Koran & Murder Case

[Abcdxxxx]

Required reading for Fuzzbot.

Muslims rise against terror by Nonie Darwish
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=20933

The silent majority is the problem by Nonie Darwish
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=16554

Here is a free book on the subject, for you in Arabic.
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/arabic.html
Or Persian.
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/persian.html

[Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by I, fuzzbot.

My proof is living IN THE REGION. My proof is SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE. My proof is FAMILY members who've been there, who do this sort of thing for a living (journalism, war and news photography, etc.)

Your proof is being an ocean away typing up stupid shit carelessly on Google and actually relying on the info given.

It takes one click to edit information on the internet. Have you ever heard of a BOOK? Have you ever heard of learning a LANGUAGE that isn't your own in order to understand a group of people you like to label.

Why do you think I'm learning classical Hebrew? I do this to understand MYSELF, and where I'm coming from. I do this to understand the others I critisize, because there's nothing more shameful and embarrassing in this world than being an ignorant arrogant piece of shit know-it-all like you. Listen to what others have to say you fucking dropout. Talk to the ones who've gone through this instead of basing your so-called "facts" on articles on the Internet and a single translation of a book you're NOWHERE CLOSE TO UNDERSTANDING.

You didn't attack my other posts because you don't have an argument. I don't give a shit about your excuses, you fucking dimwit. Get educated before you get on people's asses.

What a pathetic response. And I thought you said you live in Switzerland, make your mind up, bigmouth.
I provided a link to my proof, how can I possibly edit that?

You seem to think that because you're a Muslim, that you cannot be proved wrong on any issues concerning Muslims. Well you just have been, loser.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Yeah, I know they exist because I am one. Apparently you know nothing of Jews from Arabic countries. You've told me to learn history, yet you run your own mouth in ignorance. Maybe you SHOULD try Wikiepedia at the very least. They were expelled, massacred, stripped of their rights, and their cultures. Do you call that tolerance? Or do you just refuse to recognize facts?

You DO know fuck-all about history. Look at the date I was fucking referring to: The Jahiliyyah.

During the four Rightly Guided Caliphs, the Kharijites tortured and murdered innocent Muslims all the time. They even killed the Prophet's son in law. Of course Muslims were/can be brutal. People of ANY religion can be brutal. Who killed Muslims and Jews of Jerusalem in 1099? Soldiers of the Cross. Does that mean that violence is a Christian trait? No.

When killing children in Beslan, does that mean violence is a Jewish trait? No.

When we look at terrorism, does that mean that violence is a Muslim trait? No.

It's not a trait within religion. It's violence in the NAME of religion.

Of course he was taught these are great merciful stories. What a fraud. I call bullshit.

The Bedouin of pre-Islamic Arabia enjoyed a rich and diverse religious tradition, you fuck. After Islam was discovered they remained that way for a while. I'm not denying the awful shit we did. That's why I spoke about the Imams: I've woken up to this reality. Judaism in this region developed its own variations on tradiational beleifs and practices. The Jews shared many of the same religious ideals as their pagan Arab counterparts. Haven't you ever heard about the Kohens? Don't you see their resemblence to the pagan Kahins?

The Arabs are known for the fact that they were greatly influenced by Jewish beliefs and practices. The roots of the Ka'ba itself goes back to Jewish traditions.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

What a pathetic response. And I thought you said you live in Switzerland, make your mind up, bigmouth.

I live in Switzerland, this is not where I come from, you ignorant child. I've lived in Bahrain for 18 years of my life. I've only been here for the past few months.

You seem to think that because you're a Muslim, that you cannot be proved wrong on any issues concerning Muslims. Well you just have been, loser.

If anyone has been proven wrong in this cock-up thread it's you. Give your money back to the college you wasted your time in, they obviously didn't do their job.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Required reading for our darling ABSFSDFxxxxdrsdfs:

Unholy War : Terror in the Name of Islam

The Venture of Islam, Volume 1 : The Classical Age of Islam

Islam : A Short History

[Pharaoh]

Required reading for infidels:

The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (And the Crusades)

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by Pharaoh

Required reading for infidels:

The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (And the Crusades)

Yeah I figured you'd post that, I saw someone discussing it on Teletubbies.com. You should really go there, it's more your educational level.

[Abcdxxxx]

Why are you bringing up Jordan at all if you're talking about the Jahiliyyah, eh?

While we're at it, isn't it ironic that you would write off a Jews interpretation of the Koran, when the Koran itself liberally borrows from Jewish and Christian scriptures in the first place? There were Jews who turned on Mohhamed because his interpretations of the Bible were laughable to them. Maybe that's why it's STILL insensitive to talk about conversion as redemption, you ridiculous little shit. Oh, and I know, Jews killed the Cannanites, and that's why in 2006 you're scared to raise your voice to your own community. Spare us the apologetics. In one breath you admit to issues within POPULARIZED Islam...and in the next you blame Israel, or you blame it on the distorted view of outsiders....Which is it?

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by I, fuzzbot.

I live in an Arab fucking country. I'm exposed to these videos EVERYDAY, don't you fuckign come here and tell me my facts are wrong.

I wouldn't brag about that. With the proliferation of disinformatin spread in the Arab world, and the lack of a truly free press. Are you really arguing that residents of Arab League nations are really working off some factual purity? Because if that's the case, can I have a pint of your blood...I'm craving cookies.

The average age of a suicide bomber is 20-21.
http://www.eisenhowerseries.com/pdfs...dahzur_ppt.pdf

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Why are you bringing up Jordan

When I talked about Jordan I was talking about Al Banna's Islamization project.

While we're at it, isn't it ironic that you would write off a Jews interpretation of the Koran, when the Koran itself liberally borrows from Jewish and Christian scriptures in the first place?

I don't think it's ironic at all, of course the Jew would be in favour of making us look more like scum. It happens all the time, because we do that when we write books about Judaism as well. It's normal. It's obvious. Get over it you bloated pile of bullshit.

Spare us the apologetics. In one breath you admit to issues within POPULARIZED Islam...and in the next you blame Israel, or you blame it on the distorted view of outsiders....Which is it?

I said that BECAUSE of certain flaws that receive a LOT of media coverage outsiders would have a distorted view of Islam.

Where did I blame Israel, you illiterate skunk?

With the proliferation of disinformatin spread in the Arab world, and the lack of a truly free press.

Jordan and Morocco are volatile kingdoms whose young monarchs have made timid steps toward democratization. So did Bahrain. Our media is almost as free, though it's normal for us to fear it.

Royals are being bashed in magazines. Islam is being questioned.

That's pretty fucking free to me, you stupid dick.

[Abcdxxxx]

Look kid, we agree on a great deal. I'm happy to discuss these issues with someone from the other side of the conflict...but cut the schizo act and don't come at me like that.

THEN: "Of course it would be better for all of us to stop hearing about them blowing shit up, but the Israelis are doing things that are thrice as bad as this, wiping out thrice as much of the population."

NOW: "Where did I blame Israel, you illiterate skunk? "


Still this gem is my favorite...all roads lead back to this hypocrisy:

"God won't punish you in this life BECAUSE he is preparing you for the next life. The next life is where you will be punished, then."

Really cut the fucking double talk already, you snake. I'll pretend you didn't just portray Bahrain as "making timid steps towards democratization", when a minute ago you were using the excuse of being killed for voicing certain thoughts... you started out strong, with some decent posts here...and now you just sound like clown who lost his red nose.

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

"Of course it would be better for all of us to stop hearing about them blowing shit up, but the Israelis are doing things that are thrice as bad as this, wiping out thrice as much of the population."

I was NOT blaming Israel for anything, I already said that suicide bombing is wrong. I'm saying that they see bombing themselves as a last resort to the Israelis who DO have the weapons required to destory them. Suicide bombing boggles the mind. I'm sure you know that suicide in general is forbidden in the Koran. No one chooses when you die but God. Suicide bombing, therefore, should not be associated with the Koran, no matter what these kids say before their death. Islam will never justify such a thing.

Really cut the fucking double talk already, you snake.

Stop acting like you're cross-eyed. You're misunderstanding a lot of what I'm saying.

I'll pretend you didn't just portray Bahrain as "making timid steps towards democratization", when a minute ago you were using the excuse of being killed for voicing certain thoughts

Did you even read that post carefully? I said that we are moving towards a DEMOCRATIC MONARCHY WHERE WE CAN VOTE, BASH THE GOVERNMENT AS MUCH AS WE WANT, AND USE THE INTERNET FOR OUR PERSONAL NEEDS.

There, in caps, so you won't miss it again.

Bahrain changed so much (TOO much, even, that it's hard for us to adapt - this is why I said we STILL fear using the media to voice our opinions), within the last few years. Why do you think Rice was here a few weeks ago? She encouraged us to be more democratic. The King took this seriously. This is why our constituion now gives us the right for 'freedom of speech,' this didn't exist before the King came into power. In the late 90's, things were still bad (when we were still a State, under the Sheikh.) Right after we became a Kingdom, we went through some massive political and societial changes. We did get in trouble before, but now people can easily get out of it because the law is on our side. You just have to be smart about it - Political parties publish newsletters that bash the Royals all the time, indirectly. I just don't recommend that you do something like wish death upon the Royals in a very public newspaper.

It's still scary because the absolute power is there, but people DO take risks, so our media IS more free. A lot get away with it. Some don't. I'm not willing to put my life in danger just so I can get my thoughts out there, doesn't mean you can't voice your opinion.

you started out strong, with some decent posts here...and now you just sound like clown who lost his red nose.

I think the problem here is you misunderstanding and assuming a lot of the stuff I'm saying. You put a lot of words in my mouth. I'm being as specific as I can, so spare me the hostility.

but cut the schizo act and don't come at me like that.

I asked you to look back at history and you called me an ignorant fool who doesn't know what he's talking about, who's being misinformed because "oh he lives in an Arab country of course they're going to teach him utter crap." We were both referring to completely different time periods. I admit that I misunderstood you and vice versa, that doesn't give you the right to call me ignorant about what I'm talking about. I spent a good deal of my time reading up on this stuff, talking to experts and those who interpret this stuff so I can expose myself to their point of views and compare it with mine.

I've done my best here to show you where I'm coming from. It's normal that I'm going to get pissed off, you're critisizing my religion and backing it up with skewed material. If you don't agree with me, that's fine, but after what I've said you can't just tell me that I'm bullshitting. You assumed that I'm making Muslims seem like fairies who want the world to live in the land of candy and rainbows, I already said that a lot of Muslims out there are destroying our religion over shit that isn't even part of it. The subjet of this thread (and some of its responses) is about how the Koran promotes violence, racism, sexism and as a Muslim I have every right to defend my faith and inform you that those misconceptions are wrong. I didn't say that you have to believe me merely because I'm a Muslim, I didn't say you HAVE to believe me at all, I just used the fact that I'm a Muslim to show you that I DO have experience in this field. And yes, as silly as that sounds it does matter. I would never call myself educated enough to critisize another religion mainly because I never lived amongst them, despite the fact that I've been to Bible school. That just doesn't do it for me, in order to understand those who follow it I must surround myself with them. Before you slap them under certain catagories and say that what they're doing is justified through their religious texts, I suggest you do the same.

[Abcdxxxx]

Oh, your other personality came back to play! Goodie. Of course, everything I say will be skewed to you, because I'm a non-Muslim...which is odd since you were inviting discussion, and the possibility that you would have to admit you're wrong earlier. Sorry to rain on your lecture series. If it makes you feel better, I've taken the "How Persian are you?" quiz online, and scored better then my friends who actually are Persian.

Anyway, I told you to question the Shaheeds use of Koranic scriptures, and you blamed Israel instead. There was no misunderstanding there, just a difference of opinion.

Meanwhile - is change really why fear voicing your opinions in Bahrain, or does Tehran's Court 1410 really have something to do with why you fear using your newfound "freedoms". Be honest.
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11978
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=13306
Press freedom shrank daily during 2004 in Iran, one the world’s 10 countries most repressive of the media. Countless threats hang over journalists and they are beaten when thrown in jail. The country has for years been the Middle East’s biggest prison for journalists.

We're talking about generations indoctrinated with hate propaganda, so how many years of a sort of kind of almost free press, but not really does it take to un-do that damage? Look how mislead Americans can be even WITH freedom of expression. Bragging that you live in Iran, and therefor are aware, and superior in knowledge when it comes to topics such as Islamic relations towards outsiders...wellll come on now. The majority of your outsiders got tossed out a long time ago, while here in America, major cities are full of Muslims. You can't leave your door in Israel without coming into contact with Muslims, either. So I agree with you when you talk about you surrounding yourself with people of other cultures, to help better understand them.... but you've been out of Iran for what, three months now?

Honest question, and I'm not baiting you .... but did you know any Jews in Iran?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Oh, your other personality came back to play!

Well aren't you just funny. Yeah. This is just hysterical comedy gold!

Of course, everything I say will be skewed to you, because I'm a non-Muslim

PLENTY of non-Muslims know loads about Islam, you're just not one of them. Sorry.

Press freedom shrank daily during 2004 in Iran, one the world’s 10 countries most repressive of the media. Countless threats hang over journalists and they are beaten when thrown in jail. The country has for years been the Middle East’s biggest prison for journalists.

You were talking about the Arab world. Iran is part of the Middle East, NOT the Arab world. Get your facts right before you dismantle my post.

Bragging that you live in Iran, and therefor are aware, and superior in knowledge when it comes to topics such as Islamic relations towards outsiders...wellll come on now.

Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? Bahrain is NOT Iran! Bahrain is in the PERSIAN Gulf, it is NOT part of IRAN! COMPLETELY different place!

My mother is an Iranian immigrant. There are many Iranians in Bahrain who fled at the time, so we used to have a lot of Iranians in Bahrain, but not anymore. They were either deported since they came here illegally, or they left for other countries, but most went back to Iran.

Wow, I really don't know what else to say. I can't believe you even attempted to argue with me if you don't even know what laws applied to what I was talking about. DUH you'd think I was ignorant if you didn't even know where the hell I'm from! I'd think you were ignorant too if you were talking about Mexico and I assumed that it's part of America.

Honest question, and I'm not baiting you .... but did you know any Jews in Iran?

How the fuck would I come across any Jews in Iran if I've never even been to Iran?!

Bahrain is a Kingdom! Not a city!

[ScruU2wice]

Originally Posted by Pharaoh

Lol. Even though I haven't said a single thing about race yet, you can't wait to call me a racist. It's the PC leftie's worst insult, and biggest fear of being accused of themselves. Well it may surprise you to learn that Islam is not a race and neither is homosexuality, so what are you basing your accusation on?

Every single one of your comments were directed toward the Pakistani population of Britian which is largely muslim (If you deny it you're full of shit I know there is a strong anti-pakistani influence in britain, just like there was a strong anti-black influecne here up untill the 60's.)

You constantly bring up that fact that Islam is a hatefilled religion and support it using every single farfetched case involving a muslim.

You made a comment that "islam was on trial here". You said that muslims don't really do anything but beat there wives.

You try to neutralize every logical response by saying that I'm a crazy PC liberal, but refuse to look at anything but your point of view with out the utmost hostility.

Replace every time you said Muslim with ****** and you becom Strom Therman.

[ziggytrix]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Of course, everything I say will be skewed to you, because I'm a non-Muslim...

That and the fact that you are constantly arguing on this forum that Islam is inherently wicked. One doesn't come much more biased than that. :/

[Pharaoh]

ScruU2wice, why do you think Pakistanis don't integrate well here and yet Indians do? One reason, Islam.

We don't have Indians blowing themselves up in London, killing dozens, and badly injuring many more.
I don't care what country they come from, if they're Muslim they cause problems here.

And I said Islam was on trial here because, due to Abu Hanza's defence claiming hate speech was only from the Koran, it is. What's your problem with that?

[imported_I, fuzzbot.]

Originally Posted by Pharaoh

ScruU2wice, why do you think Pakistanis don't integrate well here and yet Indians do? One reason, Islam.

We don't have Indians blowing themselves up in London, killing dozens, and badly injuring many more.
I don't care what country they come from, if they're Muslim they cause problems here.

And I said Islam was on trial here because, due to Abu Hanza's defence claiming hate speech was only from the Koran, it is. What's your problem with that?

The problem is not Islam. There are a lot of Brits who've converted to Islam, but they don't cause problems for a reason: Their religion doesn't allow it, nor does it justfity it.

Islam is probably the 2nd biggest religion in India, meaning there are a lot of Muslim Indians, even amongst those in the UK. They don't cause problems JUST because they're Muslims. You can't assume they're not Muslim JUST because they don't cause problems. Look up the Muslim population in the UK, and give me the percentage of those who actually do cause problems. You'll be shocked.

How would you know an Indian from a Pakistani? If he's actually Indian, and he caused problems, you'd call him a Pakistani just because most Pakistanis are Muslims? That's what your post is implying.

Your mentality is not just stupid, it's absurd.

Grow up.

[Pub Lover]

Originally Posted by ScruU2wice

...directed toward the Pakistani population of Britian which is largely muslim (If you deny it you're full of shit I know there is a strong anti-pakistani influence in britain...

The first thread I remember making in Philo/Poli way back on EZboard was about the inconsistancy of Pakistanis being from Pakistan, while it's Afghans from Afghanistan, Uzbeks from Uzbekistan, etc. I ended the post with a promise of posting more rants against Muslims, but I left the country, & apprantly lost interest.

Edit: I don't remember being that much of a jackass.

[kahljorn]

Link posted by abc:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=20933

Sounds like what I was saying about how improved diplomacy/culturization in the area could cause ill-will against the terrorists. See, it is possible.

[ScruU2wice]

you don't really have to tell me that pakistanis can be backward thinking. They aren't big fans of the Jews or Americans, but not all Muslims are pakistanis, and not all Pakistanis are radicalists. Don't forget the irony of you preaching hate against Islam about Islam preaching hate.

My problem with you saying that Islam is on trial is because Islam is a blanket defence in a trial where someone is desperate to stay of jail. you should realize that many people will say anything to get off the hook for a crime and not really mean it at all.

[mburbank]

Last I checked, all major world religious texts had some very nice tolerant stuff and some really nasty violent stuff in them.

Last I checked, every major world religion had done some very nice stuff like helping poor people and sick people and some very ugly stuff like killing all sorts of people.

Last I checked no world religous text was always interpretted by it's followers as inherently violent to outsiders or inherently tolerant of outsiders.

Last I checked, various groups of practitioners of each of the worlds religions had serious disagreements about what their religous texts meant.

The Pope during the Inquisition certainly managed to find much scriptural support for burning tons of people to death.

Many American Christians today find justification for thinking homosexuality sinful in Leviticus, while ignoring that Leviticus also intructs you to disasemble your house if their is mildew. Many American Christians believe that Jesus's new covenant meant God no longer cared if they kept Kosher as the old testament intructs, but feel that Jesus's new covenenat DID NOT mean to stop thinking homosexuality was a sin.

That's the thing about these major religous texts. They're complicated. People devote entire liftetimes to their study. Don't be so quick to dismiss the Koran or Islam. You want to make a case against extremist fundamentalists? Good. Me too. But if you think only Islam has them, you'd be wrong, and if you think this moment in history tells you something about Islam that it hasn't already told you about every other religion... well, you're just a little bit stupid, aren't you?

[KevinTheOmnivore]

Originally Posted by mburbank

The Pope during the Inquisition certainly managed to find much scriptural support for burning tons of people to death.

Right, but modern Catholics don't do this (presumably).

The Church, and Christianity in general, has all gone through its dark and primitive phases. And while glimmers of that still exist today, they don't compare to the actions conducted in the name of Islam.

I think what folks like ABC are looking for is an acknowledgement that it isn't just misinterpretation, but rather, something systemically wrong that goes beyond bad translations.

You Max just provided a great example with leviticus. It isn't really about interpretation at all, is it? I think it has more to do with modernity. Christians may believe all sorts of things from the Bible, but it's really their compulsion to act on those things and accept those things that distinguishes them from good and bad, right?

A lot of American Christians would probably feel pretty comfortable in some kind of a theocracy. But the majority, even a lot of Christians, accept that there needs to be a separation of Church and state so that all can be free to practice.

It seems like a lot of Muslim nations haven't quite reached the latter two points as of yet, which would seem to make all of the textual comparisons sort of moot, imo.

[mburbank]

"The Church, and Christianity in general, has all gone through its dark and primitive phases. "

Wow. Thank God for that. If not for the fact that all religous practice progresses steadily toward tolerance and away from atrocity, I might get scared. It's GONE through it? You're certain about that? I mean, I'm not predicting a return to auto dafe I think you're being pretty cocky. Everybody always thinks the way things are in their time is hwere everything has always been headed and that history can just stop changing now.

AND if it was correct to determine that a religion had something inherently evil in it, would you agree that Christianity should have thrown out with the bathwater during the Inquisition?

ABC may be correct that there is something sytemically wrong, but I would say the system os organized religion on a world scale. AND I don't even really think that. But there's barbarism a plenty in most of your religous texts, and even when there isn't much, there are always swaths of people ready to read it in.

"Christians may believe all sorts of things from the Bible, but it's really their compulsion to act on those things and accept those things that distinguishes them from good and bad, right? "

I homestly don't know what you mean, here.

I don't know how strong a majority feels a need for a separeation between church and state, as long as it's the true real actual church they belong to as opposed to some violent heathen farce. Right now all three branches of government are controlled by a party headed by a man who does not seem to think the church/state divide is all that important and at very least is due for some serious ventilation.

"It seems like a lot of Muslim nations haven't quite reached the latter two points as of yet, which would seem to make all of the textual comparisons sort of moot, imo."

I think that has just as much to do with colonialism, economics and battles won and lost as it does with religion. If you turned the world around, made Islam the historically more powerful and Christianity a third world religion, do you honestly believe that Christianity would be way more civil just do to it's inherent goodness?

I think violent fundamentalists are a very bad thing. On the other hand, I think superpowers completely sure of their moral superiority also present certain dangers and can be pretty scary. Osama on his worst day would be ahrd pressed to end life on earth. We can do it whenever we please. I'm pretty sure we won't, but it's got to be scary on the other end of that kind of power, espcially when we reserve the right to bomb anyone back to the stoneage.

I think violent fundamentalism is a problem all it's own, a poisonous, contageous mental sickness that grafts itself to religion. I think historically there is evidence that strong religous belief makes people vulnerable to fundamentalism. But religion isn't all it likes. It likes nationalism too, and even patriotism.

I think believing that it's their religion that makes fundamentalists evil, that the religion itself is poison, especially in the absence of a really in depth understanding, is the first step into becoming fundamentalists ourselves. A large portion of americans are able to stomach colateral death in Iraq (30,000 says the President like he's talking about fishsticks instead of people) because we know they are not human the way we are. After all, they want us dead, they will stop at nothing, and if we don't have a really clear idea of who they are, well, we know they're all Muslims. Why not just call them Orcs and have done with it?

[kahljorn]

Did you know some of the ideas from the holocaust actually came from the crusades? Like making them wear yellow stars-- if I remember right that was based on the yellow hats issued by the pope. They also came from early Christian times, pretty much dating back to whenever people got angry that the jews crucified jesus.