Soldiers in Iraq <--rarely printed in US

[ranxer]

Oh go wave yer flag and say 'Heil to the Thief' :/
most of what i see printed in the US is all hunky dory stuff
or tales of 'heroes' in iraq, they never seem to print anything
resembling the truth of what's going on over there..
course, you non-Americans here must get a little more than us
about it.
I hope some of the awakened military will shed thier republican leanings after this experience.

These GIs, from Bravo Company of the 3/15th US Infantry Division, are caught in an impossible situation.

yea and Millions of people predicted that including some in the bush administration! GW should be impeached for this!
the 'democracy in Iraq' idea is another impossible started with american flags. its been laughable but they have such big guns people are affraid to scoff and the bush admin.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/5402104

'I just pulled the trigger'
By Bob Graham, Evening Standard, in Baghdad
19 June 2003
At first glance they appear to be the archetypal Band Of Brothers of Hollywood myth, brave and honest men united in common purpose.

But a closer look at these American GIs, sweltering in the heat of an unwelcoming Iraq, reveals the glazed eyes and limp expressions of those who have witnessed a war they do not understand and have begun to resent. By their own admission these American soldiers have killed civilians without hesitation, shot wounded fighters and left others to die in agony.

What they told me, in a series of extraordinary interviews, will make uncomfortable reading for US and British politicians and senior military staff desperate to prevent the liberation of Iraq turning into a quagmire of Vietnam proportions, where the behaviour of troops feeds the hatred of an occupied people.

Specialist Anthony Castillo: "If civilians were there, they were considered the enemy"

Sergeant First Class John Meadows revealed the mindset that has led to hundreds of innocent Iraqi civilians being killed alongside fighters deliberately dressed in civilian clothes. "You can't distinguish between who's trying to kill you and who's not," he said. "Like, the only way to get through s*** like that was to concentrate on getting through it by killing as many people as you can, people you know are trying to kill you. Killing them first and getting home."

These GIs, from Bravo Company of the 3/15th US Infantry Division, are caught in an impossible situation. More than 40 of their number have been killed by hostile forces since 1 May - when President Bush declared major military operations were over - and the number of hit-and-run attacks is on the increase. They face a resentful civilian population and, hiding among it, a number of guerrilla fighters still loyal to the old regime. A lone Iraqi sniper nicknamed The Hunter is believed to have claimed his sixth American victim this week in a suburb of Baghdad.

The man, said to be a former member of the Republican Guard Special Forces, has developed a cult status among some Iraqis. One Baghdad resident, Assad al Amari, said: "He is fighting for Iraq on his own. There will be many more Americans killed because they cannot stop The Hunter. He will be given the protection of people who will let him use their homes for his shooting."

In this hostile atmosphere the men of Bravo Company are asked to maintain order, yet at the same time win hearts and minds. It is not a dilemma they feel able to resolve. They spoke to me - dressed in uniforms they have worn for the past six weeks - at their base in Fallujah. Here US troops killed 18 demonstrators at a pro-Saddam rally soon after the war and now face local fighters bent on revenge.

Their attitude to these dangers is summed up by Specialist (Corporal) Michael Richardson, 22. "There was no dilemma when it came to shooting people who were not in uniform, I just pulled the trigger. It was up close and personal the whole time, there wasn't a big distance. If they were there, they were enemy, whether in uniform or not. Some were, some weren't."

Specialist Anthony Castillo added: "When there were civilians there we did the mission that had to be done. When they were there, they were at the wrong spot, so they were considered enemy." In one major battle - at the southern end of Baghdad at the intersection of the main highways - the soldiers estimate about 70 per cent of the enemy's 400-or-so fighters were dressed as civilians.

Sgt Meadows explained: "The fight lasted for about eight hours and they just kept on coming all day from everywhere, from all sides. They were all in plain clothes.

"We had dropped fliers a couple of days prior saying to people to get out of the area if they didn't want to fight, so basically anyone who was there was a combatant. If they were dumb enough to stand in front of tanks or drive a car

towards a tank, then they were there to fight. On that day it took away the dilemma of who to fire at, anyone who was there was a combatant."

Cpl Richardson added: "That day nothing went with the training. There were females fighting; there were some that, when they saw you f****** coming, they'd just drop their s*** and try to give up; and some guys were shot and they'd play dead, and when you'd go by they'd reach for their weapons. That day it was just f****** everything. When we face women or injured that try to grab their weapons, we just finish them off. You've gotta, no choice."

Such is their level of hatred they preferred to kill rather than merely injure. Sgt Meadows, 34, said: "The worst thing is to shoot one of them, then go help him." Sergeant Adrian Pedro Quinones, 26, chipped in: "In that situation you're angry, you're raging. They'd just been shooting at my men - they were putting my guys in a casket and eight feet under, that's what they were trying to do.

"And now, they're laying there and I have to help them, I have a responsibility to ensure my men help them." Cpl Richardson said: "S***, I didn't help any of them. I wouldn't help the f******. There were some you let die. And there were some you double-tapped."

He held out his hand as if firing a gun and clucked his tongue twice. He said: "Once you'd reached the objective, and once you'd shot them and you're moving through, anything there, you shoot again. You didn't want any prisoners of war. You hate them so bad while you're fighting, and you're so terrified, you can't really convey the feeling, but you don't want them to live."

These soldiers have faced fighters from other Arab countries. "It wasn't even Iraqis that we was killing, it was Syrians," said Sgt Meadows. "We spoke to some of the people and Saddam made a call for his Arab brothers for a holy war against us, and they said they came here to fight us. Whadda we ever do to them?"

Cpl Richardson intervened: "S***, that didn't really matter who they were. They wanted to fight us so they were the enemy. We had to take over Baghdad, period, it didn't matter who was in there."

The GIs spoke of shooting civilians at roadblocks. Sgt Meadows said: "When they used white flags we were told to stop them at 400 metres out and then strip them down naked then bring them through. Most obeyed the order. We knew about others who had problems with [Iraqis] carrying white flags and then opening up on our guys. We knew about every trick they were trying to do. Then they'd use cars to try and drive at us. They were men, women and children. That day we shot up a lot of cars.

"We'd shoot warning shots at them and they'd keep coming, so we'd kill them. We'd fire a warning shot over the top of them or on the road. When people criticise us killing civilians they don't know that a lot of these civilians were combatants, they really were . And they still are."

The men have been traumatised by their experiences. Cpl Richardson-said: "At night time you think about all the people you killed. It just never gets off your head, none of this stuff does. There's no chance to forget it, we're still here, we've been here so long. Most people leave after combat but we haven't."

Sgt Meadows said men under his command had been seeking help for severe depression: "They've already seen psychiatrists and the chain of command has got letters back saying 'these men need to be taken out of this situation'. But nothing's happened." Cpl Richardson added: "Some soldiers don't even f****** sleep at night. They sit up all f****** night long doing s*** to keep themselves busy - to keep their minds off this f****** stuff. It's the only way they can handle it. It's not so far from being crazy but it's their way of coping. There's one guy trying to build a little pool out the back, pointless stuff but it keeps him busy."

Sgt Meadows said: "For me, it's like snap-shot photos. Like pictures of maggots on tongues, babies with their heads on the ground, men with their heads halfway off and their eyes wide open and mouths wide open. I see it every day, every single day. The smells and the torsos burning, the entire route up to Baghdad, from 20 March to 7 April, nothing but burned bodies."

Specialist Bryan Barnhart, 21, joined in: "I also got the images like snapshots in my head. There are bodies that we saw when we went back to secure a place we'd taken. The bodies were still there and they'd been baking in the sun. Their bodies were bloated three times the size."

Sgt Quinones explained: "There are psychiatrists who are trying to sort out their problems but they say it's because of long combat environment. They know we need to be taken away from that environment." But the group's tour of duty has been extended and the men have been forced to remain as peacekeepers. Cpl Richardson said: "Now we're in this peacekeeping, we're always firing off a warning shot at people that don't wanna listen to you. You make up the rules as you go along.

"Like, in Fallujah we get rocks thrown at us by kids. You wanna turn round and shoot one of the little f*****s but you know you can't do that. Their parents know if they came out and threw rocks we'd shoot them. So that's why they send the kids out." Sgt Meadows said: "Can you imagine being a soldier and being told 'you're fighting a war, then when you finish you can go home'.

"You go and fight that war, and you win decisively, but now you have to stay and stabilise the situation. We are having to go from a full warfighting mindset to a peacekeeping mindset overnight. Right after shooting at people who were trying to kill you, you now have to help them."

The anger towards their own senior officers is obvious. Cpl Richardson said: "We weren't trained for this stuff now. It makes you resentful they're holding us on here. It pisses everyone off, we were told once the war was over we'd leave when our replacements get here. Well, our replacements got here and we're still here."

Specialist Castillo said: "We're more angry at the generals who are making these decisions and who never hit the ground, and who don't get shot at or have to look at the bloody bodies and the burnt-out bodies, and the dead babies and all that kinda stuff." Sgt Quinones added: "Most of these soldiers are in their early twenties and late teens. They've seen, in less than a month, more than any man should see in a whole lifetime. It's time for us to go home."

On whether the war was one worth fighting, Sgt Meadows said: "I don't care about Iraq one way or the other. I couldn't care less. [Saddam] could still be in power and, to me, it wasn't worth leaving my family for; for getting shot at and almost dying two or three times, there's nothing worth that to me." Even though no Iraqis were involved, and there is no proof Saddam was behind it, the attack on the World Trade Center provides Cpl Richardson and many others with the justification for invading Iraq.

"There's a picture of the World Trade Center hanging up by my bed and I keep one in my Kevlar [flak jacket]. Every time I feel sorry for these people I look at that. I think, 'They hit us at home and, now, it's our turn.' I don't want to say payback but, you know, it's pretty much payback."

edit: alright sometimes printed in the US but Not Enough!

[ranxer]

[GAsux]

they never seem to print anything
resembling the truth of what's going on over there..

Thanks for being the bearer of truth of justice. I'm glad a well trained, experienced eye like yours is able to weed out what's fact from fiction about "what's going on over there".

Is this article representative of how it was when you were there?

[ranxer]

well thats how i feel about it. i'm a skeptic, i don't believe much of waht is printed and my local papers probly aren't like yours, maybe i am speaking too general, this is just a tidbit of 'news' .. sorry i dint mention that.

i just don't see much info about iraq on the ground(from our soldiers) that isnt favorable to this administration..

[GAsux]

Fair enough. But that's not how you sold it in your first post. It makes ME a little skeptical when you claim YOUR sources are the truth, while everything else is not.

I agree, the maintstream press hasn't reported much on the ground. But that doesn't automatically mean what they are reporting is not true. I'm pretty sure the opinions expressed by the guys mentioned in the article exist out there. But what is it? 1 in 4 soldiers? 1 in 50 soldiers? What does it take to make THEIR opinion the accurate reflection versus the what the mainstreams are reporting?

[ranxer]

it takes lots more reporting, a lot less restrictions on reporting.
and the press get attacked/badgered from all sides of the conflict. i can't imagine half of what its like to get the word out of so many places. its easier just to make it up 8/

selling the news(advertisments) is another problem ...seems to me that if it weren't for people that are dedicated to being open minded to all sides despite the corruption we wouldnt get anything but lies.

[ranxer]

What do they call that style of attack we(imperialists) been using for hundreds of years.. move in to foriegn terroritory push people around and when they push back we kill em all and say it was in defence.. plant our flag and setup for the next move?
we learned some of the tactics from the british..

oh and what'dya think of these people defending thier town?

Shia anger at British search for arms
By Charles Clover in Majar, Iraq
Published: June 25 2003 19:03 | Last Updated: June 25 2003 19:03

The main street in the town of Majar, Iraq, is pocked with bullet holes and scorchmarks where a running gun battle between town residents and British forces claimed the lives of six British soldiers and five Iraqis on Tuesday.

In the courtyard of the police station, around the corner from the main street, the smell of cordite still filled the air on Wednesday and shell casings could still be found on the ground. Five of the six British soldiers made their last stand there, before being wiped out, residents say.

In all, it was the bloodiest day for coalition troops since the end of the military campaign in late April. In a separate incident on Tuesday, eight soldiers were injured, three seriously, when a British patrol south of Majar was ambushed and a helicopter dispatched to support them came under fire.

On Wednesday British forces had withdrawn from the town, having pounded it on Tuesday with helicopter gunships, according to residents. The violence there served notice that an aggressive weapons confiscation campaign, begun throughout Iraq on June 15, could have serious consequences in the conservative rural Shi'a areas like Majar.

"They forgot we are Shi'a Muslims," said Haji Sami Jumi, a local tribal sheikh. "You cannot come into my house and see my wife. It is forbidden and they know this perfectly well. We had great relations with the British, we always treated them with respect, but they must respect our rights as well."

The problem in Majar started on Sunday, when a dawn raid by British troops with dogs aimed at confiscating weapons angered residents.

"They kicked down our doors," said a man sitting at the police station named Abu Zahra on Wednesday. "When our dogs barked, they shot our dogs."

The next day, the town held a demonstration against the continued searches.

The majlis - town council - of Majar told the British commander in the town that they needed a week to hand over heavy weapons. Mr Zahra has a photocopy of the written warning they gave, insisting no further intrusive searches should take place. British army spokesmen declined to confirm this on Wednesday.

Then, on Tuesday, at around 7am, four British army Landrovers drove into the town.

Abdul Zahir, a grease-covered mechanic, witnessed the scene from his garage on the street. Two of the cars drove about a kilometre down the main market street, then according to Mr Zahir, roughly a dozen soldiers dismounted, and began walking back in patrol formation.

Town residents said they were angry at what they saw as a violation of an agreement forbidding troops from entering the town. Children started pelting the soldiers with stones and rotten vegetables. The soldiers started shooting in the air, and soldier struck a child with his rifle butt.

A circle of stones and a white chalk mark in the shape of a corpse identifies the spot where the first town resident was shot. British forces say the attack on them was unprovoked, residents say the the British soldiers shot first, hitting Tayseer Abdul Wahed, a pregnant woman, and an ambulance driver who had come to attend to the injured boy.

"The British soldiers panicked. They began to aim their weapons at the people," said Mr Jumi. "We were defending ourselves after they shot four of our people."

According to residents, the family of Mr Wahed, a tribe named the Beni Malek, began to shoot at the soldiers at this point with Kalashnikov assault rifles.

Mr Zahir saw a soldier tell the drivers of the two vehicles to get out, don gear and begin fighting. He said the soldiers split into groups, five running up the street next to the cultural centre, laying prone and sweeping the street with rifle fire.

Another group of five made a right turn to the police station, defended by a high wall and another group went in the direction of the hospital.

"The soldiers at the police station were surrounded," said Abu Zahir. "They fought for an hour, but in the end they were all killed, God rest them."

Another soldier was killed near the cultural centre, residents said.

In all 16 town residents were injured and 5 killed.

"The soldiers fought very well," said Mr Zahir. "They were brave men, but we are born with guns in our hands, and no one can ever take them away from us. Saddam couldn't and no one can."

[Isaac]

seems to me that they have a better respect for freedom then the soilders "tring" to liberate them

[GAsux]

Ranxer,
You still aren't really helping me understand. The heart of the matter is, what is the truth? Why is the "truth" from MSNBC reporters automatically not true, but the "truth" from your beloved sources automatically true?

Because they aren't "corporate" media outlets? Is it possible that your "truth" sources are just as biased and conflicted as the mainstreams?

News doesn't become truth by default because it came from an "alternative" source.

[O71394658]

News doesn't become truth by default because it came from an "alternative" source.

Exactly. No media source can be truly objective. It just won't happen. Just because one source is "underground" or such doesn't make it any more believable than convential media outlets. Many would even go as far as trusting conventional outlets more. As they are projected nationally, their words often come under close scrutiny. It can affect their reputations if they present lies or exaggerations...whereas within "alternate" media sources, there is often no way to do this. For all we know, it could be made up.

[ranxer]

I don't fully trust any sources.. i just want to get both sides at all times..

generally the 'other' side on TV or in the major news and magazines there is two corporate or establishment people discussing 'both sides' and that is certainly skewed.

and generally if you read a non 'allied' press you will get more about what our adminstration doesnt want you to hear. I take everything as rumor until its verified by other sources, and i do have my own suspicians that i'm looking for verification on. i gotta be careful there but i have believed that corporations have more interest in profits than people or a sustainable future for a long time.. belief needs verification in order for me to hold on to it..

then there are sources that are human rights based and that i communicate with on a personal level.. i don't think that many people (including some priests and nuns) some that have given up corporate jobs and college to dig through information or travel to these countries like iraq and afghanistan with no profit in mind come back and lie to us directly.. they often have a 'this is what i saw' .. 'this is what they said'.. 'this is who i was talking to' and 'this is what i believe' set of definitions with thier presentations.

so it really takes 'work' to get near the 'truth'

[GAsux]

If that's how you honestly feel than I respect that. It doesn't always seem so. It seems like a lot of times you post "alternative" sources and imply that they are somehow more truthful simply because they are "alternative" and I think that's completely unfair.

Just as you could argue that the corporate incfluenced mainstream media is partial to the administration, you could argue that such alternative media sources are intent on slandering the administration. I don't suppose it would go over to well if a reputable alternative liberal press put out articles that evenr emotely agreed with the administrations stance, even if there were some agreement.

What I'm getting at is there is no more truth or fairness in the article you posted than the "hero" articles CNN distributes. I'm sure there is a fair amount of embellishment going on in both camps.

[Isaac]

you have to ignore all implication and oppion, otherwise you get lies (in your interpetaion), and don't assume to much....and I don't belive jack shit of what NBC says...GE owns NBC...GE makes an ass load off war

[VinceZeb]

"Oh go wave yer flag and say 'Heil to the Thief'
most of what i see printed in the US is all hunky dory stuff
or tales of 'heroes' in iraq, they never seem to print anything
resembling the truth of what's going on over there.. "

*plays a funk metal intrulude....*


Yeah! Uh! Yeah!

[GAsux]

Issac,
So the true test of whether a bit of news is truthful or not is based upon who's reporting it?

The National Enquirer is not owned by GE. I guess we can assume that it's articles represent the truth right? Because they aren't some kind of creepy mouthpieces for corporate America.

I could sit down and write out a two page article about how horribly inept the Bush war in Iraq is, write about how no soldier wants to be there, and how many millions of civilians we're killing every single day. I could fill it with nothing but lies. But as long as I'm doing it independtly, and it also contradicts what the mainstream media is saying, it must be somehow factual right?

[ranxer]

the trouble with the news slants is that there are so many americans that do believe much of what is printed and shown on TV but 90% of the time its only a partial picture.. i personally think there is a lot of demonization of other cultures.. i daresay zenophobia is encouraged.

On the other hand decent news slips through once in a while in every paper and even on TV depending on which channels you might surf.. the less biased material is buried in crap though..

it takes a good education, patience, and diligence to check source and facts and too many americans lack the time especially when we have 6 out of 10 people claiming that we are somehow unpatriotic if we question the president.

and vince.. i'm pissed off as you might guess about the slander the people that resist this administration get. the concept of blind faith should not apply to our government.. the wave yer flag and go shopping stuff that so many groups (much of it from the right wing groups) is just insane.

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by VinceZeb

"Oh go wave yer flag and say 'Heil to the Thief'
most of what i see printed in the US is all hunky dory stuff
or tales of 'heroes' in iraq, they never seem to print anything
resembling the truth of what's going on over there.. "

*plays a funk metal intrulude....*


Yeah! Uh! Yeah!

Vince made me LOL. Strike me down, Lord.