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  #26  
ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 12:24 PM        sheesh
hey, insult all you want.. i simply said what i thought about the images and asked a couple questions and said if my thought was true then such and such, i didnt claim they were the same tank.

i don't take indymedia as fact.. i expect alot of different views to show up there.. and if i'm posting i state if its fact, if its not i say so! rumor, acusation, etc.

i admit my suspicians and my bias

i didn't call you any names(yea, but i don't really care much about insults most of the time, if thats what you need then so be it)
and
i'm STILL PISSED that my taxes go to war toys..
whether israeli or not is argueable..
don't tell me that tax writeoffs by major weapons manufactures and huge amounts for research and testing(not to mention wars used for sales) don't help ALL those buying weapons from our corporations.. Isreal is in the mix, whether they are strictly buying, selling, researching, testing or whatever with our international coroporations is irrelevant to me when we are talking billions.
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  #27  
Abcdxxxx Abcdxxxx is offline
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 03:39 PM        Re: sheesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
i'm STILL PISSED that my taxes go to war toys..
whether israeli or not is argueable..
don't tell me that tax writeoffs by major weapons manufactures and huge amounts for research and testing(not to mention wars used for sales) don't help ALL those buying weapons from our corporations.. Isreal is in the mix, whether they are strictly buying, selling, researching, testing or whatever with our international coroporations is irrelevant to me when we are talking billions.
Then isn't it discrimination to take Israel "out of the mix" and single them out?????


Israel buys arms from the United States, as do many other nations, including Arabic states. It's called Foriegn Miltary Financing, and it goes towards creating billions of dollars in revenue for the US each year. This means 74% of aid must be spent in the US to generate profits and create jobs.
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 04:05 PM       
A weak willed bitch? Whoah, 'jump back'.

He never said it didn't matter to him, he said the aggrandizement of her death and the obsessive controversy surrounding detract from real debate on both sides. Having read this thread I see ample evidence that this womans corpse has been fetishized by with more enthusiasm by both sides than a stiff at a Necrophile convention. I cannot imagine a way this could contribute to a cessation of violence. I'm just guessing here, but I bet she was neither a saint nor a demon and died somehwere in between.

You are overly eager for offense, as you were overly eager to hold forth on this subject, which you did the instant someone pulled aside the thin veil you coyly held over your zeal. If anything was weak willed, that was. You have something to say, a point to make, make it. Don't batt your eyelashes and say "Oh, I was just wondering what YOU make of it."

Often you have something to say. Often you are well informed. But speaking as someone who might actually take something away from what you bring to the table, your rabid presentation and your ravenous need to be aggreived and lash out color your arguments.
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  #29  
ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 05:14 PM       
isreal has policies that single itself out.. i'd like to get more informed before i get into isreal debates but i have seen people get blacklisted and worse for bringing isreal up in public.. the dark cloud that surrounds the israeli issues scares me as much as gwb but i must admit i don't know enough to back up or ague any claims about isreal.. i think i'm in solidarity with the folks that started the 'not in my name' group over there.

i also know that when i wore that button(not in my name) in certain upperclass areas, zionists(they didnt claim to be but after looking into it i guess they were fundamentalist zionists) got really rabbid at me but i didnt know much about what they were yelling
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 05:29 PM       
Burbank's just dying to give me a manners class. You realize you've made a dozen posts in response to presentation rather then content. I'm sorry you don't like my demeanor there Maxie, but save it for your semiotics dissertation on computer debating ethics will ya?

I wasn't playing hard to get, I was seriously questioning the ability of those on this board to see through propaganda ... and apparently you're all a buncha suckers. So be it. From my vantage point I see a lot of kids sitting in the States trying to be political with some real limitations to their understanding of the situation...and they'll believe what they want to in order to support their half baked beliefs... It wasn't that long ago some of you were talking about Arafat as a man of peace who had changed his ways.

How exactly has the pro-Israel contigent, who would like this to go away, helped to exploit her name? By putting light on the situation as it was and questioning inconsitancies in the photos? Are you aware of the story of one little Muhammad Al-Dura, a poster boy in his own right? Now the circumstances of these deaths must be questioned, for they are being held up for the world to see as examples. Look, nobody is debating the fact that she died and it was horrible...but do you like seeing her corpse on the internet? You like knowing that someone who represents peace in the middle east for the movement was actually sympathetic and working alongside terrorists? It's a problem. She wasn't the first American casualty of this conflict and sadly it's unlikely she'll be the last.

Next time you see a Rachel Corrie poster, or see her name mentioned, ask yourself who Abigail Litle was... and wonder why nobody cares.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 05:59 PM       
Now excuse me, but firstly....what the fuck does an "upper class neighborhood" have to do with the reaction your button got? I really can't wait for an answer to this one.

Secondly. I can tell you one reason why someone would be disturbed by your NIMN pin and it has NOTHING to do with Zionism. Ready? That organization (based out of the Midwest, not Israel) is apparently blind and deaf to violence commited against Israeli citizens. If one reads their news update page on the web they would be completely unaware of the violent acts being commited against innocent civilians..... no mention of terrorism... nothing about Hamas and their refusal to live in peace with Jews... no talk of suicide bombings...it doesn't exist.... the only casualties they see worth acknowledging are those of Palestinians. I have a lot of radical leftist friends who find this disturbing... hell, I'd think anyone with a conscious would find this disturbing. It's about a sense of humanity, not Zionism.

So ranxer, let me suggest that before you wear a button, or engage in debate on a subject as fragile and sticky as the Israel issue, that you do look at all sides of the argument rather then parrot the sources you normally trust. Are you just a causest who follows the party line like a sheep? No matter what the subject I suggest you learn the history before you form an opinion, and voice it in public.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
isreal has policies that single itself out.. i'd like to get more informed before i get into isreal debates but i have seen people get blacklisted and worse for bringing isreal up in public.. the dark cloud that surrounds the israeli issues scares me as much as gwb but i must admit i don't know enough to back up or ague any claims about isreal.. i think i'm in solidarity with the folks that started the 'not in my name' group over there.

i also know that when i wore that button(not in my name) in certain upperclass areas, zionists(they didnt claim to be but after looking into it i guess they were fundamentalist zionists) got really rabbid at me but i didnt know much about what they were yelling
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ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 08:00 PM       
I'm glad so many people inherently know the TRUTH without knowing all the FACTS. God sure was nice to give you some of his omniscience.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 08:57 PM       
you tell 'em squiggy!
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KevinTheOmnivore KevinTheOmnivore is offline
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 10:33 PM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggytrix
I'm glad so many people inherently know the TRUTH without knowing all the FACTS. God sure was nice to give you some of his omniscience.
I'm glad to see such clear contributions to this thread!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
Rachel Corrie in her own words. .....
"I would also like to ask you, and those to whom you pass this on, to think about the relative positions of the fighters and occupiers in this monumentally unequal struggle. While the huge force of Israelis have every technical aid invented by the US war machine, the few young fighters have NOTHING BUT THEIR WEAPON (and this not the most modern) - no helmet, bullet proof vest, radio contact or other protection. No back-up, no plane, helicopter, tank, APC, searchlight, dogs, flares, ambulance or refuge - put all the Israeli/American propaganda aside for a few minutes and try to imagine, please, the courage it requires to do what these youngfighters do, knowing that the odds are against escape and that, every time they do succeed in evading death, the odds against a further survival are shortened. Even if the operation is a success the price is always high." - from her February 10th diary entry.
and......

Quote:
To her Mother she wrote....
"I thought a lot about what you said on the phone about Palestinian violence not helping the situation. "......"If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained? I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is. I really think, in a similar situation, most people would defend themselves as best they could. I think Uncle Craig would. I think probably Grandma would. I think I would. You asked me about non-violent resistance." http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...916246,00.html

Quote:
She lavishes praise on suicide bombers. She advocated the violence and mass murder of terrorist and criminal actions...
Eh, eh, eh! Hold on. Now is this what she advocated...? Here's another quote from her:

"do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect . . . whatever fragments remained?"
(Washington Post, 4/19/03)

Is she coming off as an apologist? Yes. But, you are taking her VERY MUCH out of context when you say that her applause for "young fighters" is a justification of suicide bombing. She IS defending, I have no doubt, the meager assualts on IDF troops and out posts by armed Palestinians.

What you, and others who wish to smear her name, call justification is at its worst her creating some kind of moral equivalence between desperate actions and desperate people. Watching these people, living with these people, she sees them suffer, she sees them become desparate.

The question she is attempting to raise is one many already have. If someone bombed your house, how willing to die would you become? If somebody bulldozed your home, how desparate would you become? However, neither her, nor the ISM for that matter, justify the suicide bombings.

Quote:
Here she talks about a demonstration for Childrens rights where she refers to fatah, hamas, and PLFP as "community groups".......
Now see, this is where it gets tricky (wait, oh wait, your head won't be able to take this one). The continuous problem I've learned with groups like Hamas, which advocate terrible things and evil acts, is that they DO do charity work within the Palestinian community, and they in fact are LOVED by many Palestinians!

To my understanding, Hamas operates much like an umbrella group. Much of it is shit that deserves to be noted as such, but there is a faction of Hamas apparently that serves as a non-violent, civil disobedience sect. I believe they are even denounced by the other wings of Hamas for being too "passive" even.

That aside, that only, if even, explains Hamas. But she throws Fateh in there, among other rotten groups. But don't doubt that when she says "community groups," she is truly being earnest about their work in the community. Does this justify the terrible actions that they condone? No. But this again raises the problem: folks like you call for the removal of swine like Arafat, but if that were so, who do you think these people would turn to in his place? The new PM??? HA!

It has much to do with anti-semitism. It also has much to do with desperation.


Quote:
She's political but she is NOT a peace activist. She's also supporting the indoctrinization of young children with hatred and the will to commit violent acts. She supported terrorism or um..."militants" ...and she was not ashamed of it. Call a spade a spade.
By burning flags? By, in her PERSONAL e-mails to her mother, questioning the actions of those on both sides? Do you think that's what she did, taught 5 year olds to hate Jews....?


Quote:
It's in her own words... NOT propaganda published by the IDF.
Her own words, even by you, have been distorted.


Quote:
The ISM support the Intifada. http://www.palsolidarity.org//whoarewe.htm
They support resistance, not peace.
Lets complete the sentence, shall we???

Quote:
Originally Posted by "www.palsolidarity.org
We utilize NONVIOLENT, direct-action methods of RESISTANCE to confront and challenge illegal Israeli occupation forces and policies.

Quote:
Ask Susan Barclay, another ISM worker who was recently deported from the West Bank. Yes she says they were there to take part in mundane activities like walking children to schools, etc. She also admitted in several interviews (I know of one with the Seattle Post-Intellifencer) that she knowingly worked with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, terrorist groups with charters calling for the complete demolishen of the Jewish state.
Yes, and this is wrong. But when you're serving as a group aimed to aid the Palestinian people, and many of the only established groups there that not only GRANT help to the Palestinians, but are also TRUSTED by the Palestinians, you can either stay outside that web and accomplish little to nothing, or make strange bed-fellows with those groups, and try to accomplish something. Supporting terrorism is wrong, but this is NOTwhat the ISM has set out to do.

In fact, looking at the ISM website, they specifically denounce the support of such activities, because they feel it only gives Ariel Sharon fuel to press down on them harder (and they're right). Any supporting, or "trafficing" done for these groups through the ISM is the exception, not the norm, and is certainly NOT the policy and the goal.

With that aside, lets note something else: It would be unfortunate if Rachel Corrie was a rotten anti-semite, and that she willingly supported the intifada (haven't found anything other than IDF trestimony substantiating the claim that the house was used for gun trafficing, though), does this justify her death/murder?? If Rachel was a criminal, that is if she was aiding in the support of illegal, terrorist activities, then tragic as it may be, she was in the wrong place, very wrong time.

But what I see here isn't a correlation between Corrie and her actual activities, rather, a kind of justification for her death based on her character. "Rachel was sympathetic to gunmen in personal e-mails to her mother, so she OBVIOUSLY deserved to have her skull crushed."

The IDF internal investigation seemed rather fast to me, and read more like a condemnation of Rachel rather than an honest inquiry into the actions of the IDF that day. I hope a serious U.S. investigation is conducted, and if the soldier operating the bulldozer, as well as the IDF, are innocent, let them be cleared. Lets prove it.
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  #35  
ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old Apr 22nd, 2003, 11:38 PM       
well Abcdx, i was wearing the button where there was a servant class hidden and waiting on the elite with religious overtones (a rare occurance for me) and wasnt aware that many saw the statement of nimn as isreali!
i was wearing it to protest how our taxes are being used and our rights being obliterated to wage the war(on iraq).. i didnt mean to bring up isreal at all and thus was taken by surprise to find that people thought i was 'anti-isreal' from it. i had absolutly no thoughts about isreal related to nimn when i came across that button. and i say zionists but am still not sure what the hell those folks were.
i realized after that i should have 'not in our name' to be more correct to the trademarking of slogans on the net and who knows where else or what for others are using the slogans.
www.notinourname.net

i still think folks can have a general opinion on the isreal conflict without getting into specifics. i'm not voting on the problem(as if i could) so relax i'm just voicing some understandings, questions and maybe some accusations..

but if you think that having empathy for folks that have very little and are up against a wall and worse by a powerful nation that is armed to the teeth is supporting terrorists then i really have no interest in reading yer words about it.

truly many of the 'terrorist' groups only have terrorist elements in them, as kevin is describing them as social groups in a large part is what ive read/heard as well.

the situation is far from being described by our papers and journals, i'm pretty convinced that the disinformation is about as strong if not stronger than the information in the news, especially about isreali conflicts, the terms for the groups and leaders are so simplified its sickening to think of what is not being told. the tendrils of the cia(or other covert ops) and mussad are in the 'terrorist' groups causing untold destruction. there are occasional leaks about it that disappear quickly.. i can't say i know nearly enough about it to name anyone but i suspect that the truth is not let out in too many places. the issues are complex and there are many biases and even some the truth cannot come out or people in power will have reckon with being tried for warcrimes.
this is systematic of the capitalist game today.. get as many hands dirty as you can so everyone is guilty and cannot point fingers unless they are admitting guilt

my assumptions about the conflict are largely based on how power in the hands of the few over the many have similar problems.

but, i'd much rather listen to many varied people from the region than discuss what i think is right or wrong about it
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ziggytrix ziggytrix is offline
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 12:26 AM       
"let me suggest that before you wear a button, or engage in debate on a subject as fragile and sticky as the Israel issue, that you do look at all sides of the argument rather then parrot the sources you normally trust"

which is basically all most of you do in this forum anyway... including the guy i'm quoting if half of what i've read of his is anything to go on.

i like the way i said it earlier better
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 01:55 AM       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranxer
well Abcdx, i was wearing the button where there was a servant class hidden and waiting on the elite with religious overtones (a rare occurance for me) and wasnt aware that many saw the statement of nimn as isreali! i was wearing it to protest how our taxes are being used and our rights being obliterated to wage the war(on iraq).. i didnt mean to bring up isreal at all and thus was taken by surprise to find that people thought i was 'anti-isreal' from it.
NIMN stands for Not In My Name, am I correct? The organization exists solely to oppose what they see as Israeli occupation. It's a decidely anti-Israel group run by Jews of some sort. Are you making the assertion that Israel is to blame for war on Iraq?


Quote:
i had absolutly no thoughts about isreal related to nimn when i came across that button. and i say zionists but am still not sure what the hell those folks were.
i realized after that i should have 'not in our name' to be more correct to the trademarking of slogans on the net and who knows where else or what for others are using the slogans.
www.notinourname.net

Were you wearing a NION or a NIMN badge? Two different organizations with confusing names. Can you clarify?


Quote:
but if you think that having empathy for folks that have very little and are up against a wall and worse by a powerful nation that is armed to the teeth is supporting terrorists then i really have no interest in reading yer words about it.
okay assuming you're not working under some false impression that Jews are all a people of privledge and power, then one could turn what you just described and rephrase it this way.... Jews have "very little (only 2% of middle eastern land) and are up against a wall and a worse (or an ocean and a lot of enemies) by a poweful nation (or a league of powerful arab nations that already cleansed their populations of Jews) that is armed to the teeth, is supporting terrorists, then I really have no interest in read yer words about it".


Quote:
truly many of the 'terrorist' groups only have terrorist elements in them, as kevin is describing them as social groups in a large part is what ive read/heard as well.
Hamas and others play huge parts in their communities, but their existance are based around terrorist activities. You don't have to believe me...believe THEM. It's in their charters, and all over their statements of purpose. Sure they help the children, but they also indoctrinate them with hatred and conduct suicide bomber camps. Is it really a trade off ? You really feel confident in calling militant groups that take public credit for mass homocides "community groups" because they do good deeds too? The Klan used to hold really good bake sales, but they were still the Klan.


Quote:
but, i'd much rather listen to many varied people from the region than discuss what i think is right or wrong about it
Good idea. Except I sense you already have an aversion to this thing called Zionism though, and a predetermined nature to dissent from any government power structure to side with "the people" no matter who or what they're about. So with that bias I'd be shocked if you could actually read anything pro-Israel with an open mind.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 02:42 AM       
Kevin:
Is that your best rebutal? Nobody is defending the right to kill her or justifying the death. Do you understand that? I don't think you do. Does Rachel Corrie need to be a criminal here? I don't think so....but once again, let's not glorify her actions as somehow heroic. People are parading around with her image, as a human rights activist, when she was just someone with a decisively pro-palestinian stance sympathetic and supportive to the intifada. That's it. It's in her own words. Put them back into context, and she STILL rationalized the Intifada. There is no context in which teaching Palestinian children to burn an Israeli flag can be construed as teaching tolerance, coexistance or aiding their struggle in a constructive PEACEFUL manner. Did she deserve to die for it? NO! You're missing the point if you think anyone's saying that. There is no moral equivalency. There is no justification. Wether it's Rachel Corrie as the victim or a young teenage Baptist girl on a bus. Violence is violence. We all want it to stop. Don't we? Don't you think it would be a better idea for an International peace activist group to disassociate from violent groups that commit premeditated murders? What amount of community service makes genicidal homocide acceptable? Do tell.

Don't you think it would serve their time better to send their members to put pressure on the Palestinian Authority for the release of billions in stolen funds rather then putting their life on the line jumping on bulldozers? Maybe they should work to remove civilians from dangerous areas along the Philladelphi line in Rafah, and relocate them in better safer neighborhoods so that the IDF can shut down these tunnels. I know why not... because they were protecting the TUNNELS not the homes. Rachel Corrie even acknowledged these tunnels in her diary...she knew they were there. It's not a smear campaign against some poor innocent girl, it's a reaction to an organization that has exploited this incident to smear the IDF. They waited for an oppurtunity like this, and they had photographers standing by just in case!

Just as nothing proves the IDF side of the story without investigation, absolutely NOTHING proves the ISM or PA side, which oddly enough KEEPS CHANGING, and has always conflicted to begin with. Where is the house in any of those photos? Where is the family or the doctor supposedly inside? Why did the doctor on the scene lie and say she was DOA when the pictures, along with the testimonies prove otherwise? Why did the ISM change their story? If the bulldozer really backed over her then why is her body intact? Do you realize how hard it is to get hit by a tractor moving ten miles an hour??? Why isn't there any logic to the evidence that ties it together? Why are you guy's using suspension of belief to believe what you want? D-10 Catepillars do not have lights that raise and lower!!!! The sun in Israel does not shift that drastically in 15 minute time spans. Tragic incidents like this do not normally need to be embelished!!!! Nobody even needed to see play by play photos. The event would have been JUST as harsh without the ISM milking it with "proof". She obviously died...it's horrible...what are they tryiing to hide?

"Supporting terrorism is wrong, but this is NOTwhat the ISM has set out to do. "

So acting as shields for Arafat, and armed militants associated with various terror groups inside of the Church of Nativity isn't supporting terrorism? They support resistance NOT peace. If you want to pretend their association working alongside terrorists is all accidental fringe activities then you're just turning a blind eye.
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Sethomas Sethomas is offline
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 03:12 AM       
I need not argue against you because there are people on the board versed well enough to do so more eloquently than I. Mostly, I would rather not waste my time contributing to the evidence against your points because you face us with blind eyes, but I may as well read and learn. Nevertheless,

They support resistance NOT peace.

This is the axis of your ineptitude. You can't escape the superstructure in which you see resistance as the antithesis to peace. You must learn to accept the fact that when the present order of things in a state of moral depravity, resistance is in the right. Israel has done some very nasty things to the Palestinians, so resistance is in order. The shameful fact of the world is that violence is more visible, and thus more easy, than non-violence. This is why the MEANS of resistance are so universally deplorable, and neither this poor girl nor I will try to justify such violence. You reap what you sow, and Israel has planted the violent seeds that demand resistance. Pray that no more lives shall be lost.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 10:10 AM       
Quote:
Are you making the assertion that Israel is to blame for war on Iraq?
has a lot to do with it yes, but that's NOT what i was talking about.
yes, nimn is not in my name and that is the button that i was wearing.

again as i said before i had no intention of bringing up isreal in any fashion but those folks jumped on me for it because They saw my NIMN button and assumed i was anti-isreal.. I'm more anti corporate totalitarianism than anti-isreal, so, where isreal approaches that i'm opposed to it.

and yes you have me correctly pidgeon holed about siding with 'the people' vs a 'state' or 'nation' when the state or nation disenfranchises the people. Isreal has more power and money per capita than almost any nation. so your twisting of my words is not what i meant.. the poor that are up against a wall are mostly palestinians.. although the situation has both sides in conflicting areas up against a wall. i'd like to give the people of isreal the benefit of the doubt but when i get attacked(verbally this time) for expressing sympathy for palestinians(even though it was mistaken on my part) i tend to think, hmm, these zionists(its my understanding that they are the most rabidly against NIMN) seem militant to me.

I brought up Not in Our Name because that is the button that i SHOULD have been wearing to avoid the Isreali confict issues but as i said before i didn't know enough about nimn till i was attacked over it. my experience is also a small thing in relation to the issues.. i don't assume that all zionist are totalitarian palistinian haters, its just that those are the only ones ive run into
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mburbank mburbank is offline
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 10:56 AM       
"Burbank's just dying to give me a manners class. You realize you've made a dozen posts in response to presentation rather then content."
-abcedxx

Someone needs to give you a manners lesson. Presentation vs. 'content' has meaning in this discussion. Suicide bombs and bulldozers are admittedly a different way to persue debate, but I'm not sure they're effective. You knee jerk, rabid enraged victim response typifies Palestinians and Jews. I cannot imagine the cycle of violence ever ending until one or both sides are all dead. Manners, and their concretized practice which we call Law are the time honored method by which humans refrain from killing each other.

"I wasn't playing hard to get, I was seriously questioning the ability of those on this board to see through propaganda ... and apparently you're all a buncha suckers."

Horseshit. That was pure bait and you were disapointed it took as many posts as it did for you to get a chance to climb atop your own soapbox and present your own Propoganda which you see as facts. If you believe the folks that disagree with you sit around twisting their handlebar mustaches and cackling with evil glee over their 'propoganda'... well, scratch that, you do. I imaginbe they think they are just as in the right as you, which is precisely what makes them so dangerous. Moral certainty and Savagery are kissing cousins.

"and they'll believe what they want to in order to support their half baked beliefs"
I assume you're above all that.

"nobody is debating the fact that she died and it was horrible"
Do you think it was horrible? Honestly? Concidering you think she was very nearly a terrorist and you find her writting poetically supports suicide bombing (and I really didn't get that from the passage you quoted. I'm sure there's more, but it is possible to feel for the suffering of Palestinians and imagine it drives them to unforgivable acts. It is possible to imagine that under the same circumstances one might do the same thing without condoning the act.) is her death 'horrible'? I certainly can't get behind doctoring her photo in any way but you seem fairly committed to defaming her character to a bunch of people who far from swallowing propoganda didn't seem to know much of anything about her.

"Next time you see a Rachel Corrie poster, or see her name mentioned, ask yourself who Abigail Litle was... and wonder why nobody cares."

I know who she was, but would never have known there were pictures or the degree to which her death was being manipulated. You manipulate her death to your ends with this very tirade. I personally see her as one more corpse atop a heap, all dead needlessly. If I were a Palestinian I would be ashamed of my people and Angry at the Jews. I'm Jewish and so my feelings are reversed.

Now, since you are obviously eager to tell us all about Abigail Little
why don't you drop your pretenses, start a thread and do so.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 01:04 PM       
Seth "Israel has done some very nasty things to the Palestinians, so resistance is in order."

Sure, and so too have the Palestinians done some nasty things to the Israelis and then defense is in order.. And so? I'd answer you further but you seem to prefer sitting on the safety lines and popping in with some half baked non-arguments.
Otherwise feel free to explain this comment in detail..
"Israel has planted the violent seeds that demand resistance."... Kthanks.

Ranxer - "Isreal has more power and money per capita than almost any nation."
could you substantiate that comment? What's that based on besides your own uneducated bias and admitted assumptions? Again - When you wear a button for an anti-Israel group it will not be percieved as a statement against anti-corporate totalitarianism. Aren't you bright enough to realize that? You still seem to think you were being harassed don't you? You deserved to be scolded, if only for wearing a button representing a group you thought was a different group. Irresponsible activism there buddy. Israel is a socialist based democracy founded on communal living. Even the Israeli Parliment used to follow communal rules in their dining hall. I've said it before, but there were and still are Zionist of every shade .... marxist, communist, etc. IT IS NOT A TOTALITARIAN REGIME. Sharon is not a dictator. He runs a government with Palestinians in the cabinet.


BUrbank - "typifies Palestinians and Jews." Yeah that's what I'm hear for, you dolt. Look you can call it manners, I'll call it coexistance...and I am drastically opposed to anyone who opposes that. Including the ISM. I view Rachel Corrie as a brainwashed pawn in that action...I couldn't tell you much about Abigail Litle because there aren't hundreds of tribute pages devoted to her. She didn't want to be there, yet Corrie was there because she believed that Jews view Palestinian blood as worth less then hers. A horrible accusation the ISM makes every day. Most pro-Israel supporters would love to see this Corrie incident buried (pun intended) but I prefer to confront it head on. Burbank... what was propaganda here? Please qoute me on it. What did I present to you that was propaganda? Specifically.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 01:29 PM       
Labelling the quote you put up as a poetic embrace of suicide bombing. 'Educating' people who didn't even know the incident you were talking about on how evil the people who were using her death were. Pretending to activly seek opinions when all you wanted to do was print a broadside. I think you mayb be a little off on what the word propaganda means.

How do you see co-existence coming about? What concessions do you see being made by either side? Not that I condone violence of any kind against civillians or soldiers, but how will Palestinians without a state or representation attain anything beyond their current miserable existance?
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 02:28 PM       
Well there you go. Perhaps the Palestinians need some proper leadership first. . Then we can talk about concessions. I can give you a whole list of concessions that HAVE been made by Israel, and I have never heard any demand for the same of the Palestinians except to stop the violence and persecute the terrorist crimes. What concessions have the Palestinians offered to make to end this conflict?

Are you aware of the latest plan for Israel to drill gas lines into Gaza so that the Palestinians will be controlling and selling energy to Israel? This is an unconditional agreement to allow Palestinians to earn revenue and create an infrastructure based around something other then killing Jews.

Doesn't that go against what the ISM teach their voulenteers? In ISM lingo there are no "seperation fences or security zones" there are only "apartheid fences". Yet, there is NO racial segragation in Israel, NONE. ISM are trained in 100 years of Mid East history in one hour. They are instructed to only refer to the Israeli Defense Force as the Israeli Occupation Force. Then they stand in the line of fire with the assumption that Israelis view their blood as being worth more then an Arabs... and they're getting hurt...and they shouldn't be there... they shouldn't muddle up the conflict anymore then it already is.... it's not constructive, and neither is leftists who barely understand the situation glamorizing what they do.

As for rationalizing suicide bombings... a lot of you do it...and you're a bunch of filthy sick fucks for it. It's no better then saying "the IDF are so frusterated they can't help but let off a few rounds on little kids, they have no other choice". Which is what a lot of you idiots THINK supporters of Israel are doing.... but read a moderate pro-Israel page and you'll see a lot of remorse, and a lot of regret that IDF troops are put into positions where people are getting killed in a way that is unintentional. Nobody wakes up, walks to the west bank and plans to shoot a kid in the head that day.... suicide bombings ARE premeditated, often with financial kickbacks to the family, subsidized by "community groups" that teach children an act of murder and suicide. NO RATIONALIZATION of that is okay. None.
It's not brave, and it's NOT soulfull.


p.s.. Maybe Palestinians upset YOU because you're Jewish, but the reason they upset me has nothing to do with my religion and everything to do with their actions.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 02:47 PM       
"p.s.. Maybe Palestinians upset YOU because you're Jewish, but the reason they upset me has nothing to do with my religion and everything to do with their actions."

Well, bully for you. I'm sure, as your subtext often implies, you are a righteous person in posession of truth. I am capable of being revolted by terrorism AND feeling that Jews should find occupation Anethema.

"As for rationalizing suicide bombings... a lot of you do it...and you're a bunch of filthy sick fucks for it."

Do you mean posters at I-mock, or are you referring to some more vague phantom enemy? I think you see that rationalization where often it doesn't exist because it makes the person who disagrees with you a 'filthy, sick fuck.'

"I have never heard any demand for the same of the Palestinians except to stop the violence and persecute the terrorist crimes."

How about conceding to being occupied or conceding to settlements on what they think of as their land? They haven't been asked to concede to anything.

"Perhaps the Palestinians need some proper leadership first"

Perhaps 'regime change' will be a part of the US. 'Roadmap'. Then we can set up a a democratic government and lovely relations with Israel will ensue. I loathe Arafat, I know next to nothing about the new PM, but I do know that it's a loosing game to try to determine what constitutes 'proper' leadership for other people. I think it's a garantee for an endless war of attrition.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 03:02 PM       
It's not occupation when Palestinians walk the streets free with the right to vote, and earn wages, and exist as happy citizens of Israel. The Palestinian Authority are an autonomos governing body, so perhaps they are "occupying" the Palestinians land. Israel's checkpoints and tactical maneuvers are actions as part of an on going war between the two sides and various neighboring ccountrys. Unless by occupation you just mean land owned by Jews that should be ethnically cleansed. Is that what you're arguing for?

If you've hard of the Fatah party then you know who the new PM is. All this "fueding" between him and Arafat is show for the media. He's been his right hand man for decades.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 03:30 PM       
I was unaware Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza strip were allowed to claim Israeli citizenship.

It's also hard to earn wages during dusk to dawn curfews.

And Black South Africans under apartheid had ample access to employment.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 04:12 PM       
Anyone living on land under Israeli jurisdiction can in theory become a citizen if they chose. Many have.

More then ample access to employment then can vote, own land, own business, run for government office, hold positions in Parliment to fight for more rights, speak their mind freely, have rights regardless of sexual preference and gender....and if this isn't enough for them, they can take citizenship in Jordan, or the other 98% of the Mid-east where Jews can not.

(In addition, they were alloted territory to create their own infrastructure for an independent state, and provided with the training and guns to hold jurisdiction over the land. They were also at one pointawarded a portion of tax money, (israel has the highest taxation of most any nation. close to 50% of the Israelis wage. a typical yearly income is only $18,000 there) , access to Israel's coveted water supply, and a money making Casino. The PA abused and mismanaged these oppurtunities by turning their energies towards organizing further uprisings instead)

To label Israel an Apartheid state belittles the struggle of the Black South Africans who were not afforded these same oppurtunities. Internationals who view the mid-east conflict as apartheid would best serve the peace process by staying put and taking a class in the subject instead.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 04:24 PM       
What is the process for a Palestinian living in the west bank to become an Israeli citizen. I'm not denying the possability, It's just new to me, so I'm asking. Because if it's that easy, I'm shocked that Palestinians haven't simply changed Israel from within. Perhaps they don't want to become Israeli citizens because they are Palestinians and feel becoming Israelis would signify a loss of identity.

A Palestinian can acquire Jordanian citizenship by leaving their home. While Israeli's cannot emigrate to Jordan and lobby for citizenship, there are many countries they can emigrate to. Citizenship is not gauranteed, but I don't really see a great deal of difficulty in an Israeli attaing American citizenship, if they are willing to abandon their home.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2003, 06:32 PM       
Yes, and Palestinians come to America all the time too. Not as conveniant to visit your family as it is when you live in Jordan though is it?

The West Bank is under PA jurisdiction for the most part so they would have to move out of those territories now. It's not an easy process to become a legal citizen of Israel (even Americans have a tough time) but it used to be....and there was a time when Israel even paid reparations to Arabs that filed claims. The reason you don't see more of them doing it is because they refuse to acknowledge the existance of an Israel.... if it was about identity then why is it the typical Arab you met near Israel used to call themselves Jordanian? This was a loooong time before Jordan granted them the right of return. It's one of the reasons pro-Israel supporters often do not believe the Arabs in the territories have peace in mind at all. When they had the chance to live in peace and coexist they turned it down. Arabic Jews also faced some discrimination, but over time they've found a lot of clout within what is a fairly young democracy. The "change from the inside" theory is what right of return is about... only it's a less subtle version and claims that ALL Arabs have the right to move to Israel. The "right" means you can't legally turn them away. It will never happen, ever. Meanwhile, there was a Palestinian candidate for the position of Haifa's mayor job, and he lost to an Israeli who the Arab's out there seem to love...or at least respect.
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