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VinceZeb · #26

Do you believe that most people in the West Bank and Gaza want to live under Arafat and fight all day? If that were the case, then they shouldn’t have a state, should they? If they did not try to kill Israeli citizens, they Israel would not have a reason to attack them.

KevinTheOmnivore · #27

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Originally Posted by VinceZeb

Do you believe that most people in the West Bank and Gaza want to live under Arafat and fight all day?

No.

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If that were the case, then they shouldn’t have a state, should they?

moot.

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If they did not try to kill Israeli citizens, they Israel would not have a reason to attack them.

This is very naive. I'm not dismissing the suicide bombings, but I am dismissing your assumption that this is all merely self-defense on the part of the Israelis.

Abcdxxxx · #28

Kevin : The Palestinians were never at war with Israel as part of the War of Independence. Contrary to whatever revitionist websites YOU read there were ALSO Jews living in mandate Palestine, and some of these cities had an Old Yeshuv MAJORITY. Of the 900,000 Jewish refugees, nearly 600,000 were absorbed by Israel after it's creation. Close to half of Israel's Jewish citizens are these original refugees, and their descendants. No, they're not merely the descendents of the Jews that lived there 200 years ago - they're descendents of Jews that go back at least 2000 years ago.

Apportioner - Yes israel is a part of the UN, and have been the punching bag for HUNDREDS of resolutions against them. I'd find this a legit point if you could point me to one resolution condemining the actions of the other nations against Palestinian refugees..or perhaps the terrorist actions against Israel. In the meantime, Israel has been scapegoating by a UN that holds them to a double standard we haven't even applied to Rwanda, Iraq, etc.

KevinTheOmnivore · #29

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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Contrary to whatever revitionist websites YOU read there were ALSO Jews living in mandate Palestine,

I never said otherwise, and...

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and some of these cities had an Old Yeshuv MAJORITY.

Such as? Just out of curiosity, and a timeline would be cool....

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Of the 900,000 Jewish refugees, nearly 600,000 were absorbed by Israel after it's creation. Close to half of Israel's Jewish citizens are these original refugees, and their descendants. No, they're not merely the descendents of the Jews that lived there 200 years ago - they're descendents of Jews that go back at least 2000 years ago.

The influx of Jews moving into the region throughout the 20th Century, to my understanding, paled the numbers living there at the time. Your estimates don't seem to make sense.

Abcdxxxx · #30

Hebron before the massacres. Jaffa. Many small villages had a Jewish majority with Sabras born to that land before, and during the mandate period.

As of the 1947 patition, Jews were the majority within the areas alloted to them by the resolution, and in Jerusalem.

Kevin: "The influx of Jews moving into the region throughout the 20th Century, to my understanding, paled the numbers living there at the time. Your estimates don't seem to make sense."

You're confused, so I'll rephrase this. Around the time of Israel's independence, 600,000 of the 900,000 displaced Jews exiled from various Arabic nations settled within Israel. Understand? These 600,000 Arabic Jews, and their DESCENDENTS make up nearly half of Israel's current population not including sabras actually born on the land itself. These are Jews that wandered that land and settled in various parts, for thousands of years. They are truly semetic people, who never set foot in Europe or the US unless it was on vacation. International laws regarding population change overs make this relevant, and you're going to see a huge movement to recognize this fact along with information to back these stats up... cause they're about to start going after billions of dollars in stolen assets, etc.

Also - I'm not sure this really means much but if one were to do the same comparison with Palestinian refugees... the orginal 650,000 refugees and their descendents are said to only make up 2% of the current entire Arab state population.

KevinTheOmnivore · #31

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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

As of the 1947 patition, Jews were the majority within the areas alloted to them by the resolution, and in Jerusalem.

How'd they manage this?

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You're confused, so I'll rephrase this. Around the time of Israel's independence, 600,000 of the 900,000 displaced Jews exiled from various Arabic nations settled within Israel. Understand? These 600,000 Arabic Jews, and their DESCENDENTS make up nearly half of Israel's current population not including sabras actually born on the land itself. These are Jews that wandered that land and settled in various parts, for thousands of years. They are truly semetic people, who never set foot in Europe or the US unless it was on vacation. International laws regarding population change overs make this relevant, and you're going to see a huge movement to recognize this fact along with information to back these stats up... cause they're about to start going after billions of dollars in stolen assets, etc.

So you're essentially saying that current day Israel is greatly a product of emmigrants during the 1940s...? And how does this conflict with the point I made to Vince?

Ronnie Raygun · #32

If the indians want all "their" land back let them try to take it.

If they succeed, it's all theirs.

Anonymous · #33

good idea

Protoclown · #34

Can we arm them first?

Abcdxxxx · #35

Kevin - Areas like Jaffa were undeveloped land. The majority of what became Israel was unoccupied. What little land that was purchased, was sold to Jews at TEN TIMES the market rate in the United States for top notch land. Villages like Hebron always had a Jewish majority before Arabs killed them off. There were always Jewish Palestinians. There were ALWAYS Jews living in that land. There are semetic Jews. Many Jewish familys go back as far or farther then Arab faimlys. Israel was not colonized by Europeans. The mandate areas were carving up ARABIC land.... Palestinians were part of a pan-Arabism nation, viewing themselves as part of the same nation as Jordan, etc. Jewish refugees exiled from Arabic land were relocated to parts of Israel once partially owned by Arabs in an acceptable and legal manner. The land was Arabic land, not Palestinian land. The term "Palestinian" was never indigenous to a specific people. Arab Palestinians were pawns of Arab ogligarchies and monarchies, and their mistreatment was at the hands of some of the most corrupt regimes on the planet. While hundreds of billions of Arab petrodollars have created vast palaces for the ruling elite and a third world for the rest, Jewish philanthropy took a socialist ethic to create a Western standard of living out of a territory that consisted of nothng but a few fenced in collective farms, and poverty stricken villages.

Any attempt to downplay such truths plays into hate speak, and anti-Jewish revitionism.

Anonymous · #36

I would like to run inspections in the reservations first, though, so we can be reasonably sure they can't fight back much.

FS · #37

But sell them components for biological weapons first, in exchange for peyote.

KevinTheOmnivore · #38

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Originally Posted by Abcdxxxx

Kevin - Areas like Jaffa were undeveloped land. The majority of what became Israel was unoccupied. What little land that was purchased, was sold to Jews at TEN TIMES the market rate in the United States for top notch land.

The "majority" of it? I find this hard to believe....

I'm sure the one guy who sold it made off well, but it also resulted in the eviction of Arab tennent farmers, who at one point or another may have owned the land they were being removed from.

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Villages like Hebron always had a Jewish majority before Arabs killed them off. There were always Jewish Palestinians. There were ALWAYS Jews living in that land. There are semetic Jews. Many Jewish familys go back as far or farther then Arab faimlys. Israel was not colonized by Europeans. The mandate areas were carving up ARABIC land.... Palestinians were part of a pan-Arabism nation, viewing themselves as part of the same nation as Jordan, etc. Jewish refugees exiled from Arabic land were relocated to parts of Israel once partially owned by Arabs in an acceptable and legal manner. The land was Arabic land, not Palestinian land. The term "Palestinian" was never indigenous to a specific people. Arab Palestinians were pawns of Arab ogligarchies and monarchies, and their mistreatment was at the hands of some of the most corrupt regimes on the planet. While hundreds of billions of Arab petrodollars have created vast palaces for the ruling elite and a third world for the rest,

I agree, but I believe a feeling of nationalism came about as a RESULT of the immigration, as a result of feeling threatened by the Jews who they definitely hated and saw as a disease, I'll admit.

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Jewish philanthropy took a socialist ethic to create a Western standard of living out of a territory that consisted of nothng but a few fenced in collective farms, and poverty stricken villages.

I don't disagree, and I think Israel is far more progressive in many ways, at least within their boards, than most other states, including America.

However, lets not forget that the Arabs likewise have a strong history and culture that isn't as backward and barbaric as I seem to think you're implying.

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Any attempt to downplay such truths plays into hate speak, and anti-Jewish revitionism.

Call it revisionist if you like, but why in the name of God is it anti-Jewish??? Why is ANY criticism levied against Israel antisemetic?? WHY!?

theapportioner · #39

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Apportioner - Yes israel is a part of the UN, and have been the punching bag for HUNDREDS of resolutions against them. I'd find this a legit point if you could point me to one resolution condemining the actions of the other nations against Palestinian refugees..or perhaps the terrorist actions against Israel. In the meantime, Israel has been scapegoating by a UN that holds them to a double standard we haven't even applied to Rwanda, Iraq, etc.

I only noticed this now. Dating back decades, approximately 70 resolutions against Israel, to my understanding, not HUNDREDS. And most of the United States vetoes have involved Israel. But that means that 70 or so resolutions had passive or active American support. I don't deny that they've been picked on -- they have, and anti-semitism is a part of it. But speaking of double standards, the United States is going to obliterate the Iraqi regime allegedly because they violated a bunch of resolutions. We are Israel's best friend, basically.

???

Abcdxxxx · #40

Appportioner - So you're saying the US plays favorites by vetoing or obstaining from resolutions you admit are often antisemetic? Huh? Isn't that just voting responsibly ?

Of 175 Security Councils Resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel and 429 of 690 UN General Assembly (UNGA) resolutions condemned Israel on a wide range of topics. The UN has an anti-Israel bias and the US often obstains from voting rather then use their Seecurity Council veto....and in several important cases has even voted in favor of such resolutions. The US only just recently (July 2002) announced then would veto any such resolutions that didn't make equal mention of terrorist violence against Israel. It should also be mentioned that it took 50 years for Israel to sit on a regional council...they were the only member wihout a position in a regional group..and now they sit as "temporary" members of the Western European group, because they have been barred from the Asian group they rightfully belong in.