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  #76  
Abcdxxxx Abcdxxxx is offline
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Old Feb 3rd, 2006, 10:17 AM       
By "IDF Brass" do you mean the military leadership itself, or the PM of Defense and the Knesset itself? Israelis are inherently cocky. It's part of the persona. If they didn't want peace, there are easier ways to go about war. For all they've been accused of (Nazism, racial oppression, apharthaid, genocide, etc.) it's obvious there is a true desire for peace.

My main concern is that you're applying your belief that all nations are trouble, and all states indulge in forms of racial oppression, to one tiny nation which is often made to be the scapegoat. It's not that the pro-Israel contingent doesn't see mistakes, or flaws in the execution of Israel's young democracy - it's just that we can't speak to those issues without it being interpreted as a concession to all the libels, and disinformation. As in "Aha, see the IDF *is* excessive! We told you!". I can appreciate humor and satire, but unless the joke is responding like an uninformed parrot with a simplistic view of the the situation, I see no reason not to respond as if you're sincere.

Regarding 1967 - it wasn't a landmark year for Israel, truthfully. The borders were never defined, and Israel was attacked again 6 years later on Yom Kippur. The situation really is worse then in 1967 though... as I've said before, there sure were millions of Palestinians salivating right on the green line , or terrorist armies out in the open, back then. A good argument could be made that things have improved for the Palestinians, both in terms of furthering the mythology of their identity, to even the quality of life they experience, even living in a harsh warzone. They have self rule, and full autonomy for the first time in modern history. Sadly, being Palestinian has become all about war with the Jewish State....even if they manage to drive all the Jews in the ocean, what are they left with?
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Old Feb 3rd, 2006, 11:01 AM       
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Originally Posted by ziggytrix
And if you can't get past the i-mockery induced sarcasm that tends to seep from my posts or if you just honestly think I'm bringing nothing to this discussion, please don't bother to reply, as I can think of a million more productive ways to spend my time than trying to have a serious discussion with you on a fucking internet forum attached to a humor website.
I was trying to console myself with the fact that he can't be as serious as he tries to come off as if he registered at these boards for the same reason that the rest of us did, because it's against human nature to be that incredibly concrete-headed and thick.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2006, 11:25 AM       
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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx
By "IDF Brass" do you mean the military leadership itself, or the PM of Defense and the Knesset itself?
I think it was Shaul Mofaz who really rubbed me the wrong way in that recording. But then again, if I were a military man in his shoes, I'd probably think I was wasting my time talking to people my intelligence agency identified as two-faced terrorists.

Quote:
My main concern is that you're applying your belief that all nations are trouble, and all states indulge in forms of racial oppression, to one tiny nation which is often made to be the scapegoat.
But I don't mean to make Israel the scapegoat. I don't want ANY scapegoat. I want to see honest, accountable acceptance of whatever degree of fault from BOTH sides and, more importantly, progress toward a peaceful, equitable solution. I don't know how true it is that "being Palestinian has become all about war with the Jewish State" but I hope you're incorrect, and that there is something else to it, though if you are correct, then violent border and indentity disputes are another example of inherent flaws of nationalism.

I almost hate to ask this, but in referring to "the mythology" of the Palestinian identity, are you saying you believe those people who call themselves Palestinians don't have the right to a state? Or even the right to a Palestinian identity? Or am I reading too much into your choice of that word?
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Old Feb 3rd, 2006, 05:20 PM       
Do you really in your heart believe that there are "two wrongs for every fault"...or that we can't look at history and see that there is a value to ascribing who is a victim, without blame? As I've said, Israel's existance, and having Jewish neighbors was the original provocation. The way Israel, and Jews have responded is all relative to that.


There were Palestinian Arabs, just like there were Palestinian Jews. It wasn't an identity, nor was there a seperate tribal identity from those Arabs who went on to form Jordan. So when I say mythology, I'm talking about a post-PLO concept of a Palestinian. A great deal of Arabs involved in the Palestinian cause aren't related to the original 600,000 (or whatever number you want to use) at all. Do the math. Israel has 1million Arabs....more then half of Jordan's population are Palestinian...there are Palestinians in the EU, US, and elsewhere.... how the hell do you end up with 3 million in Gaza alone ?! The PA leadership is mostly Egyptian. I don't mean Palestinians raised in Egypt, I mean outright Egyptians, who started within Egyptian nationalist organizations before adopting the Palestinian angle. The cliche answer is to question if Palestinians have their own distinct style of food, song, dance, etc. The idea of Palestinian refugee camps is ambigious, and misleading as well. Even taking the name Palestine, and claiming it as their own is wrapped in mythology. So there's a great deal of mythology involved. That said, identity politics really come down to "hey if you want to call yourself a Palestinian and say you're a seperate people, then fiiiiiine". It's no coincidence that some of the first self declared Palestinian Historians were Literature, and Linguistics professors.

Do I believe they have a right to a State? I believe Jordan was meant to be their State, as part of the "two states for two people" concept. I 'm fine with the idea of a 2nd Palestinian State in Gaza, and a portion of the WB, but I know that's not going to satisfy their nationalist goals. The map used in PA schools shows the entirety of Israel labeled green for Palestinian. I also think that with plenty of Arab owned land for them, the draw to Israel isn't real estate. They're not looking for equal rights, they're looking to replace Israel's rights. Their refusal to live next door to Jews is my biggest concern.... and I think it's unlikely that some American college kids will be using Marxist texts to argue my right to return to Iraq and evict all the Arabs there, any time soon. It would be pretty ridiculous if they did, don't you think?
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Old Feb 6th, 2006, 09:48 PM       
Grit Your Teeth, Embrace Arab Democracy
Four reasons why there is no going back
Michael Young

Almost as soon as Hamas had won a majority in Palestinian legislative elections last week, politicians and publicists began spinning the results to buttress their agendas on Middle Eastern democracy. Not surprisingly, the arguments tended to gravitate toward absolutes, though much about regional democratization forestalls this. What works in one society may be a calamity in another; what an election victory shows about a group's popularity may have nothing to do with that group's criminal behavior. Democracy will continue to be cacophonous because that is its nature, and the nature of the Arab societies in which it is supposed to take root.

Take the two broad arguments greeting the Hamas victory. One side argues it was generally a good thing, because Palestinians had managed a peaceful transition of authority, permitting voters to settle their scores with a corrupt Fatah movement that had led the Palestinian Authority into chaos. Palestinians did not really vote in an Islamic state, this narrative continues, but sought an alternative to the despair of the moment. That's why Hamas' greatest challenge will be to satisfy the public's expectations for an amelioration of socio-economic conditions, making less likely a resort to violence. Deep down, advocates of this line suggest, Hamas is pragmatic and will accept a settlement with Israel along the 1967 borders, if East Jerusalem is made the capital of Palestine.

The other side retorts that such optimism is ludicrous. Hamas may have been ambiguous during the election campaign, but never renounced its objective to regain control over the whole of geographic Palestine, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean. It did not delete from its charter the aspiration to destroy Israel, even though it recently saw a tactical advantage in not highlighting this. Elections were a mistake, proponents of this line of reasoning continue, because Hamas is much stronger and now has a national platform to pursue its destructive policies. At a wider level, the fetish of democracy has thus been proven detrimental, because true democracy has no business bringing to power fundamentally undemocratic, indeed terrorist, groups.

It's difficult in Hamas' case to agree with one of the sides while ignoring the protests of the other. The movement is hardly a bearded version of, let's say, the Christian Democrats (indeed it's not even a bearded version of Fatah), and violence will continue to be at the center of its endeavors. It will not soon renounce its ambition to recapture all of Palestine, because it will not soon reject its deeply held beliefs that Israel is illegitimate, that the Oslo process was a terrible mistake, that Palestinian refugees from 1948 have a right to return to their towns and villages of origin, and that killing Israeli civilians is acceptable because Israelis do the same.

Hamas will surely have to address the day-to-day worries of its countrymen, but that hardly diminishes the fact that the movement feels it can deal with Israel in a far more successful way than the Palestinian Authority (PA) did. This means shaping a different approach than that of PA President Mahmoud Abbas, who sought, but could never deliver, Palestinian disarmament in exchange for Israeli concessions.

But should such realities cast doubt on the need for Middle Eastern societies to embrace democracy, even if Islamists use this to come to power? No, at least not in principle, though there will be many occasions where one's worst doubts are confirmed. Democratization cannot come with illusions: for certain groups it will be an instrument of leverage into positions of leadership, followed by subsequent efforts to empty democracy of its meaning. But that's where societies, but also the international community, must show there is a high price to be paid for reinforcing intolerance.

Why insist on democracy? First, because the stalemate imposed by autocratic Arab regimes, particularly secular regimes, will give at some stage, and may lead to Islamists' seizing authority anyway, without a pluralistic system in place to create social power centers offsetting them. Even in secular states such as Egypt, Syria and Jordan, Islamists have strongly infiltrated the system, so that the despots, eager to buy legitimacy through Islamic credentials, have ceded much by way of secular values. Rather than limiting the ambitions of Islamists, this behavior has only bolstered them. Elections may indeed represent a final stepping stone for Islamists to take power, but a controlled, genuine democratic opening beforehand would allow alternative groups to gain strength.

A second reason making the pursuit of democracy worthwhile is that it instills, at least in some societies, a notion of systematic accountability and transfer of authority. Iraq's Shiites may vote Islamist, but they also have had the opportunity to be asked about their views three times in 2005. It would be very difficult for an autocratic leadership to deny them this prerogative in the future. And with the habit of free elections comes the public's growing aggressiveness in evaluating its leaders.

Even in Iran, a country where elections have kept conservatives in power for two decades, voting is bound to lead to the emergence of more liberal forces once the system has had time to find an equilibrium and judge the merits of the revolutionary generation embodied by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. It may take time, but the mechanism of accountability is there, and was already twice used as a platform of protest against the system when Iranians voted for Mohammad Khatami as president.

A third reason is that democracy imposes transparency. When parties are obligated to clarify their positions to an electorate, they have to live with the consequences. Hamas' haziness on its pursuit of terrorism is disturbing, but the implications are also clear for everyone to see. The movement cannot forever hide its intentions, and voters, but also those pouring billions of dollars into Palestinian society, now have a paper trail to assess. Palestinians, in turn, can determine where their interests lie, and force Hamas in one direction or another.

Finally, there is the march of history. Democracy must reach Arab societies at some stage, after decades of debilitating authoritarianism. The Islamist wave is partly due to the abject failure of secular Arab nationalist states to let their peoples breathe. Denying a process to transcend these circumstances makes no sense. The road will be bumpy, and will be made bumpier by Arab regimes' refusing to ease their societies into a slow process that can absorb the contradictions inherent in democratization. Nor can counterfeit democracy substitute for an authentic opening.

Islamists may well win the first round in many places, and in some they might even try to ensure no second round follows. That's why domestic and foreign democratic barriers preventing this must be enhanced. But simply insisting that Arab states should perpetuate the deadlock of today not only ensures Islamists will gain strength by counter-reaction; it also displays remarkable contempt for the desire of Arabs to be counted.
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mburbank~ Yes, okay, fine, I do know what you meant, but why is it not possible for you to get through a paragraph without making all the words cry?

How can someone who obviously thinks so much of their ideas have so little respect for expressing them? How can someone who so yearns to be taken seriously make so little effort?!
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Old Feb 21st, 2006, 12:54 PM       
Quote:
Hamas Video:
We will drink the blood of the Jews
By Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook - February 14, 2006
http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulle...ew.htm#b140206


The Hamas website this week presented the parting video messages of two Hamas suicide terrorists. One message was for Jews, whose blood Hamas promises to drink until Jews "leave the Muslim countries," and the second to a mother, as she helps dress her son for battle prior to his suicide terror mission.

To view the Hamas' Drink Jew's blood video click here http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Hamas_suicide.asx

Each terrorist had a separate message for Jews. This first said,

"My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah, we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries."

The second terrorist said the following:

"In the name of Allah, we will destroy you, blow you up, take revenge against you, [and] purify the land of you, pigs that have defiled our country... This operation is revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs."

One of the terrorists saw his death as a wedding with the Maidens of Paradise:

"I dedicate this wedding [i.e. death for Allah] to all of those who have chosen Allah as their goal, the Quran as their constitution and the Prophet [Muhammad] as their role model. Jihad is the only way to liberate Palestine - all of Palestine - from the impurity of the Jews."

The message to one of the terrorist's mother was instruction for her to be joyous over his death and his "wedding" with the "Maidens of Paradise."

"My dear mother, you who have cared for me, today I sacrifice my life to be your intercessor [on Judgment Day]. O my love and soul, wipe your tears, don't be saddened. In the name of Allah, I've achieve all that I've aspired. Don't let me see you sad on my wedding day with the Maidens of Paradise. So be happy and not sad, because in the name of Allah, after death is merciful Allah's paradise."

Included in the clip is the farewell scene between the mother and terrorist son while she helps him don his military vest. In the background one can hear the lyrics, "My dear mother, don't cry over us."

To view the Hamas' Drink Jew's blood video click here

Such words are eerily familiar to a music video that ran on Palestinian Authority Television for years, in which a boy asks his parents to be happy over his sought after death. Two lines from the music video ran,

"My beloved, my mother, dearest to me most
Be joyous over my blood and do not cry for me"

Palestinian Media Watch has noted that on numerous occasions, the final messages of Palestinians that went on suicide missions reflected the messages they had been hearing in the Palestinian Authority media. Video can be viewed here. http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Hamas_suicide.asx

After filming their goodbyes, the two Hamas suicide terrorists went to the Karni Crossing and killed an Israeli soldier. The clip includes scenes of preparation of a tunnel, and hiding explosives in the tunnel.

Hamas placed the video on its website in February 2006 - after the Palestinian parliamentary elections. The terrorist act glorified in the video occurred over a year ago, on December 7, 2004.
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Old Feb 22nd, 2006, 02:57 AM       
One more...

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=1

That link is to a Hamas website with an animated graphic of a nuclear bomb blowing up a Jewish star.
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