly how they feel about us. That's how they're able to mess around with corpses. I'm glad your sure you'd never do anything like that. The thing is, you don't have to. Your part of a nation that can mutilate corpses from the air.

Who gives a crap how Moore phrases it? Does W. need to repudiate Anne Coulter? Screw that nonsense. Michael Moore is a commentator. This is still America and he, like Coulter can say whatever the hell he wants. Getting all wiggy about Sontag or Moore or Coulter or Limbaugh is a sideshow and confusing it for meaningful beyond the entertainment of having your views confirmed or getting righteously angry (both of which I sometimes enjoy) is a disservice to dead serviceman and dead Iraqis.

Are the insurgents the minutemen? To me, no. To a redcoat in the revolutionary war, don't be so sure. But what's the magic number before this is an uprising and not 'dead enders' and 'holdouts' and 'foreign fighters'.

And for those of you who think that this was ever in any way even remotely about toppling a dictator, I remind you, many of the same people in this administration worked side by side with Sadaam when he was a dictator. many of our current alies in the 'war on terror' are dictators. The world is fucking chock a block with dictators. If you think America should be in the business of toppling dictators because of who and what they are you should seriosuly look at any warm fuzzy feelings you have for W. and crew because they are just fine with dictators.

Moore? Coulter? Sontag? Limbaugh? Spleen venters with a pulpit some of whom I generally like and some of whom I generally loathe.

W? A man who controls the army of the worlds only superpower. I'm not wasting my time worrying about what paid pundits lather about. hat's for writting comedy about.

[mburbank]

'traitor' Brandon? First of all, I don't think he's advocating our defeat. As occupiers we could go home, but we can't be defeated. Secondly, I'm pretty sure the excercise of free speech, no matter how odius you might find it isn't 'traitorus'. Now, if he goes over to Iraq and joins the resistance, that's different. But in America he can say whatever he wants and he's still American.

Do you find what he said more or less repulsive than Rumsfled calling our troops 'fungible', a term I've never heard used for living, breathing human beings before.

Moore? Not in any way involved in the death of anyone. Rumsfeld? Hip deep in decisions directly connected to American and Iraqi dead.

Pull yourself together. Worry about real shit that means something. If you don't like Kerry and think Bush would be a better president, I think you're wrong, but at least it matters. This is a bullshit side alley that someone somewhere hopes people like you will go down. Where did you hear this Moore quote? On a Moore site? Or was it reported by some other site with an agenda of their own, something along the lines of filling the heads of swing voters with inconsequential crapola that has little to do with anything at all?

[Drew Katsikas]

Max, I KNOW I wouldn't kill someone, never mind mutilate a non-soldier occupant.

Secondly, ridiculous as the war is, we're not bin laden. Most of us don't hate every Iraqi and wish to see them dead. The motivation is different, even though it's a poor one.

Lastly, people in Iraq hate us. I wouls hate them if they invaded my cxountry. However, I would not kill them and mutilate their bodies, and the language Moore used celebrated these people. Minutemen cleary carries a heroic connotation.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by ArtificialBrandon

Telling the American public that they have to sacrifice their children for DARING to support the war is hardly patriotic;

Senator Hagel, a Republican, and Rep. Rangel, a Democrat, have both been arguing that we bring back the draft. They have both been arguing that we need to make the war deaths more egalitarian, less lower-middle class kids. Moore is hardly being an extremist, or unpatriotic, in saying this.

And why the fuck should John Kerry condemn Michael Moore? Should George W. Bush go out of his way to condemn the nuy jobs on the Right like Pat Robertson who support him? No, he doesn't, b/c they represent a group of voters that he needs to maintain. It's not like John Kerry is going out of his way for Moore, to condemn Moore would only lose voters for Kerry, not draw them in.

And as for Moore being unamerican, that's just nonsense. The guy has dedicated his life to advocating for American jobs. Call him protectionist, call him regressive, but unamerican he certainly is not.

[Royal Tenenbaum]

It's so easy to say, "I know I wouldn't do that if it happened." Fuck that, if you had a bunch of Iraq soldiers boming your city and pushing you around you'd learn to hate pretty fast. I'm not saying I would know exactly what I would do if some type of foreign entity tried to take control of my conuntry, but I can guarantee I wouldn't be just sitting around like a pacifist waiting to see what goes down. And you have to remember, a lot of these pissed off people have had relatives killed because of this. How about I kill your parents, and then you give me a nice, big hug? Instead, you'd probably want to beat me to death and hang me from a bridge. Yeah, it really sucks that the American soldiers are being held responsible for the actions of politicans, and that they are dying because of it, but, like Moore said, this is a war that was supported. If America doesn't want to see more dead Americans, Bush will lose, but, from the looks of it, people don't care, and getting a slight tax-break of a hundred bucks or whatever is worth a lot more than a couple hundred dead soldiers.

[mburbank]

"The motivation is different, even though it's a poor one. "

While I agree with you about that, folks standing around a bombed out building looking at body parts don't usually take a moment to say "You know, before we give in to rage, I think we should examine the motivation of the guys who dropped that bomb."

Dead is dead. Suffering is suffering. I hate Osama Bin Laden for bringing that to America. I hate anyone who kills folks and then plays with the bodies. But I have no connection to those things. A large chunk of the money I earn is paying for this war. I am a participant is this suffering. In Afghanistan I thought that an unavoidable tragedy, but it still made me feel sick. In Iraq? My money is killing people and putting Americans in front of bullets because W. thinks God wants him to do it.

[Brandon]

First of all, the Moore quote came from his own website.

While I agree with you about that, folks standing around a bombed out building looking at body parts don't usually take a moment to say "You know, before we give in to rage, I think we should examine the motivation of the guys who dropped that bomb."

No, but we're expected to do so, right Max?

And for those of you who think that this was ever in any way even remotely about toppling a dictator, I remind you, many of the same people in this administration worked side by side with Sadaam when he was a dictator. many of our current alies in the 'war on terror' are dictators. The world is fucking chock a block with dictators. If you think America should be in the business of toppling dictators because of who and what they are you should seriosuly look at any warm fuzzy feelings you have for W. and crew because they are just fine with dictators.

Nevertheless, a dictator was toppled.

'traitor' Brandon? First of all, I don't think he's advocating our defeat.

Praising the minutemen and proclaiming their imminent victory seems like a strong desire for an American defeat to me.

And as for Moore being unamerican, that's just nonsense. The guy has dedicated his life to advocating for American jobs. Call him protectionist, call him regressive, but unamerican he certainly is not.

He's an "advocate" for the working class. The fact that they're American is purely incidental for Moore.

As far as the rest of the tirades in this thread go, I'm not going to address emotional appeals. You're only using them to bully me into agreeing with you by painting me as a heartless prick. I don't like war; war is hideous, but it's a necessary evil at times. The world is a better place without Saddam Hussein in control, and leaving him alone would have caused much more suffering in the long run than overthrowing him.

You people only care about suffering when it can be traced back to the United States.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by ArtificialBrandon

He's an "advocate" for the working class. The fact that they're American is purely incidental for Moore.

This is the dumbest thing you've ever said. The guy challenged Phil Knight to a race, so long as Knight would agree to build a factory in Flint, MI, the town he grew up in and has watched crumble. Painting him as a Marxist isn't only stupid, it can't be substantiated. He spends most of his time arguing for American jobs. I'm certain he wouldn't mind seeing a factory close in Mexico and then re-open in Flint.

As far as the rest of the tirades in this thread go, I'm not going to address emotional appeals.

Like respected Sen. Chuck Hagel arguing to make the reinstate the draft today? Like Hagel arguing to make a broader degree of classes carry the burden and hardships in Iraq? Uh, like Hagel making the same damn argument as "unamerican" Michael Moore? The loss of American life is a plain reality here, and it will be the price we pay if we continue to listen to morons like Richard Perle, who continue to argue for no international involvement, no U.N. What do you think he's thus saying, pull out of Iraq? Hell no, he's saying send our "fungible" men and women over there to die. Where's your fucking outrage over that unamerican attitude???

You people only care about suffering when it can be traced back to the United States.

And you are a fucking idiot. Period.

[Brandon]

Like respected Sen. Chuck Hagel arguing to make the reinstate the draft today? Like Hagel arguing to make a broader degree of classes carry the burden and hardships in Iraq? Uh, like Hagel making the same damn argument as "unamerican" Michael Moore? The loss of American life is a plain reality here, and it will be the price we pay if we continue to listen to morons like Richard Perle, who continue to argue for no international involvement, no U.N. What do you think he's thus saying, pull out of Iraq? Hell no, he's saying send our "fungible" men and women over there to die. Where's your fucking outrage over that unamerican attitude???

When did I say I agreed with Hagel, Kevin? Never. I never praised Rumsfeld's choice of words, either. But this thread isn't about Rumsfeld or Hagel, it's about Michael Moore. Stick to the fucking subject you childish piece of shit.

As for international involvement, you need look no further than Kosovo if you want to see how marvelous the U.N. is at handling caustic situations. THAT is a fucking quagmire, Kevin.

And you are a fucking idiot. Period.

If the majority of this board is considered "intelligent," I'd rather be stupid.

[mburbank]

"First of all, the Moore quote came from his own website."

So you were just perusing his website, right? You didn't read about the quote and then follow a link there?

"No, but we're expected to do so, right Max? "

Do you have trouble reading what I write? The part about suffering being suffering, the part about them hating us exactly the way we hate them? The part where I say the motivation makes no differnce to the dead and the suffering? Expected has nothing to do with it. Neither side gives a flying fuck about motivation, and why should they? Purety of motivtion brings no one back from the dead.

"Nevertheless, a dictator was toppled. "
That kind of makes you an 'ends justify the means' guy, Brandon. It also makes you pretty lucky. If you vote for W I sure hope the next war he starts is as serendipitous for you as this one. And as far as going to war over false pretenses goes, well, there may be serious long term repercussions and we may end up crusade, but hell, we toppled a tyrant. Even if that had nothing to do with it.

"I'm not going to adress emotional appeals"
Why? I adressed yours. Traitor. My God. I'm not trying to bully you into any speciffic set of beliefs. I am trying to get you to examine your beliefs.

"You people only care about suffering when it can be traced back to the United States."
That's a load of horseshit. I'll admit, I care somewhat more about suffering my tax dollars fund. You don't seem to care much about suffering we inflict as long as it balances out in the long run. We toppled a dictator! I'm so sorry we killed your kids, but hell, Sadaam probably would have done it if we hadn't, so it's no biggy. And what about the buckets of suffering we're fine with? Exactly how many people do we have to rack up in collateral damage (and remember, we're not counting) before you're no longer sure? You should set yourself a number. I care enough about suffering that I don't really spend a lot of time thinking about what their nationality is or the motivations of those who caused them to suffer. To me, a guy that burns to death in a building is a guy that burns to death in a building. You make a concious choice to missunderstand what I'm saying. Some wars may be avoidable, but this one was. It kills people in our uniforms and there's and it also kills their citizens, something they haven't done to us. Oh, and it leaves us more vulnerable then evernto actual terrorists, since our armed forces and intelligence are a little busy with this uneccesary war.

[Brandon]

So you were just perusing his website, right? You didn't read about the quote and then follow a link there?

What the hell does that have to do with anything, Max?

Do you have trouble reading what I write? The part about suffering being suffering, the part about them hating us exactly the way we hate them? The part where I say the motivation makes no differnce to the dead and the suffering? Expected has nothing to do with it. Neither side gives a flying fuck about motivation, and why should they? Purety of motivtion brings no one back from the dead.

We hate who, Max? The common Iraqi? The insurgents?

That kind of makes you an 'ends justify the means' guy, Brandon. It also makes you pretty lucky. If you vote for W I sure hope the next war he starts is as serendipitous for you as this one. And as far as going to war over false pretenses goes, well, there may be serious long term repercussions and we may end up crusade, but hell, we toppled a tyrant. Even if that had nothing to do with it.

No, it just means that I'm not willing to call the war a total moral outrage because the administration acted unethically in lying about the reasons. I'm not purely "ends justify the means" because, like most people, I see moral issues as too complicated to be decided by one standard of ethics.

Why? I adressed yours. Traitor. My God. I'm not trying to bully you into any speciffic set of beliefs. I am trying to get you to examine your beliefs.

When did I make emotional appeals? Calling Michael Moore a traitor is not an emotional appeal.

That's a load of horseshit. I'll admit, I care somewhat more about suffering my tax dollars fund. You don't seem to care much about suffering we inflict as long as it balances out in the long run. We toppled a dictator! I'm so sorry we killed your kids, but hell, Sadaam probably would have done it if we hadn't, so it's no biggy. And what about the buckets of suffering we're fine with? Exactly how many people do we have to rack up in collateral damage (and remember, we're not counting) before you're no longer sure?

When did I say I didn't care about suffering? Or did you just assume that supporting a war means not giving a shit about collateral damage? But like I said before: leaving Saddam in power would have caused more suffering and death in the long run.

[davinxtk]

He's not talking about the riots in Fallujah, you stupid fucks. He's talking about the insurgents. THE WORD INSURGENT IS IN THE QUOTE. What the fuck are you guys thinking?

America-hating swine Michael Moore
...
American people will never be able to get behind the left if they see them as anti-American.

The only people who see him as anti-american are people who pay way too much attention to right-wing propaganda. If you actually read anything that he's written or paid any attention to him instead of what Limbaugh, etc say about him, you'd realize that he's probably one of the most patriotic individuals in the country.

It's not anti-American to dislike our administration, or voice your opinion about it. It doesn't make you unsupportive of the troops to protest against the war. This is all spelled out in the very first article of our own Bill of Rights. The right wing would like you to believe that the prominent left voices are anti-American.
It's just, for the most part, not so.

[Brandon]

The only people who see him as anti-american are people who pay way too much attention to right-wing propaganda. If you actually read anything that he's written or paid any attention to him instead of what Limbaugh, etc say about him, you'd realize that he's probably one of the most patriotic individuals in the country.

Davin, how many other ways can you construe the statement he made? I mean, read between the lines.

It's not anti-American to dislike our administration, or voice your opinion about it. It doesn't make you unsupportive of the troops to protest against the war. This is all spelled out in the very first article of our own Bill of Rights.

Agreed. The statement he made isn't just a mere critique of policy, though.

[davinxtk]

Originally Posted by ArtificialBrandon

Davin, how many other ways can you construe the statement he made? I mean, read between the lines.

No, don't read between the lines. There's no subtext there. He's talking about a war and nothing else. He's not anti-American. I agree with him, and I'm not anti-American. The people we're fighting now aren't Baathist remnants. They're private militia groups who oppose us the same way they opposed the Baath party.

Besides, I'm talking about things outside of that quote, too. You say "America-hating swine" like he's got a track record or something.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by davinxtk

No, don't read between the lines. There's no subtext there. He's talking about a war and nothing else. He's not anti-American. I agree with him, and I'm not anti-American. The people we're fighting now aren't Baathist remnants. They're private militia groups who oppose us the same way they opposed the Baath party.

OF COURSE THERE'S SUBTEXT! He's glorifying them!

[davinxtk]

That's barely subtext, it's almost spelled out.
And who's to say they don't deserve it?
They're fighting for the freedom of their country. They want us (and our influence) on the other side of their borders.
Maybe we should get the fucking hint already.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by davinxtk

That's barely subtext, it's almost spelled out.
And who's to say they don't deserve it?
They're fighting for the freedom of their country. They want us (and our influence) on the other side of their borders.
Maybe we should get the fucking hint already.

God, davin, you act like we're ruling them like Stalin! Would you cut our officials some slack already?