Arab Unrest; A Call to Arms

[The_Rorschach]

This was sent to me by a friend. I haven't bothered to look into its credability, if you doubt the excerpts and discover they are taken out of context I would appreciate you posting what you find here. If I had the time today, I'd do it myself

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The Palestinian Authority TV broadcast last Friday the sermon delivered by Sheikh Muhammad Abu Al-Hunud in the Khalil Al-Wazir Mosque in Gaza. The following are excerpts:

'Some of the Muslim Leaders Forgot Allah'

"... It looks like some of the Muslim leaders forgot Allah... The power of the infidels does not stem from their weapons and equipment; their power stems from our obedience to them, from the obedience of a number of Muslim and Arab leaders to them, [from the compliance with] their threats, demands, and aggression..."

"Civil wars and calamities afflict the nation in order to distinguish
the faithful, the steadfast and the truthful from the liars, and the
hypocrites who sold themselves in slave markets, sold themselves to the devil and supported the aggression of Allah's enemies..."

"The sons of Iraq are slaughtered, Iraq is bombarded; the sons of Iraq are murdered. [Iraq] is an Arab Muslim country, the cradle of civilization since the dawn of history, the capital of the land of Muslim caliphates. The Iraqi people are crying for help... Where are you, Oh Arabs? Where are you, nation of Islam?... Be free, or die honorably. The sons of the Arab and Muslim nation are murdered, its sons are slaughtered, its homes demolished and the Arabs are standing and watching."

"One of the Arab leaders claims that he opposes the attack on Iraq
while he finances the airplanes of the invading enemy. Another condemns the attack on Iraq while the attackers use bases on his own soil to attack Iraq. A third Arab sister [country] openly declares its enmity towards America, but behind closed doors holds meetings and strikes deals [with the Americans]. A fourth opens its ports and airports to enemy ships and airplanes. Is this Islam? Is this the religion?!"

'The Aggression Against Iraq is an Assault on Islam'

"The aggression against Iraq is an assault on international laws and on religious edicts. The aggression against Iraq is an aggression against humanity, against values and principles. The aggression against Iraq is an assault on Islam, the Koran and the message of Muhammad... If, God forbid, something happens to Iraq, the aggression and the Crusade will turn tomorrow against the Koran. Prior to the attack on Iraq, Allah's enemy and the enemy of His Prophet... called to change the religious education systems in the Arab and Islamic countries. Today, God forbid, his second assault is on the Koran, [he wants] to change verses and to mess with Allah's book, to Americanize the region, Americanize the religion, Americanize the Koran, Americanize Muhammad's message."

"What are you going to do, oh millions of Arabs, oh Arab leaders? What are you going to do in light of this tyranny and this aggression? These bullets that are being fired today on the Muslim people of Iraq will be fired tomorrow on your chests and the chests of your peoples."

'To the Iraqi People: Strike With It The Enemies of Humanity, And Let Them Realize That Iraq's Soil is A Fire Land... And That They Will Drown In Its Waters'

"To my brothers in Iraq, to the President of Iraq, to the Iraqi
leadership, to the Iraqi people, the Iraqi clans, the glorious women of Iraq, we say: 'Strike, my brother; may your right arm, oh proud Iraq, be strong. If your arm gets weary, [lift it] and strike Allah's enemies with it. Strike with it the enemies of humanity, and let them realize that Iraq's soil is a fire land [for them], and that they will drown in its waters. The Iraqi soil repels this aggressor, the Iraqi soil curses him when he steps on it, and the Iraqi people spit in his face...'"

"Trustworthy [Islamic] clerics, from East and West... came up with
proofs from the Koran and the Sunna, and announced them from the pulpits of Al-Azhar and other mosques around the world, that any Muslim who does not stand by Iraq and support it against the American-British-Crusaders cruel attack is a traitor to his religion, traitor to his nation, traitor to his motherland, and traitor to his Arabism. Aren't you listening? Did you plug your ears and blinded your eyes? What happened to you? What is the meaning of this shame?!!"

'Allah, make [American and British] Children Orphans and Their Women Widows'

"My brothers in Islam, my brothers in Arabism, the Prophet said:
'Behold the Arabs from an approaching evil.' This is the approaching evil. If the Arabs do not wake up and do not return to Allah - [and] those among our leaders who sold themselves, and I am not saying all of them - [should know] that what is happening in Iraq is not far from them. Jobs do not last forever, seats do not last forever, death will be their lot..."

"Allah, grant victory to the Iraqi army..."

"Allah, defeat America and its allies..."

"Allah, purify the Islamic soil from the American and British treason
and defilement..."

"Allah, make their possessions a booty for the Muslims, Allah,
annihilate them and their weapons, Allah, make their children orphans and their women widows..." (1)

Endnote:
(1) Palestinian Authority Television (Gaza), March 28, 2003.

[sspadowsky]

We're giving bin Laden exactly what he wanted.
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GAY BAREBACK

[ItalianStereotype]

no, no, not so much.

do you think the arab clerics wouldnt say something like this if werent invading? of course they would.

[AntiMaster]

Originally Posted by ItalianStereotype

no, no, not so much.

do you think the arab clerics wouldnt say something like this if werent invading? of course they would.

I'll say it again, look at history prior to the Gulf war. Mulsim Terrorists attacking the west is a by product. This bullshit about how all arabs are against the Americans because of our infidel lifestyles is a way to distract from our own faults in causing or helping cause a fundamentalist Islamic movement & Jihad. Just a little research is all it takes.

[sspadowsky]

We're pissing off the entire Muslim world, which, in my mind, already dislikes us quite enough. The tactics of the Bush Administration are only exacerbating the problem. That's a fact, Jack.
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Paxil settlement

[The_Rorschach]

There's no disputing that Sspad, but I think what Italian was refering you to, was whom you were giving the credit. Not even Bin Laden could possible have understood the deeply rooted idiocy of Bush and planned this domino affect accordingly.

Furthermore, he's right in that the speech is nothing new. We've heard anti-west rhetoric coming out of the ME since the mid seventies, and suffered terrorist attacks since then (Think back to why Reagan got elected in 1980).

[Abcdxxxx]

Yeah because all Muslims sit and have the same perception of the world and Imperialism as you do right? Get a grip. Those type of speeches are given on a weekly basis all through the Arab world, and they're not motivated by the actions of America. Our dealing in that area certainly make us susceptable to such criticism, and kind of put us in their line of fire.... but if "all it takes is a little research" then go on and find a period in Islamic history when some cleric wasn't giving some form of that speech. Subsitute the word "America" and that's all phrasings as old as the Kuran. The concept of resisting "infidels" is key to their religious enlightenment. It wouldn't matter what we did, and it doesn't matter what we do.... these calls for a holy war were not created as a result of American imperialism. The way your western eyes view "victimization" or "power" isn't the same in that culture...and isn't it a form of intellectual imperialism for us to apply our outlook on politics towards an ancient civilization and pretend our empathy even relates????? This is what Bin Laden wanted...and it's what clerics have been wanting for yearrrrrs. It's nothing new. We're not engaging in a Holy War, we're engaging in a war because of corrupt politics and human rights issues. Another thing Bin Laden wanted... dissent, and a civil war within the United States...and we're much closer to that then any Holy War.

[sspadowsky]

OK, look...... I'm not saying that this is expressly what bin Laden set out to do with Al-Qaeda's actions...... I'm saying that he wants the Muslim world united against the West. That IS what he wants. And our leaders' idiotic policies are helping that to come to fruition.
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Masturbation video

[AntiMaster]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Yeah because all Muslims sit and have the same perception of the world and Imperialism as you do right? Get a grip. Those type of speeches are given on a weekly basis all through the Arab world, and they're not motivated by the actions of America. Our dealing in that area certainly make us susceptable to such criticism, and kind of put us in their line of fire.... but if "all it takes is a little research" then go on and find a period in Islamic history when some cleric wasn't giving some form of that speech. Subsitute the word "America" and that's all phrasings as old as the Kuran. The concept of resisting "infidels" is key to their religious enlightenment. It wouldn't matter what we did, and it doesn't matter what we do.... these calls for a holy war were not created as a result of American imperialism. The way your western eyes view "victimization" or "power" isn't the same in that culture...and isn't it a form of intellectual imperialism for us to apply our outlook on politics towards an ancient civilization and pretend our empathy even relates????? This is what Bin Laden wanted...and it's what clerics have been wanting for yearrrrrs. It's nothing new. We're not engaging in a Holy War, we're engaging in a war because of corrupt politics and human rights issues. Another thing Bin Laden wanted... dissent, and a civil war within the United States...and we're much closer to that then any Holy War.

All Religious movements have potential for fanatical behavior. The Christians have displayed such behavior as well muslims. All that we've done this time around is fuel the muslims fanatics' engine. We've at times when it suited our needs supported & some argue created, the clerics & dictators that were just waiting to get into power. I agree w/you that Bin Laden probably wants a divide within our nation but just check out this administration. I cant help wanting to laugh & cry at the same time.

I also notice how we avoid any responsibility for our actions. Come on man, one cannot manipulate other cultures/societies for one's personal gains (mostly oil) without making some enemies. The pro war movement is acting so self righteous just as the president has since the very beginning of his term.

B.T.W. it does take only a little research to see that the western world has only come under muslim terrorist attack in recent times (last 20 years) . My question is why now?

[Abcdxxxx]

No, the question is why are you only concerned with Islamic fundamentalism during the past 20 years? It's not a new trend created by the actions of our shitty government. That motivated YOUR dissent and disatisfaction in the United States not theirs. How have we messed with their culture??? They love America. They love TV and shopping malls...and they love that they can take advantage of it and still beat their women. My brother, my enemy is what it's all about. It doesn't even have anything to do with religion or religous extremism. Yes the seeds of a Holy War notion come from that, but it's not built out of religious fervor... it's built out of a reverse sense of Imperialism. A stubborn refusal to accept anothers existance...not just a way of life. Sure we want to say "hey all people are beautifull" and be p.c. about it...but you're talking about a culture that IS NOT p.c. at all. They're lost in thousands of years of tribal fighting, and various bickerings that are so inbedded within that culture, that it's no longer even religious. The Arab world doesn't take Bin Laden any more seriously then they take Bush... but they will play along...and if they see weakness they will challenge it...especially a false sense of power like America has... you see they're not really threatened or offended by our actions at all... it's like having a superiority complex... but they're living under totalitarian regimes that are so weak in their own right, they must find a common enemy (israel? united states? another arab league nation?) to create a divergence. Do we play into this? Sure. Still... the only way you can say we're responsible for that Holy War talk is if you're ignorant of history or view Bush as a Christian leader first, and an American leader second.

I realize some of what I'm saying might not gell with Western sensibilities, but I keep trying to rephrase this because it's so key. It's a bit like when American business men in the 80's would learn the Japanese traditions in order to do proper business in Tokyo.

[Abcdxxxx]

Oh and yea...anyone who really thinks the Western World was exempt from terrorist attacks prior to 1980 shouldn't even be having this conversation.

[AntiMaster]

Look, I find your ideas to be particularly interesting & can agree with some of what you say but ...

How have we messed with their culture???

Correct me if I'm wrong but who supported the creation of states such as: Kuwait, Israel, .... & why do we support middle east conflicts such as the Iran/Iraq war in the 80's? Why do we have troops stationed in Saudi Arabia? What role did we play the placement of the Shah of Iran & his exile?

the only way you can say we're responsible for that Holy War talk is if you're ignorant of history or view Bush as a Christian leader first, and an American leader second.

I dont believe that we are responsible for the holy war. We, along w/a few other European nations are providing the fuel.

Do you think that it is inherently built into the muslim culture & society to create & thrive on adversity or instability?

[AntiMaster]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

they must find a common enemy (israel? united states? another arab league nation?) to create a divergence.

Doesnt that pretty much describe human nature? Isnt that what we did with the cold war & the common enemy (Communism & USSR)? Isnt that what the current admin is doing with the war on terrorism? Isnt that what the republicans & Democats do when they attack each other so fundamentally?

Someone said that if extraterrestials attacked the earth they would finally bring unity amongst the humans since we'd find a common enemy in the aliens.

[kellychaos]

Wow! An argument with good point->counterpoint discussion which hasn't turned into an "Insult Fest". I credit that to Ronnie not being part of the equation. Please continue ...

P.S. Oops! Did I ruin it?

[Abcdxxxx]

I think adversity is a major theme in ALL religions....or forget religions...it's a major theme in all cultures, becuase even atheists subscribe to some societal and moral code...be it aesops fables, universal transcendental inner strife or some political idealogy. The Kuran is full of tales about adversity. So is the Old Testament. It depends on how the stuff is taught. Have the Arab nations been full of instability ? Obviously. We can blame the Muslim scriptures for this about as much as we can blame the warm climates or a number of other cultural aspects associated with Arab nations.... it's all relevant.

Look America has involved itself in world affairs and worked in their best interest much the way China, Russia, Britain, etc. have done the same. Did America CREATE the situations you listed above?.... Or did they just effect the outcome.

[Abcdxxxx]

"Doesnt that pretty much describe human nature? "

Of course. I wasn't suggesting this was a unique mindset, and it certainly isn't the substance of what I'm saying... BUT .... when speaking of Arabic culture exclusively, there is a unique mindset in regards to the perception of weakness, and respect along with honor. You see, worse then putting in a puppet government or occupying their land would be to do so and show weakness. Their concept of partnership is not a western one either.

[AntiMaster]

Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

"Doesnt that pretty much describe human nature? "

Of course. I wasn't suggesting this was a unique mindset, and it certainly isn't the substance of what I'm saying... BUT .... when speaking of Arabic culture exclusively, there is a unique mindset in regards to the perception of weakness, and respect along with honor. You see, worse then putting in a puppet government or occupying their land would be to do so and show weakness. Their concept of partnership is not a western one either.

Interesting take. I'll have to think about it. Does anyone else have any counter points?

[theapportioner]

A useless dichotomizing and polarizing of us versus Arabs, cultural generalizations that masquerade as analysis -- a lazy and dangerous way of thinking that makes things worse for everyone. That's my counter.

[Abcdxxxx]

I think your counter is dangerous and useless, so there.

Who is "us" in the "us vs. them" scenario? Have you spent time in the middle east apportioner?

It's this rejection of cultures or cultural differences that creates the very lack of respect i'm speaking of....one that is FAR WORSE then physical Imperialism. Of course, if someone takes your wallet...you want it back...that's human.... but to reject the concept that people raised within different traditions from yours might apply a different logical reasoning or emotions behind why they want their wallet back, is in a sense why Arabs feel disrespected. Rejecting anothers customs for the sake of being politcally correct isn't going to help... nor will it help you understand what's going on. There most certainly is a Westernized mindset...not a single idealogy, but we do approach things with a certain commonality don't we? Even in the way we disagree.

[theapportioner]

I don't reject cultures, or cultural differences. I don't deny that very many people believe that these polarizations exist. What I object to, and reject, is the assumption of intra-cultural homogeneity and stasis that goes into such generalizations. Saying Arabs are like this or that is just like someone in Iraq saying that Westerners are culturally depraved. Saying that those who support the war are racist rednecks, or that those who oppose the war are anti-American communists.

Differences, and similarities, are largely what you make of them. In America, Protestant versus Irish and Italian Catholic quickly became White versus Black. Now, it's Western versus Islamic. Same shit. Many American assume (and I doubt you do) that terrorists are anti-Western fanatical idiots. Of course the reality is that many of them are affluent and well-educated, even by Western academic institutions.

Not saying that what you say is untrue -- since a person in Jordan is exposed to a different cultural memory than I am, he or she will see the world through a different lens. Not disputing that. My beef is with the framing of the relationship of these two cultures as one or the other, with no in between, nuance, cross-fertilization, dynamism. What this does, I think, is make a person see things in a two-color perspective, and that's trouble.

[Abcdxxxx]

Originally Posted by theapportioner

Not saying that what you say is untrue -- since a person in Jordan is exposed to a different cultural memory than I am, he or she will see the world through a different lens. Not disputing that. My beef is with the framing of the relationship of these two cultures as one or the other, with no in between, nuance, cross-fertilization, dynamism. What this does, I think, is make a person see things in a two-color perspective, and that's trouble.

I'm not disagreeing with that....but it shouldn't negate the point that this is crucial to understanding the situation when talking about such an ancient civilization...more so then when talking about Europe etc. It's the only way to understand why Syria, and Iran would offer help to Saddam without playing into this "ahhhh they ALL hate America, and the West, and Imperialism, and Israel, and WE do terrible things" cliche .... because it's really missing the point entirely...and that too plays into this "two-color perspective" that you think is trouble.