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The_Rorschach The_Rorschach is offline
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Old Apr 30th, 2003, 08:51 PM        Israel; Friend. . .or Foe?
I have a bit I want to say on this, but I don't want to colour responces, so I am going to wait a bit.

Israeli Technology Transfers to China and India: A Short Assessment

(Source: Frost & Sullivan; issued April 28, 2003)


It has long been speculated and not that often admitted by all parties involved that sensitive US technologies have found their way to the PRC courtesy of the Israeli aerospace & defense industry.

If Chinese and US relations are to be the foundation of international diplomacy & stability in the 21st century, it is also important for the US that China does not acquire advanced technologies that could confer advantages over its regional neighbors, particularly Taiwan. However, Israel has long been a
supplier of such technology to China.

Such transfers of sensitive technologies have begun to materialize into concrete and advanced weapons programs that have already moderately improved the PRC's overall capabilities. The next 15 to 20 years will witness the emergence of China as a very capable regional military power. This will lead to an arms race with Japan and India primarily, the two other dominant powers in that part of the world.

However, China is a long way from being able to challenge the US, perhaps 25 years, and still suffers from:

--Lack of competition between defense companies, no emphasis on "best product"
--With a few exceptions, technology integration is inconsistent
--Poor quality control
--Lengthy weapons development cycles (15 years average)
--Procurement cycles lacking forces integration in mind
--Dependence on reverse engineering or foreign technology transfers
--Disparity of equipment sources difficult to integrate together
--Logistical deficiencies
--Doctrinal and operational challenges

The close defense relationship between Israel and China dates back to the mid-1980s. The Israeli MoD has several times acknowledged collaborative work with China in several areas, including the manufacture of next generation fighter aircraft. The former U.S Secretary of Defense William Perry once confronted Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin about these technology transfer issues but
Israel does not seem to have fully complied with US requests so far. US intelligence agencies have also expressed concerns about the closeness existing between Israeli and Chinese defense industries, and the possible threat that this could pose to the Asian military balance.

Israel: what and when?

The United States and Israel have developed a very close and lucrative partnership for the past 40 years. The Israeli air force is almost entirely equipped with US fighter aircraft and has very early on demonstrated the superiority of US systems in the many conflicts it has been fighting against its Arab opponents.

One of the key programs undertaken by the Israeli industry in the 1980s was the IAI Lavi, an impressive fighter program built as a future replacement to the IAF A-4s, F-4s and Kfir C-2s. However, Lavi did not go anywhere; under pressure from the US, which viewed Lavi more and more as a direct market competitor to the F-16C and F-18C, coupled with budget difficulties and a recession, Israel decided to cancel the promising program in 1987.

Systems that might have been transferred partly or in full from the Lavi to the J-10 program in the 1990s include:

--Elta/Elisra EW System: Possible transfer to J-10, lack of data
--Lear Siegler/MBT Flight Control System: Unknown
--Elta EL/M-2035 Multi-Mode Pulse Doppler Radar (or EL/M-2032 derivative):
Transferred to China's J-10 and JH-7 programs.
--Elta ARC-740 UHF radio system: Unknown
--IAI Tamam INS (Inertial navigation system): Transferred
--Elbit SMS-86 Stores Management System: Unknown
--Rafael Python 3: One of the most advanced AA missile in the world: exported to China
--IAI Gabriel IIIAS (ASM): Likely exported; Chinese version rumored to equip the Xian Aircraft JH-7

The Chengdu J-10 might be in production now; non-verifiable information estimates that as many as ten J-10 have been built for test and pre-operational development program. This phase of the program was completed last year. Production versions should be declared operational as early as 2004.

Phalcon AEW: China and India both get a vote of no confidence from the US

More recently, the US has demanded that Israel cancel the sale of the AEW Phalcon EL/M-2075 systems and plane to China. The Clinton administration categorically refused that its sophisticated D-Band C-array radar, developed by Elta be sold to the PRC. Most of the technology developed for the Phalcon had been approved and financed by the US Congress.

The Chinese acquisition of an AEW capability would significantly help the PLAAF in a possible engagement against Taiwan. Apart from the J-10, weapons systems, radar systems and other advisory role played by the Israel aerospace industry, the Chinese have recently demonstrated a growing interest in UAV systems. They possibly have acquired several systems from Israel and are working on their own long range/endurance ISR platform.

India, China's other rival in the region, has also expressed the wish to acquire Phalcon systems from Israel. However, this could have serious destabilizing effects, as it would certainly enhance the IAF capabilities against the Pakistani air force. The US veto is not final but it is very likely at this moment. India has attempted unsuccessfully to build its own indigenous AEW, with catastrophic results when the program was decapitated after the testbed HS-748 crashed during one of its test flights. India has also acquired several UAV systems from Israel, using them in various combat operations against Pakistan in the Karghil and more recently last year.

Israeli technology transfers to China have greatly enhanced the capabilities of the Chinese industry and have saved Chinese bureaus millions of R&D man-hours.

However, Israel is not alone, Russia and France in particular, as well as the US, have exported technology to China that may have found its way to military applications. China's main problems still resides in its inability to integrate and utilize such technologies as part of integrated concepts of operations; J-10, J-11 and J-12 might represent a major step forward for the PLAAF but using these aircraft based on Mig-21 operations will not produce significant results in the battlespace environment.

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ranxer ranxer is offline
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Old May 1st, 2003, 11:20 AM       
agh, this shows a bit of the isreali position some of us see.


Israel had foreknowledge of 9/11 – that was Carl Cameron's explosive contention, made last year in a blockbuster series of reports on Fox News exposing an Israeli spy ring in the U.S. New evidence confirms his story – and points to a rather ominous conclusion….

Reporting the round-up and deportation of scores of Israeli agents – masquerading as "art students" – Cameron noted last December that several were "active Israeli military" and the rest had skills that one normally associates with spies: electronic interception, explosives, and special operations. Several failed polygraph tests when asked if they were engaged in "surveillance activities against and in the United States." Aside from trying to penetrate U.S. government facilities, this network, which went into high gear in the months prior to 9/11, was also watching the Al Qaeda terrorists, according to Cameron:

"There is no indication that the Israelis were involved in the 9-11 attacks, but investigators suspect that the Israelis may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance, and not shared it. A highly placed investigator said there are – quote – 'tie-ins.' But when asked for details, he flatly refused to describe them, saying, – quote – 'evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information.'"

This was denied up and down by the U.S. and Israeli governments, and the story was derided as an "urban myth," denounced as an "anti-Semitic" canard, and subsequently banished from the pages of the "mainstream" media. But evidence began to pile up: reports of hundreds of Israelis descending on U.S. government facilities, and a massive round-up of these operatives claiming to be "art students," began to leak out.

The story refused to die. A secret government report (originating with the Drug Enforcement Agency) detailing the highly suspicious activities of these aspiring Israeli "artists" was subsequently uncovered, and a series of stories appeared in the international media: Le Monde, the British media, and then leaping across the Atlantic. An excellent article in Salon, by Christopher Ketcham, and wire stories detailing the leaked contents of the DEA report raised awareness of a possible Israeli connection to the events surrounding 9/11.

I've been covering this since November of last year, when I noticed a story in the Washington Post reporting the detention of some 60 Israelis under the same legal rubric as the Arabs being held on suspicion of terrorist connections. These guys, said the Justice Department lawyers, were of "special interest" to the government; and, as their role in the events leading up to 9/11 begins to come into clearer focus, I can see why…..

A report in Die Zeit, a German newspaper, outlining the glitches and outright obstructionism that led to the greatest intelligence failure in our history reveals a stunning bit of information. The BBC reports:

"The paper has uncovered details of a major Israeli spy ring involving some a 120 agents for the intelligence service Mossad operating across America and some masquerading as arts students."

The Israeli "art student" story has come a long way since the days when it could be airily dismissed: the whitewashers have been forced back to their second line of defense, which is admitting that, yes, there was an Israeli spy ring in the U.S., but they had no foreknowledge of 9/11. That was the conclusion reached by a recent article in the Forward, as well as an ABC News report, "The White Van." But the latest revelation goes further:

"The ring was reportedly hard on the heels of at least four members of the hijack gang, including its leader Mohammed Atta."

The whitewashers, it seems, have retreated to their third line of defense, as iterated by the BBC:

"But the Israeli agents were detected by their American counterparts and thrown out of the country, it says. The US authorities said then that they were students whose visas had expired.

"Just a month before the deadly attacks, the paper said, Mossad handed over to the Americans a detailed report naming several suspects they believe were preparing an attack on the United States."

So the Mossad has an alibi, after all. Or maybe not. For, according to these same reports, including one in Der Spiegel:

"An entire troop of Israeli terror investigators disguised as students took to the tracks of Arabic terrorists and their cells in the USA between December 2000 and April 2001. During their undercover investigations, the Israelis came very close to the later perpetrators of September 11. In Hollywood, Florida they located both of the former Hamburg students and later terrorist pilots Mohammed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi as potential terrorists. Agents settled down in immediate proximity of their apartment and observed the seemingly normal flight school students around the clock."

So they were living next door to the terrorists, including the leader of the 9/11 hijackers, watching their every move – but didn't tell us what they were up to until August, 2001.

The list turned over to the FBI by the Israelis apparently contained the names of at least four of the nineteen hijackers, but the warning was non-specific: only that these were potential terrorists. It stretches the bounds of credulity to believe that, after observing them up close for an extended period of time – and perhaps monitoring them in other ways – the Israelis knew no more than this...snip> http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j100402.html

sorry this is old.. i'd heard this stuff from other sources.. some of which have fallen off the interenet.
the neo-capitalists believe in privatizing profits and socializing losses
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Abcdxxxx Abcdxxxx is offline
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Old May 2nd, 2003, 01:50 AM       
Ranxer - those acussations were retracted by Fox, and most of the information in your post has been disproven.

Ror - I didn't finish reading your post in detail, but that type of information is pretty common knowledge on the pro-israel sites. With pressures from the US and the EU to negotiate, Israel has taken to develop relations with India, China, and Argetinia. Now I'm not sure I totally get the China thing, but there is a business relationship... and China was one of the few places that issued visas to Jews during the Holocaust, plus the Israeli Zionist movement was tied into the communist party a little...not that I'm totally sure that has anything to do with it.

Every nation fucks every nation...that's just how it works...France selling weapons and intelligence to Saddam is an example. As it stands now, the US has been double dealing on Israel under the guise of a peace process ... and there is a history of the US getting involved in ways that haven't always been so constructive (which is evident by how convoluted the situation remains). Israel has began to look for new partnerships to insure it's survival.
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